Who the hell advised Trum to bomb Syria?

...Whatever was in the minds of those lying about WMDs to justify launching the Iraq War, the consequences of fucking it up this badly were not among them...
True only for those craftily sold the story of a cheap and quick victory. Unending quagmire for the US is of no concern to the true masterminds in Tel Aviv and fellow rabid Zionist neocon Israel-first Jews in Washington. Continual chaos and fragmentation along religious and ethnic lines is precisely what such evil shits wanted and have got. The same underway in Syria now, and pushed relentlessly hard to repeat for Iran. Try Googling 'Greater Israel' and 'Yinon plan' and learn how it all really fits together.
I gave pertinent links in #26 and #33. Nobody has been game to try and challenge the content. Just one entity's fingerprints are all over it. With however much partnering from fellow Zionists infesting every level of US politics, media, defense and intelligence arms. Similarly but to a lesser extent in UK/EU.
 
It has to end within 60 days - at least, so reads the law.
And what will be done if after the 60 days they have not won yet? I imagine a Congress insisting that the US has to stop, lol.
You have consistently referred to his rhetoric as supporting your opinion of his comparatively peaceful and isolationist tendencies, his reasonable nature as a businessman, etc.
So what? I'm used to use all evidence available. This does not mean that I consider this evidence as serious or reliable. Campaign rhetorics.
 
Now it becomes really funny, with the Syrian side making claims that the coalition airforce have bombed some chemical weapons storage of Daesh.
https://www.almasdarnews.com/articl...mb-isis-chemical-depot-deir-ezzor-syrian-mod/
DAMASCUS, SYRIA (1:30 P.M.) – The US-coalition Air Force has conducted airstrikes against ISIS positions in the eastern city of Deir Ezzor, targeting a chemical depot for the terror group which resulted in the death of hundreds of militants as well as civilian, the Syrian Ministry of Defense said in an official statement.

“Yesterday between 17:30 – 17:50 p.m., the so-called anti-ISIS coalition fighter jets struck an ISIS position in Hatla village to the east of Deir Ezzor. After the airstrike, a huge white cloud was formed –later on turned yellow – as a result of an explosion in a chemical depot. A hug fire broke out until 22:30 p.m. Hundreds have been killed – including civilians – as a result of breathing toxic materials,” the statement detailed.

The official statement said this incident confirms beyond any doubt that “terror groups, particularly ISIS and Jabhet al-Nusra, already own chemical weapons, and have the ability to obtain, transport, store and use such chemical agents with the help of some regional countries. This also stresses the fact that those terror groups are coordinating with its sponsors to accuse the Syrian Arab Army of using chemical weapons.”
 
The damage I have seen on TV seems a poor return on some hundred million worth of bombs.

I wasn't paying attention but I am sure I heard one of our politicians, on the radio, saying North Korea is a thread because they could bomb us...

I guess that means North Korea is going to cop it very soon.

Alex
 
snip"....with its sponsors to accuse the Syrian Arab Army of using chemical weapons by using them on their own fighters and families.” Bah! What rubbish!
 
It has to end within 60 days - at least, so reads the law.

Nonsense. It was nothing of the kind - it was threatening and bullying to a remarkable degree.
You have consistently referred to his rhetoric as supporting your opinion of his comparatively peaceful and isolationist tendencies, his reasonable nature as a businessman, etc.

I allege no such thing. Why are you repeatedly and consistently misrepresenting my posts?

Here's a part of the "oil argument", again:
1)The prospect of increasing their own profits, or at a minimum preventing Saddam from reducing them, was easily visible and and obvious available motive for Western oil interests, and those interests were very well represented among those directly responsible for deciding to launch that war. They stood to avoid a serious threat of loss, and instead make a ton of money, by invading Iraq. And they did.
2) Saddam's danger to the petrodollar was famous, prominent, and becoming urgent - the sanctions were dissolving, and he had made good on his threat to begin trading in other currencies. Iran, initially more prudent, was warming to the idea, as Saddam made big money by the move.

You said you found the "oil argument" inexplicable, was all. I helped you to understand it.

I directly pointed to the very essay you linked, observing that its analysis omitted all mention of the currency and petrodollar issue, failed to consider the influence of sanctions or their impending demise, largely ignored the profit analysis and potential for Western vs other oil interests in the advent of that war, and so forth. In other words it omitted - failed to even consider, did not even dismiss - several major factors in play with regard to the "oil argument", including the most prominent accusations being made by those advancing the "oil argument", and specifically any of my posting here - which was supposedly why you linked it. What is your explanation for that? Do you think such a strawman from that source can possibly have been completely accidental?

To repeat: all parties involved were of course looking at the future. Checking the threats posed by Saddam's initiatives, gaining the opportunities offered by military conquest of the Iraqi oil fields, were all future possibilities and payoffs. Saddam after sanctions, with Iran looking to follow his lead, was not only projected to control significantly more than 3% of the world's crude oil within a couple years, but the more than 3% cheapest and best.

These people are not children - oil company execs routinely deal in decades, long term gambles and payoffs. The longest horizon of Iraq's threats and payoffs was merely years away - the shorter ones were immediate, predicated on the war itself, and remarkably free of the "threat" aspect. The big oil companies that participated in and supported the launch of the Iraq War made many millions of dollars in no-risk extra profits just from that, and they knew they would going in - regardless of outcome. The bright future was bonus.
My explanation for why Yergin did not consider these issues you think are so important is simple: that in his opinion, as an expert in the relevant field, they were just not as important as you seem to think.

That certainly fits with my own perspective on events, which was that of someone working for an oil major throughout the buildup to the invasion and afterwards. I cannot recall any talk at all, whether serious business or coffee machine gossip, about Saddam posing any sort of major threat to the business or to the world's economy. We talked of course about the oil price being likely to shoot up when hostilities started, and about the likelihood that Iraqi oil would probably continue to be unavailable for a while afterwards. But frankly, it was just one of many sources that come and go. The traders made money out of the ups and downs - that was their job after all, just as they did when the Kuwait invasion came along, or the Iraq-Iran War, or Chernobyl. All such things are part of life's rich pageant if you work for an integrated oil major, and require reconfigurations and adjustments, but very few are the events that actually threaten the business.
 
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And what will be done if after the 60 days they have not won yet? I imagine a Congress insisting that the US has to stop, lol.
Actually, yeah - if Congress is hostile, the funding gets cut off. Most Presidents arrange things in advance, to avoid that. This Republican Congress is unlikely to be much of an obstacle - it was pressuring Obama to be more violent.
So what? I'm used to use all evidence available. This does not mean that I consider this evidence as serious or reliable. Campaign rhetorics.
You have in fact used the content of fragments of Trump's rhetoric - carefully selected - as evidence of some kind of ideology or political philosophy, according to which he is likely to act. You thought he was likely to be "isolationist", for example, and less likely than Clinton to risk violence in the Middle East.

So much did you rely on Trump's rhetoric that you had to find an explanation for his military violence in Syria (and elsewhere) in some kind of "deep State" conversion or pressure on him. His behavior in office strikes you as a change from what he promised. Informed Americans simply recognized his behavior as typical of his political kind and expected of him. He's fascist, childish, that's how they roll - Trump stepped up the military violence, the drone strikes and so forth, his first week in office. Absolutely nobody on the American left was the least bit surprised by that.

You were fooled. If you look at who else was fooled, and is now reacting with surprise or disappointment, you will see people easily recognized as being longtime chumps and patsies of the rightwing authoritarian propaganda mills in the US. You are no exception.
My explanation for why Yergin did not consider these issues you think are so important is simple: that in his opinion, as an expert in the relevant field, they were just not as important as you seem to think.
Ok. But in omitting them, Yergin ignored completely the "oil argument" as it was advanced then and has proved explanatory since. He did not rebut it. He rebutted instead, for some reason, an argument nobody was or is making. And you do likewise, by invoking him. If your point is simply to declare the "oil argument" unimportant, without considering it, you have done so - but that goes a long way toward explaining why you find the Iraq invasion inexplicable. A great deal of US foreign policy is bound to be inexplicable to those who do not consider the interests of the Halliburtons and Goldman Sachs in the room - or the Cheneys, Tillersons, Kochs, Bushs, Bannons, and Condoleezas, sitting at the decision table.
I cannot recall any talk at all, whether serious business or coffee machine gossip, about Saddam posing any sort of major threat to the business or to the world's economy.
So?
He was a threat to the profit margins and the petrodollar, on the one hand, and the war an opportunity for potentially large gains, on the other - and interested parties to that were directly involved in the decision to launch war. That's the oil argument.
 
Unless the ultimate goal is to destabilize the middle east, the actions of our government have been the actions of a mad man.
 
You have in fact used the content of fragments of Trump's rhetoric - carefully selected - as evidence of some kind of ideology or political philosophy, according to which he is likely to act. You thought he was likely to be "isolationist", for example, and less likely than Clinton to risk violence in the Middle East.
Yes. And the arguments I have used remain reasonable. Campaign lies are usually lies in agreement with what is expected to be the mainstream opinion. Friendship with Russia does not fit into this - one would think that to propose with in America would be counter-productive for winning elections.

But this type of reasoning is also only plausible reasoning and cannot give, even in principle, any certainty. And, indeed, I continue to think that what we observe now is the result of the deep state having got power - against Trump. And Trump playing nice to what he is told to do. I acknowledge that there is some probability that I was fooled - that Trump was, from the start, a good friend of Clinton and they faked the whole show to secure that Clinton's warmongering reaches power, or different variants of Trump wanting war with Syria from the start. But I was not fooled very much even in this case, because I had this possibility in mind too. Simply it seemed not very plausible, and now it became a little bit more plausible.
 
Yes. And the arguments I have used remain reasonable. Campaign lies are usually lies in agreement with what is expected to be the mainstream opinion.Friendship with Russia does not fit into this - one would think that to propose with in America would be counter-productive for winning elections.

But this type of reasoning is also only plausible reasoning and cannot give, even in principle, any certainty. And, indeed, I continue to think that what we observe now is the result of the deep state having got power - against Trump.
It was not plausible reasoning, and that was pointed out to you at the time. Trump was not lying, but bullshitting, and he was not interested in mainstream opinion of content, but in motivating his base by way of attitude and performance, motivating the core Republican voter. He knows his base admires and respects Putin, and admires Trump for apparently earning Putin's respect, so voila. Trump's base is like you, in that regard - you have much in common with the Trump voter.

And so like them you failed to comprehend the role of speech in Trump's campaign, because you do not perceive fascism - you have a blind spot. And so when a stereotypical fascist takes office and acts in complete accordance with his nature and expressed opinions and lifelong habits, acts exactly as a stereotypical fascist bigmouth and strongman would act in his position, you see him as changed.

There is no mystery about Trump's rocketing a Syrian airbase for any damn reason handy (after carefully warning the Russians - he didn't want to kill any Russians). Any of seventeen people could have suggested it, or he might have thought it up on his own. It's completely in character, right down to minor damage at major expense.
 
Unless the ultimate goal is to destabilize the middle east, the actions of our government have been the actions of a mad man.
So? Old news again. Nixon, Reagan, and W, were all not just elected but re-elected. It's what Americans voted for.
 
I acknowledge that there is some probability that I was fooled - that Trump was, from the start, a good friend of Clinton and they faked the whole show to secure that Clinton's warmongering reaches power, or different variants of Trump wanting war with Syria from the start.
your main mistake was to assess Trump as if he was "rational", "sane", empathetic, reasonable. He is none of those. He doesn't even know what good friendship is...
 
your main mistake was to assess Trump as if he was "rational", "sane", empathetic, reasonable. He is none of those. He doesn't even know what good friendship is...
He has obviously known things about how to win elections far better than all the other candidates. So, no reason to expect that he is stupid. But why do you think I think he is "empathetic"????
That he has to fight the deep state (and that he will be a weak president because he will be weakened by this fight) was clear from the start.
 
He has obviously known things about how to win elections far better than all the other candidates. So, no reason to expect that he is stupid. But why do you think I think he is "empathetic"????
That he has to fight the deep state (and that he will be a weak president because he will be weakened by this fight) was clear from the start.
no you still haven't quite grasped what I mean...

Opinon:

When dealing with mental health issues like this one there is difficulty applying "normal" assessment due to the irrational, and unpredictable nature of it's outcomes. He might be the smartest man on the planet but this in no way is indicative of his mental and emotional health.

There is no doubt that Trumps is very clever... but due to his extreme self focus (vanity) his intelligence is tunneled and focused in a way that makes it generate what appears to be stupid but very clever results. A paradoxical and infuriating state for those who have to provide care and support -( ie. Spicer must be running in circles trying to keep up) and for those who have to pic up the pieces after he leaves a mess.

The biggest concern is his apparent impulsive decisions / actions that are being justified post-event rather than pre-event, thus reinforcing the problem.
Suggesting he is just a "deep state puppet" is only post-event justification that avoids dealing with the real issue and that is impulsive and self harming behavior. (that happens to include among it's victims, the global population as well)
 
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When dealing with mental health issues like this one there is difficulty applying "normal" assessment due to the irrational, and unpredictable nature of it's outcomes.
So you think this is a mental health issue. I don't think so. The problem is the state of mind of a majority of the American elites, the war faction. I would not name such a large part of the elite mentally insane. But they are the problem. Without this support of the war faction, everybody would tell Trump that starting some war would be completely insane, describe him some horrible pictures of what could happen if he would start such insane things, and he would not do it.

But here the generals have proposed what he could do, and he has chosen the most mild reaction among the proposed ones. Hitlary wanted much more - to destroy all the Syrian aircraft. So, I see no base to consider Trump's mental health as being the main problem.
 
The damage I have seen on TV seems a poor return on some hundred million worth of bombs.
Not when you have a lot of stock in the company that makes those bombs (as Trump does.) From his perspective it's a great return on investment - his approval rating will go up and he will make money on his stocks.
 
But here the generals have proposed what he could do, and he has chosen the most mild reaction among the proposed ones.
Or the most severe one they would countenance, and could promise to get out of cleanly.
Hitlary wanted much more - to destroy all the Syrian aircraft. So, I see no base to consider Trump's mental health as being the main problem.
When was that? If they reported that on Fox News or one of the other cable outlets Trump watches, that may be where he got the idea. He watches a lot of wingnut TV.
 
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/06/politics/hillary-clinton-syria-assad/ says at 6. of April: "Hillary Clinton: US should 'take out' Assad's air fields". Note, all air fields, and forever, not one for one day.

(Ok, its a video of Hillary, so probably right wing nonsense, but so what, SCNR.)
so do you think that taking out one , two or 20 airfields makes any difference? The strike that was made was called an act of aggression by Assad and Putin. When in fact it was clearly an act of war... no more or less than taking out 20 air fields.
Hillary knows this all too well... why stop at only one if you are going to go to war go to war... don't pussy foot around....
When Trump launched his illegal strike he committed an act of war.. simple...
The interesting thing is that both Syria and Russia played it down and called it an act of aggression instead, which I find rather intriguing.
 
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