Who are we? to who do we belong?

[Shadow1]

first, guess from what country are these girls

just gues. i know what are you going to think, anyway, imagine you don't even know me, and now guess.













in tunisia, we had aloot of civilisations passed by, there's the pre-history ear, date to 50 000 years ago, and... then carthage and phenicians, then romans, then vandal kingdom, then byzantine province, Arab invasion , Aghlabid Dynasty, Fatimid Dynasty, ottaman, Zirid Dynasty and the Banu Hillal, Norman invasions, Golden age,French protectorate(i prefer calling it the french invations!).
the arabic tribes, two actually, and i wish if they never came, because they came for their greed for the goods, and they did nothing but bad things. anyway
it's all in here:
http://lexicorient.com/e.o/tunisia.history.htm

so who are we geneticly? to whom do we belong? are we now should consider our selves maghrebians, or tunisians? as a category? do we have asian relations? because soem people, usually the country side people, look like asians and arabs, a mixture, sorry couldn't find pictures.

this is one of the tradional clothes
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_qH0OKbsF_48/SUTYdyWgMVI/AAAAAAAAAmY/YY9EKrurs8g/s400/tunisia_wedding.jpg

the maghreb as a hall, can be considered as a genetic pool.
what can we call our selves, to whom to we belong? we are arabs, because we speak arabic, our culture is very arabic, but still colored and mixed with many other cultures, also because we have some arabic genes in us, (we're not 100% arabs genetecly, everyone is a mixe of many kinds of different genes, well, most people, if i didnt say all) , some times, when you see a tunisian, you can't know where's is he from, generally to all arabs, but mostly to tunisian, and maghrebians as a hall, sometimes you can't know by just looking at him or her.
so as a final question, who are we? are we arabs, phenicians, europeans, asians? or what? should we label our selves as maghrebians?

 

[spidergoat]

They look vaguely Homo sapien. Am I right?

 

[Shadow1]

.

They look vaguely Homo sapien. Am I right?

first, aren't we all homo sapiens? also, as i said, we had alooot of different races, civilisations anc culutures, each civilisation and race come, add it's culture, and mixe it with the one that it is already their, intill here we are,
but what i meant asking, to who do we belong? what race are we? to what what culture should we label ours, should we label it to the arabian culture, or the maghrebian culture, that it is a mixture of many cultures. genetecly who are we, to whome should classify us, or we just can't, but we can just, for who want's to know his race and his genetic origin, make a DNA reserche, to know who are his and he's family ancestors, and track them even to other continents, but this kind of test that track our first genetic origin by DNA, still not known in here, it exist, but not very known yet.
so i think the question is clear. as for my sense, i feel that our culture, is more carthage, means roman or phenician or greece, and asian, like chinese and arabic, knowing that the arabic culture it self , was created from this mixe: greec+persian+chinese+indian+arabic+babelonian+and the other one i forgot it.
but the maghreb, doesn't look like the egyptian arabic culture, or the middle eastern arabic cultures, but it's close to the phenecian arabic cultures, like lebanon and sirya.
i'm very confused actually.

 

[spidergoat]

Genetically, there is no such thing as race.

 

[Shadow1]

.

Genetically, there is no such thing as race.

yeah, what i meant by race, scientificly, the hall human kind is a race, but i meant is, like, the black ones, the asian ones, the white ones, the red indians one(wait, i think their origin is asian, they went to america threw russia to alaska, anyway...) but there are different genes in different humans, like the genes of black people, that keep the informations to produce more black people, or for white people, and so on.

 

[Shadow1]

.

also, what's the first origin of the first arabs? knowing that arabs before islam, were making sure, that their arab well, i'll say race, their arab race stay pure, like the arabian horses, they wanted to keep their genes, today, and after islam, there's no suck thing called a pure arab, maybe there's is, some, but after islam, the arabic community and civlisations, opened it's doors to different races and civlisations, and exopanded to leave it's traces, as for maghreb, we are arabs, but also we are not arabs, we are both, we admit that we are arabs(in algeria and moroco, there's some people who consider them selves amazigh, but geneticly, i don't think they are correct, because we are all mixed together, arabs, berber(amazgih, means the free man, or the free spirit), phenicians, and and and...
looong story.
and i'm confused

 

[Café Cappuccino]

It seems to me you are over-concerned with some mythical purity, and more than that, I see in you mostly a desire to share prestige with some nation, such as the Arabs, so you can think "We are pure Arabs, a mighty race!" and feel good about it.

Quite frankly I don't believe you are your genes. Sean Lennon is 50% John Lennon, Jesse McCartney is 50% Paul McCartney. That is the most DNA of Lennon and McCartney anyone can possibly be on Earth. And yet they are ordinary musicians, barely deserving mention, altogether different from their immensely brilliant fathers.

Or take the Germans.
They are the people who can most say they share the DNA of Johann Sebastian Bach, Ludwig van Beethoven, George Frideric Handel, Felix Mendelssohn, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, etc. Composers of a glorious PAST.

Go to any German street and stand there. You will first die of hunger and exhaustion before finding a famous genius composer.

Still, a German isn't a famous genius composer until they demonstrate it. You can show all you want to everyone you find some attested family tree that shows you have Amadeus Wolfgang Mozart among your ancestors. But then again: SO WHAT? Are you a genius composer? No? Well that settles it!

Anyway, if you want to find national pride, you have just stated it: you descend from Cartheginians, Byzantines, Arabs, Normans, French.

Coming to think of it: you have more heritage than Saudi Arabians!

But then again, you are what you make of yourself, not who you descend from. What will your achievements be, the ones you can truly pride yourself from? Of course, this is also relative for me: we are not our achievements either, our inherent value and dignity are ABSOLUTE.

 

[spidergoat]

and i'm confused

I bet the ethnic backround of Tunisians is probably different for each individual.

 

[Shadow1]

.

It seems to me you are over-concerned with some mythical purity, and more than that, I see in you mostly a desire to share prestige with some nation, such as the Arabs, so you can think "We are pure Arabs, a mighty race!" and feel good about it.

what? no, that's bullshit, what i meant by that, is, that we're not arabs, we are, but we're not, also as i said, there's no such athing called actually the arabic race, also that's why i wondered what's it's origin, it was a side question. a mighty race? huh?
whatever...
you get me wrong, and i didnt even think about this mighty thing!

Quite frankly I don't believe you are your genes. Sean Lennon is 50% John Lennon, Jesse McCartney is 50% Paul McCartney. That is the most DNA of Lennon and McCartney anyone can possibly be on Earth. And yet they are ordinary musicians, barely deserving mention, altogether different from their immensely brilliant fathers.

to have a brillant or a stupid grandfather, doesnt mean to be like him, it depends on how you lived your life, and not genes, and i know that 50% thing, 50% from fother, and 50% mother, what i meant is in general, for example as you speak about the chinese race. and why are you saying things, that i didnt even said? i didn't said anything about like, for example my fother or my grandfother, or my parents were scientists, doesnt mean that i would be a scientist, i could be working in a shop in a corner, or in a big office, depends on the life experiance and how you lived your life, i don't know why you are talking nosense!!

Or take the Germans.
They are the people who can most say they share the DNA of Johann Sebastian Bach, Ludwig van Beethoven, George Frideric Handel, Felix Mendelssohn, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, etc. Composers of a glorious PAST.
Go to any German street and stand there. You will first die of hunger and exhaustion before finding a famous genius composer.
Still, a German isn't a famous genius composer until they demonstrate it. You can show all you want to everyone you find some attested family tree that shows you have Amadeus Wolfgang Mozart among your ancestors. But then again: SO WHAT? Are you a genius composer? No? Well that settles it!

again, first, i'm not that stupid to think like that, if my granfother is genius so i'm a ginus!
second, you didnt get my question, also it seems that you are geting the question wrong,
to who do we belong, doesnt mean to who, a person, or an inventor, whom, or who, i mean, to wich continent, to wich civlisation? as a hall, as a hall for our hall history or many civlisations mixed together to give the maghreb, but more specify i'm talking about tunisia, anyway, we had many many civlisation, many many mixed cultures, that gave a new one, unique for it's own, but the question is, for what civlisation do we belong more(we had our civilisation,[ like the aghlabid civilisation(it's an arabic one), and others, but those still related to the arabic one], so today, we got all, a mixed culture from all, but, to wich culture do we belong more, other arabs see us different(in the good way) and western see us different( also in a good way)
anyway, so, now did you get my question? and also, as a hall, as a republic, as a society people, to wich continent do we belong more, i mean about race, to wich race do we go along more with (i don't mean the relations, i mean the shared physical caracteristics) knowing that you can find tow people from the same country that are very different from each other, but still look like

Anyway, if you want to find national pride, you have just stated it: you descend from Cartheginians, Byzantines, Arabs, Normans, French.

national pride? my national pride is tunisian, not arab, not french, and not cartheginians, and for oyur information, cartheginians are phinicians, like in sirya, lebanon, greece, palastine, that side)

Coming to think of it: you have more heritage than Saudi Arabians!

do you know that saudi arabia never existed before, saudi arabia used to be a part of yemen, but some mafias and criminals, stole those lands, and maked it a country, and it's the same family.
the r uling one. just an info, and it's not from a very old.

But then again, you are what you make of yourself, not who you descend from. What will your achievements be, the ones you can truly pride yourself from? Of course, this is also relative for me: we are not our achievements either, our inherent value and dignity are ABSOLUTE.

yes i know, again, you get my topic in the wrong way, i didnt mean any pride or any descent to be like, i make my self, no one from my descents, do you think i'm that stupid to think like that? not even any idiot i know think like that. i think i explained to you again, what i meant by this topic in the previous replyies in this reply.
and actually i wasn't waiting you to say that.but thanks anyway......

 

[Shadow1]

.

I bet the ethnic backround of Tunisians is different for each individual.

nno, we are all tunisians, and we all share our culture, we are arabs, because we speak arabic, because we have an arabic culture, because they had arabs mixed with them, in the very very old times, and they mixed together, all together, as for my self, i consider my self tunisian, and then an arab. but the topic was about, to wich civlisation's culture, our's go along with.
also another thing i remembered, do you know kairouan? in it's golden age, it expanded, and became an educational, and economic and cultural center of the aghlabid empire, and it used to get many scholors from different parts, arabs, persians, europeans, so more mixing in here.
anyway..
:m: :shrug:

 

[spidergoat]

According to one genetic study while the vast majority of modern Tunisians identify themselves as Arabs, they are mainly the descendants of Berbers, the first peoples known to inhabit what is now Tunisia. Tunisians are also descended, to a lesser extent, from Semitic peoples (Phoenicians and Arabs) with a little less than 20% of the genetic material (Y-chromosome analysis) coming from the Middle East [6]. Other genetic studies found that "Tunisians did not show a significant level of differentiation with northern population"[7][8]. This suggests a fairly significant European input to Tunisian genetics compared to other neighbouring populations.{wiki}

 

[tablariddim]

If it's so important to you to know your true genealogy then get your DNA tested. You have to understand that ALL peoples have mixed genealogy and the latest scientific theory says that we are ALL descended from Africa. The San tribe of South Africa have the oldest genetic markers found on Earth and to see a group of them you would think you are seeing people from all around the world; some look European, some look Asian etc.

Wikipedia:
Spencer Wells' 2003 book The Journey of Man — in connection with National Geographic's Genographic Project — discusses a genetic analysis of the San and asserts their blood contains the oldest genetic markers found on Earth, describing the Bushmen as a type of "genetic Adam". While the Bushmen's Y-chromosomal DNA haplogroup (type A) is one of the oldest, it is different from the Y-chromosome haplogroup that is the least common denominator for the rest of humanity (type BT). Therefore, the Bushmen likely represents the oldest existing population, but it is one divergent from the rest of humanity and not a sole common ancestor. Genetic markers present on the y chromosome are passed down through thousands of generations in a relatively pure form. The documentary continues to trace these markers throughout the world, demonstrating that all of humankind can be traced back to the African continent and that the San are the oldest, most genetically unadulterated, remnant of humankind's ancient ancestors. More recent analysis suggests that the San may have been merely isolated from other original ancestral groups and then rejoined at a later date, re-mixing the human gene pool.[25]

 

[Shadow1]

.

If it's so important to you to know your true genealogy then get your DNA tested. You have to understand that ALL peoples have mixed genealogy and the latest scientific theory says that we are ALL descended from Africa. The San tribe of South Africa have the oldest genetic markers found on Earth and to see a group of them you would think you are seeing people from all around the world; some look European, some look Asian etc.

Wikipedia:
Spencer Wells' 2003 book The Journey of Man — in connection with National Geographic's Genographic Project — discusses a genetic analysis of the San and asserts their blood contains the oldest genetic markers found on Earth, describing the Bushmen as a type of "genetic Adam". While the Bushmen's Y-chromosomal DNA haplogroup (type A) is one of the oldest, it is different from the Y-chromosome haplogroup that is the least common denominator for the rest of humanity (type BT). Therefore, the Bushmen likely represents the oldest existing population, but it is one divergent from the rest of humanity and not a sole common ancestor. Genetic markers present on the y chromosome are passed down through thousands of generations in a relatively pure form. The documentary continues to trace these markers throughout the world, demonstrating that all of humankind can be traced back to the African continent and that the San are the oldest, most genetically unadulterated, remnant of humankind's ancient ancestors. More recent analysis suggests that the San may have been merely isolated from other original ancestral groups and then rejoined at a later date, re-mixing the human gene pool.[25]

ah, i see.
it's not really importing to me, i just wondered about it, and i wondered about the hall contry as people, not just one, who is me, anyway.
i think getting my DNA test would be great, i have a friend, he discovered that his family is from turkey, his gran gran gran fother is from turkey, hehehehe
thnks for the info, about that we are all from africa, i mean, if we go to the first source, or origine, we'll find it in here, africa,

 

[Shadow1]

.

According to one genetic study while the vast majority of modern Tunisians identify themselves as Arabs, they are mainly the descendants of Berbers, the first peoples known to inhabit what is now Tunisia. Tunisians are also descended, to a lesser extent, from Semitic peoples (Phoenicians and Arabs) with a little less than 20% of the genetic material (Y-chromosome analysis) coming from the Middle East [6]. Other genetic studies found that "Tunisians did not show a significant level of differentiation with northern population"[7][8]. This suggests a fairly significant European input to Tunisian genetics compared to other neighbouring populations.{wiki}

ah, that's what i was searching for
thnx

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

That looks like an average day at any shopping mall in southern California.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

i'm very confused actually.

It looks like Tunisia is a "melting pot" like the United States. We have no race. Our ancestors came from everywhere and married each other. Our president is a perfect symbol of our people.

We are a community, we are a culture, but we are not a gene pool.

Some of my ancestors were English, some were Jewish, some were Bohemian (we say "Czech" now). What does that make me? An American.

 

[Walter L. Wagner]

That was going to be my comment, Fraggle!. They look like any of my students in California, Hawaii, or Utah.

 

[Shadow1]

.

It looks like Tunisia is a "melting pot" like the United States. We have no race. Our ancestors came from everywhere and married each other. Our president is a perfect symbol of our people.

We are a community, we are a culture, but we are not a gene pool.

Some of my ancestors were English, some were Jewish, some were Bohemian (we say "Czech" now). What does that make me? An American.

yeah, and also i'm tunisian, and then an arab. we still arabs here afterall.
but just a question, jewish, is not a race, it's like you say, a christian or a muslim or a whatever, jewish, are people who's relegion is jewish, and they can be from any race just like any other relegion

 

[Shadow1]

.

That was going to be my comment, Fraggle!. They look like any of my students in California, Hawaii, or Utah.

hehehehe, but i bet yours are hotter. as in general i mean, but we have hotties too, hehehehehe.
some photos
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=795952
lol

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Jewish is not a race, it's like you say, a Christian or a Muslim or a whatever, Jewish are people whose religion is Jewish, and they can be from any race just like any other religion.

That's not entirely true. Judaism is not an evangelical religion. Unlike Christians and Muslims, Jews make absolutely no effort to convert outsiders to their faith; in fact, they make it somewhat difficult to convert even if you want to. This explains why, even though they've been around the longest, there are so few of them. Their population grows primarily by reproduction, not conversion.

Because of this, most Jews have DNA that points back to the original population in Canaan. It's far from pure, of course. Conversions are occasionally performed, and in addition a population that's been persecuted for as long as they have has suffered rather a lot of rapes. Because of this, Jewish law accepts anyone as a Jew whose mother is Jewish. If a Jewish woman marries a gentile, her children are Jewish, according to these rules.

Still, there is a Jewish "community" that defines itself as an ethnic group, not just a religious congregation. This stands in contrast to the Christian and Muslim communities.