Which came first: Genesis or Josephus?

M

Medicine*Woman

Jesus: Mythstory--Not History!
Valued Senior Member
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M*W: I finally broke down and bought the Complete Works of Josephus with the intent to begin reading it slowly for some glimmer of comprehension. My first impression was startling. Book 1, Chapter 1 of the Antiquities begins with Josephus's explanation of the creation of the world. My first question for discussion is: Which came first: Genesis or Josephus? Did Josephus endeavor to explain the words of the Torah or did the Torah writers copy the words of Josephus?

I look forward to the knowledge those of you have on this subject.
 
draqon said:
Genesis
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M*W: Come on, people! How many of you have commented on Josephus in the past? I'm sure you all know a lot more than I do. In the Antiquities, Josephus explains in detail what Genesis really meant (that's as far as I've gotten). Why was it necessary for Josephus to go back and 'explain' the Book of Genesis (word for word)? At this time, only the oral tradition was around, so that is a clue that Josephus put the oral tradition in writing. This is where I'm going with this. Also, (if he actually existed), Paul only had the oral tradition to go by when writing the NT. Another curiosity--who came first, Paul or Josephus? Could it be possible that it was, in fact, Josephus who wrote the NT under the name of 'Paul?' This comes from recent scholarly hypotheses. Can we please discuss this, or is this too boring or over your heads? I hope not!
 
nova900 said:
From what I understand Josephus lived from around 37 B.C to sometime after 100 C.E., and the Torah was written (sources differ) ...some say as early as 1400 B.C up to 400 B.C. When exactly was the Torah written?

Here is a interesting site I found..

http://www.awitness.org/contrabib/torah/latedate.html
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M*W: Thank you for posting that link. It does address some of the questions I have. From what I've read about Josephus, there was no written Torah at the time of Josephus and/or Paul in Rome during the first century. (Those knowledgeable as to when the Oral Tradition was transcribed, please respond). As I understand Josephus's work, he penned it as an explanation of the oral tradition. My confusion comes from what the oral tradition was and how it got transcribed. It's long been established that Moses was credited with it's writing, but in actuality he did not write the Torah since it was not written during his time. There appears to be several authors of the Torah in several writing styles. (The History of God by Karen King).

Scholars agree that the Torah gradually evolved over time but much later than the oldest texts of the Old Testament. Its intent was to appear to come from a single source as if dictated to moses by god. Hebrew scribes copied the Torah, and no divine intervention took place in it's written creation.

Also, from what I am gathering from Josephus, the transcribing of the oral tradition didn't begin until about 70 CE after the temple was destroyed and Josephus retired back in Rome. That would explain why Paul didn't preach from a written copy of the Torah, but then again, Paul probably didn't exist anyway but was an anonymous author of the Epistles (possibly written by none other than Josephus)!

I've always been suspicious about Paul and the timeline of writing the Epistles which were written before the Gospels were written. Paul's timeline for the Epistles were from circa 50-68 CE. The Gospels were written from circa 70-100 CE. So, everything written about Jesus was written after the temple was destroyed. Further, Paul did most of his writing in Rome. This is a curiosity that I haven't been able to put to rest.

The timing, I believe, is everything.
 
Medicine*Woman said:
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There appears to be several authors of the Torah in several writing styles. (The History of God by Karen King).
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That is a bold assertion. Do you know specifically how the author arrived at this conclusion? Different writing styles, how did they differ? Is it a commonly held belif that there was one writer?...i assume it is.
 
I was under the impression that the Torah was finally written in response to the Christian Bible being canonized? Sometimes around 200 CE?
 
The Old Testament as we know it, is a result of the mass translation on around 350 BC of all the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek language commanded by King Ptolemy II (Son of Alexander of Macedon). Alexander conquered the Persian Empire at the time when the Hebrews were in captivity on Persia, after being in Babylon.
When Alexander conquered the Persian Empire, the Jews were liberated, but his son Ptolemy subjugated the Jews, brought thousands to Egypt, and ordered the translation of all their scriptures to Greek by the best 70 Greek scholars of the time.
 
Michael said:
I was under the impression that the Torah was finally written in response to the Christian Bible being canonized? Sometimes around 200 CE?
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M*W: Thanks, Michael, for your input. This is what I have learned as well. Anybody else know this?
 
John99 said:
That is a bold assertion. Do you know specifically how the author arrived at this conclusion? Different writing styles, how did they differ? Is it a commonly held belif that there was one writer?...i assume it is.
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M*W: "Bold assertion?" Not really.

Let me correct something, if I may. The author of A History of God is Karen Armstrong (not Karen King). In summarial review from wikipedia:

"Armstrong begins with the rise of the cult of Jahweh among the pagan deities of Canaan. She also examines the sources of the Pentateuch in the figures of the four supposed authors (or groups of authors) known as J, E, P and D." How Ms. Armstrong conducted her research can be found in her book.

Yes, there was a commonly held christian belief (as well as Jewish), that Moses wrote the entire Torah/Pentateuch alone. However, that has long been found to be a questionable belief.

Besides Karen Armstrong, there are other biblical scholars who have come to the same conclusion--that the Pentateuch was written by several authors.
 
Wisdom_Seeker said:
The Old Testament as we know it, is a result of the mass translation on around 350 BC of all the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek language commanded by King Ptolemy II (Son of Alexander of Macedon). Alexander conquered the Persian Empire at the time when the Hebrews were in captivity on Persia, after being in Babylon.
When Alexander conquered the Persian Empire, the Jews were liberated, but his son Ptolemy subjugated the Jews, brought thousands to Egypt, and ordered the translation of all their scriptures to Greek by the best 70 Greek scholars of the time.
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M*W: I haven't heard this. Could you please provide references?
 
Wisdom_Seeker said:
But the cannonization happened around 300 AC; what about the Greek origin of the Old Testament at around 350 B.C.?
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M*W: Do you mean around 300 CE? What do you mean by "AC?"

If the Greek origin was finally written down around 350 BCE, that is still some one thousand years after the time of the origination of the oral tradition (give or take a couple of centuries). So, in other words, you also conclude that Moses wasn't the author of the Pentateuch? Is this correct? That would mean the timeframe of the origination of the oral tradition would have occurred during Moses's time but then not written down until
the time of the HRE, of which the Ptolemy you speak of may have lived?

An interesting side note: Ptolemy was the Egyptian name of a member of the line of Cleopatra--right now, I don't know which Ptolemy it was--there were several. My point is that the Hebrew/Aramaic version of Ptolemy's name spelled phonetically is:

Bar Tholo Mu--or--Bartholomew which means "son of Ptolemy."
 
Well yes, it was all oral tradition, Moses wrote nothing. No enlightened man has leaved stuff written. Because words are meaningless unless you put them in context with a situation and a given receiver.
 
:rolleyes: also of note is it's a bit difficult to write about ones own death


So there, in the land of Moab, Moses, the servant of the LORD, died as the LORD had said; and he was buried in the ravine opposite Beth-peor in the land of Moab, but to this day no one knows the place of his burial. Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were undimmed and his vigor unabated.


From Wiki:

Original prohibition to write the Oral Torah

The laws transmitted to Moses were contained in the Torah written down on scrolls. The explanation however, was not allowed to be written down. Jews were obligated to speak the explanation and pass it on orally to students, children, and fellow adults. It was thus initially forbidden to write and publish the Oral Law: written material would be incomplete and subject to misinterpretation (and abuse).

After great debate, however, this restriction was lifted. Following the destruction of the Second Temple and the fall of Jerusalem, it became apparent that the Palestine community and its learning were threatened, and that publication was the only way to ensure that the law could be preserved; see Timeline of Jewish history.

Thus, around 200 CE, Rabbi Judah HaNasi took up the redaction of oral law; it was compiled into the first written work of rabbinic Judaism, the Mishnah.(There is also a tradition that the Midrashic-Mystical book "Pirke deRabi Eliezer" is the oldest Jewish book after the TaNaCh.) Over the next four centuries this body of law, legend and ethical teachings underwent debate and discussion, or Gemara, in both of the world's major Jewish communities (Israel and Babylon). The Gemara with the Mishnah came to be edited together into compilations known as the Talmud.
 
I want to add that by the time of the translation of the Torah to the Septuagint; the translation was not of oral tradition, but there was a written scripture already. That is why 70 men were needed for the translation, in order to translate it impecably. As a matter of fact, these men even realized there were "hidden" codes behind the texts, like the infamous "Bible Code", which had to be translated to Greek with the same results.
 
Wisdom_Seeker said:
I want to add that by the time of the translation of the Torah to the Septuagint; the translation was not of oral tradition, but there was a written scripture already. That is why 70 men were needed for the translation, in order to translate it impecably. As a matter of fact, these men even realized there were "hidden" codes behind the texts, like the infamous "Bible Code", which had to be translated to Greek with the same results.
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M*W: This text was apparently "lost," or perhaps "burned," or maybe never existed at all. But if it did exist, who wrote it and why? History has shown us that scribes had a status not much higher than slaves. Slaves, on the other hand, weren't necessarily owned by slave drivers but were simply "blue collar workers" of their day. The term "slave" implies being "owned," but in reality, "slave" means "manual laborer," so I doubt these common laborers were divinely inspired.
 
Medicine*Woman said:
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M*W: This text was apparently "lost," or perhaps "burned," or maybe never existed at all. But if it did exist, who wrote it and why? History has shown us that scribes had a status not much higher than slaves. Slaves, on the other hand, weren't necessarily owned by slave drivers but were simply "blue collar workers" of their day. The term "slave" implies being "owned," but in reality, "slave" means "manual laborer," so I doubt these common laborers were divinely inspired.
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The text was burned after the translation to Greek (In my perspective, obviously with the purpose of hidding something; like the potencial power of a single individual).

And you are right, people who wrote these in the first place we probably not divinely inspired; but they most likely wrote the scriptures as the common understanding of these things. They were written in a time when most people were familiar with these stories, and it probably were Moses disciples who wrote (or made them popular) them in the first place.
 
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