Who speaks for Islam?

S.A.M.

uniquely dreadful
Valued Senior Member
An excerpt:

Does Islam need a Central Command?

The question of authority in Islam is as old as the religion itself, and the historian will be the first to tell you that since time immemorial countless Muslim scholars from Ibn Taimiyya to al-Ghazali to Ibn Khaldun have been grappling with the question of power and discursive authority among Muslims, to address the fundamental question: 'Who speaks for Islam?'

But the real question that has to be addressed is this: would the centralisation of power and discursive authority put an end to the rumour mongering and hate speeches? Or would it not merely add to the increased power of the state and result in the further co-optation of Islam and Islamic discourse in the country? Is there not the very real problem that once religious discursive authority is bolstered by power and institutionalised it merely ends up being yet another appendage to state power?

Islam began as a reaction against the corruption of the Bedouin tribes and their feudal customs, and it is the egalitarian ethos of Islam that rebelled against such feudal power that today fuels the differences of thought, belief and praxis among Muslims the world over. How can Muslim states ever contain, police and monopolise the discourse of Islam without striking at its very ethical and philosophical heart?

For many a Muslim government today, a reality check is in order. Rapid development since the post-colonial era, accompanied by mass migration to the cities and urbanisation, accelerated by globalisation and exposure to global media and trends of thought means that plurality of opinion and belief is greater now than ever before. Muslim elites have to realise that this pluralism can and should be turned into an asset, and not seen as a threat per se. While it is true that the likes of Osama bin Laden and Abu Bakar Bashir exist out there to antagonise and provoke the masses, there are also countless Muslim intellectuals and scholars of note whose ideas are path breaking, revolutionary and modern. The way to prevent the slippage towards a more communitarian and violent register is not to close the doors of free speech but to create the framework for a civil society where ideas can be discussed maturely and in the open.

This will surely take time, and perhaps the Muslim world does not have much time at its disposal. But nobody ever said that creating a society of mature responsible citizens was an immediate process that can be fast-tracked. What is required however are the constitutional and institutional guarantees that such a civil society will not come under the domination of a small self-interested elite. That is why the remedy to the hyperbolic rhetoric of the likes of Osama lies not in more security laws, but in a free media, an open university system, the flourishing of texts and discourses and the rule of law that will guarantee that all citizens abide by the same rules.

No, the Muslim world does not need a 'Muslim Central Command Headquarters' that dispatches government-approved fatwas by the minute. But it does need the space to think aloud and to dissent. In time, the angry voices of the likes of Osama will be drowned out not by government propaganda, but by ordinary Muslims who will simply say 'enough is enough' and claim their faith back for themselves.

http://www.aseanfocus.com/asiananalysis/article.cfm?articleID=1017
 
Last edited:
The problem as i see it is that there is no 'true' islam, theres no real accurate way to guage whos got the right slant on things. Therefore islam can easily fall into the hands of the bloodthirsty or the moderate, as the koran leaves more than enough room for both interpreations.
So really anyone can say they speak on behalf of islam - and therein lies the problem.
The only way to get around it as i see it is to take away the need for uprise and conflict, i could almost garantee that if you brought immediate wealth, good healthcare and sanitation the islamic middle eastern nations would quickly fall in for a more moderate and non-practicing form of islam.
Their religion would become quaint custom rather than a live-and-die by the koran ethos.

However i dont see any of this happnening soon :(
 
The problem as i see it is that there is no 'true' islam, theres no real accurate way to guage whos got the right slant on things. Therefore islam can easily fall into the hands of the bloodthirsty or the moderate, as the koran leaves more than enough room for both interpreations.
So really anyone can say they speak on behalf of islam - and therein lies the problem.
The only way to get around it as i see it is to take away the need for uprise and conflict, i could almost garantee that if you brought immediate wealth, good healthcare and sanitation the islamic middle eastern nations would quickly fall in for a more moderate and non-practicing form of islam.
Their religion would become quaint custom rather than a live-and-die by the koran ethos.

However i dont see any of this happnening soon :(

Hmm does that mean that you see the problems in the ME nations to be a result of extreme religious interpretation? That moderate Palestinians would no longer care about segregation? Moderate Iraqis would welcome occupation?

What about studies that show most terrorists coming from secular, educated and comparatively well-to-do households? And not all Islamists?
In writing my book on suicide attackers, I had researchers scour Lebanese sources to collect martyr videos, pictures and testimonials and the biographies of the Hezbollah bombers. Of the 41, we identified the names, birth places and other personal data for 38. Shockingly, only eight were Islamic fundamentalists. Twenty-seven were from leftist political groups like the Lebanese Communist Party and the Arab Socialist Union. Three were Christians, including a female high-school teacher with a college degree. All were born in Lebanon.
How do your conclusions explain this?
During the Buddhist crisis in South Vietnam in the spring of 1963, a monk immolated himself in downtown Saigon in protest against the government's favoritism of Catholicism.

Malcolm Browne, an Associated Press photographer on assignment in Vietnam, was forewarned of the suicide. He caught it on film and the horrifying image appeared on the front pages of newspapers around the world.

Attempts were made to downplay the significance of the suicide. Browne was accused of disloyalty by allowing himself to be used in a propaganda ploy. Madame Nhu, the official hostess of the South Vietnamese government, sister-in-law of the bachelor president Ngo Dinh Diem, and wife of the head of the secret police, called the burning a "barbeque" and offered to light the match for the next one.

In fact, the vast majority of South Vietnamese were Buddhists. In 1963, the Buddhists were labeled "communists" in order to negate the meaning of their sacrifice. Today, suicide bombers are called terrorists, not communists.

In August a second Buddhist monk burned himself to death in Saigon on the day before Jacqueline Kennedy delivered a baby prematurely. These suicides prompted President Kennedy, ...to set in motion the wheels that resulted in the overthrow and murder of South Vietnam's President Diem and his brother Nhu. It would take 12 years, over 50,000 American dead, millions of dead Vietnamese and billions of wasted dollars before the United States reached the same conclusion as the Buddhist monks who killed themselves in 1963.
 
Last edited:
What im essentially putting forward is that religious fundamentalism that seeks to kill in the name of that religion can generally be correlated with povery/low-standards of living.
Increase living standards are people are far far less inclined to pursue destructive doctorines. Can you kill the war-mongering religious meme outright? no but you can drecrease the odds of it taking hold.
I guess it relates somewhat to the saying 'any society is only 3 meals away from revolution'
 
What im essentially putting forward is that religious fundamentalism that seeks to kill in the name of that religion can generally be correlated with povery/low-standards of living.
Increase living standards are people are far far less inclined to pursue destructive doctorines.
I guess it relates somewhat to the saying 'any society is only 3 meals away from revolution'

So how does that explain US military interventions?

And the promotion of Third World debt and conflict by First World countries?

Factors such as the following lead to further misery for the developing nations and keep them dependent on developed nations:

* Poor countries must export more in order to raise enough money to pay off their debts in a timely manner.
* Because there are so many nations being asked or forced into the global market place—before they are economically and socially stable and ready—and told to concentrate on similar cash crops and commodities as others, it is like a huge price war.
* The resources then become even cheaper from the poorer regions (which favors consumers in the West).
* Governments then need to increase exports just to keep their currencies stable (which may not be sustainable, either) and earn foreign exchange with which to help pay off debts.
* Governments therefore must:
o spend less
o reduce consumption
o remove or decrease financial regulations
o and so on.
* Over time then:
o the value of labor decreases
o capital flows become more volatile
o and we get into a spiralling race to the bottom
o social unrest is often one result leading to “IMF riots” and protests around the world.
* These nations are then told to peg their currencies to the dollar. But keeping the exchange rate stable is costly due to measures such as increased interest rates, etc.
* Investors obviously concerned about their assets and interests can then pull out very easily if things get tough
o In worst cases capital flight can lead to economic collapses like we have seen in the Asian/global financial crisis of 1997/98/99, Mexico, Brazil and many other places—of course, the blame by mainstream media and free trade economists is laid on emerging markets and their government’s restrictive or inefficient policies, crony capitalism etc, which is a cruel irony.
* When IMF donors keep the exchange rates in their favor, it often means that the poor nations remain poor, or get even poorer. Even the 1997/98/99 global economic financial crisis around the world can be partly blamed on structural adjustment and overly aggressive and early deregulation for emerging economies.
* Millions of children end up dying each year.
 
Last edited:
Do you really think the iraq invasion was religiously motivated by the US? i find it impossible to see how this sort of position can be backed to be honest, although ive heard it put forward a few times before.
 
Do you really think the iraq invasion was religiously motivated by the US? i find it impossible to see how this sort of position can be backed to be honest, although ive heard it put forward a few times before.

I don't, which is exactly what I am saying.:)

I was referring to this:

heliocentric said:
...can generally be correlated with povery/low-standards of living. Increase living standards are people are far far less inclined to pursue destructive doctorines.
 
Last edited:
Ah my mistake i should have put 'religious' doctorines there instead of simply 'doctorines'.
Obviously a lack of poverty simply creates a different breed of violence rather than a lack of violence per se.
People wont be half as compelled to destroy in the name of god in a wealthy country but that doesnt mean they wont be compelled to destroy under the banner of another half a dozen things.
So i guess what im saying is we cant change our violent nature but we can change the causes/rationale...or something, :p
 
Ah my mistake i should have put 'religious' doctorines there instead of simply 'doctorines'.
Obviously a lack of poverty simply creates a different breed of violence rather than a lack of violence per se.
People wont be half as compelled to destroy in the name of god in a wealthy country but that doesnt mean they wont be compelled to destroy under the banner of another half a dozen things.
So i guess what im saying is we cant change our violent nature but we can change the causes/rationale...or something, :p

Sadly, yes.:(
 
sam, no matter what you say, or what "reports" you "quote", I will continue to know in my heart that not following Christ leads to sin and jihads.

We are at war with these satanists for the salvation of our very souls.
 
sam, no matter what you say, or what "reports" you "quote", I will continue to know in my heart that not following Christ leads to sin and jihads.

We are at war with these satanists for the salvation of our very souls.

umm okay:confused:
 
He's saying that radical Islam isn't the result of broken / missing lines of communication, but rather its the result of Christian magic being better than Islamic magic.
 
I will continue to know in my heart that not following Christ leads to sin and jihads.

We are at war with these satanists for the salvation of our very souls.

Dont forget ALL the hindus, buddhists, taoists, anamists, jews, wiccans, bingo players...etc etc etc.

Bloody heathens!

Into the chasm of fire!!!
 
What im essentially putting forward is that religious fundamentalism that seeks to kill in the name of that religion can generally be correlated with povery/low-standards of living.
Increase living standards are people are far far less inclined to pursue destructive doctorines. Can you kill the war-mongering religious meme outright? no but you can drecrease the odds of it taking hold.
I guess it relates somewhat to the saying 'any society is only 3 meals away from revolution'
Yeah, it’s hard to say. History is littered with positive and negative correlatiuons. To me, even more than religion, is government. Communist China, North Korea, Vietnam, Russia etc.. after all, had no religion - but were very poor.

So, IMHO, good governess is the key.

A Democratic government, with a clear separation of religion/God(s) is the best. Espeacially when combined with a common culture and likeminded people. That is, Democracies work best when most people feel that most people are working for the betterment of one another, not one's "tribe", but the society in general.

Michael
 
Back
Top