Where is Jesusland, Europeans?

I

invert_nexus

Ze do caixao
Valued Senior Member
My. Isn't this interesting.
America gets so much flack from Europeans who consider themselves so suave and sophisticated and Americans so grubby and puritanical.... And yet. Italy has removed the teaching of evolution from their educational system? A year ago?

What?!

Where's the outrage? Where's the cries of "Jesusland"? Where's the indignant responses to this shocking act of scientific suicide?

I find myself thinking of a quote from the bible.
"Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

Or in modern speak: "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

I do so love irony.
 
invert_nexus said:
I find myself thinking of a quote from the bible.
"Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

Or in modern speak: "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

I do so love irony.
Click to expand...

There you go.
 
no-one complains because in italy the religious zealots are an overwhelming majority. while in america there are enough at least semi-intelligent people to make a stand against religious inteference known.
 
invert_nexus said:
Where's the outrage? Where's the cries of "Jesusland"? Where's the indignant responses to this shocking act of scientific suicide?
Click to expand...

you expect this to be reported in us newspapers?
if so, outline the procedure beginning with a journalist putting pen to paper in europe to the subsequent dessemination of article to the us public
 
Europeans dont claim anything...just look into USA: i know that majority of people ar every nice (friends of mine told me that when in hollidays on America) but you must admit that your government (like 95% of the govs in the world) its pathetic. Sometimes i hear about laws that dont have any sense. Laws not only about education (like that bible stuff you spoke) but also about sexual behaviour for instance.

With all the respect, USA gov = $#&$# (this is a bad word). But dont be sad , Italy gov. its very awful too (if Berlusconi and its comrades still bei in the power).

More good news for you: In my country (Portugal) goc its f****** stupid too...

Anyway, coming back to the topic: that law about the teachings of evolution vs the bible shows that the gov of italy wants people to become "inteligents" like a stone...Jesus!!
 
invert_nexus said:
My. Isn't this interesting.
America gets so much flack from Europeans who consider themselves so suave and sophisticated and Americans so grubby and puritanical.... And yet. Italy has removed the teaching of evolution from their educational system? A year ago?

What?!

Where's the outrage? Where's the cries of "Jesusland"? Where's the indignant responses to this shocking act of scientific suicide?

I find myself thinking of a quote from the bible.
"Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

Or in modern speak: "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

I do so love irony.
Click to expand...

i have found europeans often to be less sophisticated than arrogant towards americans. part of it is that our president is a backwards ass born again christian coke snorting oil baron, and the other part of it is the entire southern section of the east coast and their sordid history. its a strong testament against american sophistication, but i challenege you to go to chicago, new york, boston, LA, or San francisco and tell me you cant find large amounts of people who are equally or more sophisticated than people in paris.
 
We all have our stereotypes an criticisms. Germans are cocksucking, shit rolling Nazis. Brits have bad teeth and talk funny. New Zealanders hump sheep. French are pussies. Canadians are slow. Mexicans smell bad and don't work. Italians are greasy.
 
invert_nexus said:
Where's the outrage? Where's the cries of "Jesusland"? Where's the indignant responses to this shocking act of scientific suicide?
Click to expand...

Last April, the Italian Minister for Education and Research, Letizia Moratti, caused a general outcry among scientists, educators and school administrators when she announced the abolishment of Darwinian theories from standard secondary school curricula. Established by legislative decree in February, the new teaching programmes for secondary schools made no mention of the history of human evolution, nor of the relationship between mankind and other species. A huge uproar was the result. The ministry was inundated by protest e-mails and faxes. And a petition was signed by more than 50,000 individuals, including Italy's top scientists such as Nobel Laureate Rita Levi-Montalcini, in La Repubblica, one of the country's most widely read newspapers. Together, these pressurized Ms Moratti to reconsider her position and ensure that the theory of evolution will be taught from the primary school level.

Notwithstanding Italy's strong Catholic tradition, there seems to have been no pressure from the Church to cause this ministerial manoeuvre. The influential Roman Catholic Church has no radical objections to Darwinism. The Pope himself has issued statements about evolution being compatible with the Catholic doctrine. Pressure might instead have come from far-right political groups, which are part of the ruling coalition government. Startled by the ministry's action, Ernesto Capanna, Professor of Comparative Anatomy in the Faculty of Natural Sciences at the University of Rome, La Sapienza, and member of the Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Italy's national academy of science, said "there is no rational answer to what happened....One reason could be some political circles' desire for self-lesion, another could be their complete ignorance. They talk about the Darwinian theory like they would talk of the Copernican theory, regretting the good old days of Linnaeus or Ptolemy. All this is pure folly."
 
Gustav,

You miss my point entirely.
I have no doubt that there were many who objected to the decision by the Italian government. Not only that, but the decision has been repealed and now they are working on ways to reintroduce evolution into the curriculum.

This isn't the issue.

My point is this (a very simple and local point.)

Every time a thread on evolution and/or creationism is made, people (not all Europeans surely) come out of the woodwork to deride the US as Jesusland. Kansas and Alabama being the notable states always involved in this particular debate. I've seen this times beyond count in my time here.

And never. Not once. Not a single time. Have I seen mention of Italy's decision to ban the teaching of evolution on a national level.
Never.

Why not?
Because it's so much funner (and pc) to deride the US for its failings than to look in your own back yard for faults, yes?
Yes.


Roman,

Hardly surprising about Italy. It's the Pope's natural habitat, after all.
Click to expand...

Are there lots of woods in Italy for the Pope to shit in?

We all have our stereotypes an criticisms. Germans are cocksucking, shit rolling Nazis. Brits have bad teeth and talk funny. New Zealanders hump sheep. French are pussies. Canadians are slow. Mexicans smell bad and don't work. Italians are greasy.
Click to expand...

True. True.
This is unavoidable as it is an integral part of human cognition. We require stereotypes in order to operate efficiently in many areas (social, decision-making, the list goes on.)
However, it's pathetic when the stereotypes are so strong that the hypocrisy that they promote becomes invisible.

And the thing is that we Americans are so self-effacing and easy-going that we don't really mind that Europe poo-poos us the way they do. Hell, we expect it.

We're so self-effacing and self-centered that we don't even look far afield for targets for the evolution debate. We look to ourselves. Kansas. Alabama. We don't look to Italy. And Europe doesn't advertise its black sheep.

So. Italy goes unnoticed while Kansas is spit on by the world.


Water,

There you go.
Click to expand...

Where ever you go. There you are.


Vslayer,

Wow. That's the most blatantly non-anti-American thing I think I've ever seen you write outside of your love of the Simpsons...


Kazbadan,

Europeans dont claim anything...just look into USA: i know that majority of people ar every nice (friends of mine told me that when in hollidays on America) but you must admit that your government (like 95% of the govs in the world) its pathetic. Sometimes i hear about laws that dont have any sense. Laws not only about education (like that bible stuff you spoke) but also about sexual behaviour for instance.
Click to expand...

Absolutely.
The US government as well as the various state governments (which are really at fault here when it comes to this particular issues in the US) have their flaws. Many many flaws. This is inevitable.

What I'm on about is the hypocrisy of ignoring flaws close to home while deriding other nations.

Now. I realize that Italy's government is not synonymous with any other European government so the quote about the beam in your own eye doesn't quite fly. However, it's a long standing practice for Europeans to gang up together when it comes to certain issues. Specifically issues of cultural superiority over other areas. "The continent" is culturally superior to the whole world in their eyes. And thus in this way, Europeans tend to melt together.

Case in point.
For all the derision I've seen poured onto the US in these forums for certain states having creationist-biased educational systems, I've NEVER heard of Italy's federal decision on the same front.

With all the respect, USA gov = $#&$# (this is a bad word).
Click to expand...

I wouldn't go that far. It's got its problems. But it's also got its benefits.
Pros and cons.

Now. If you want to talk about the present adminstration... well then. That's another story. I'd go to farther lengths to agree with you. However, even in this I would say that it has its benefits. One being that if Bush was really a fascist, he could have easily taken the country after 9/11. But he didn't.
You gotta give him that.


Charles Cure,

part of it is that our president is a backwards ass born again christian coke snorting oil baron,
Click to expand...

Europe had problems with the US long before Bush came to power. He has only exacerbated a pre-existing issue.

and the other part of it is the entire southern section of the east coast and their sordid history. its a strong testament against american sophistication,
Click to expand...

What's funny is that it's the southern United States that has the most cultural ties to Europe.
The Southern Gentry were a direct analogue to Europe's nobility.

And New Orleans was always considered the most European of all American cities...

but i challenege you to go to chicago, new york, boston, LA, or San francisco and tell me you cant find large amounts of people who are equally or more sophisticated than people in paris.
Click to expand...

I bet if any of the braver Europeans on the board read this, they'd disagree with you.

Do you know that many Europeans would never eat a hamburger just because it's so 'American'?
"Ick. A hamburger?! Why. I'd never!!! Foul beast! Pass me that goose liver."
 
Italy goes unnoticed while Kansas is spit on by the world.
Click to expand...
Italy does have a little more class. Hell, even Americans spit upon Kansas! You know who Europeans make fun of? Pakis, Turks, Poles, commies from the eastern block. I think they're just operating on a different dynamic than we are.

Italy doesn't pretend to be much, not since the 16th century anway. When was the last time the Italians did anything important? There was pizza and Galileo. That's about it. Italy has no no huge contradiction between a country that purports to be the leader of science while the president rode to power on a bunch of Chrisitan Crazies. They are a nation of Catholics, after all. And they're not the leader of the free world.

That aside, what we hear from Europe is usually about us. We don't really listen to what other stuff they say. I do this all the time in my personal life, too. When somenone's talking about someone I don't know or don't care about, I don't listen. When it's about me, I'm all ears!
 
Italy has no no huge contradiction between a country that purports to be the leader of science while the president rode to power on a bunch of Chrisitan Crazies.
Click to expand...

You've got a good point here.
However, the thing to consider is that the issue of evolution in schools in the US is a states issue. Not a federal one.

However, Bush has done his share of destroying science in the US. This can't be denied. We can only hope that eventually a new adminstration will rebuild what he has destroyed...

That aside, what we hear from Europe is usually about us. We don't really listen to what other stuff they say.
Click to expand...

And this is a good point as well. One which I had been considering myself, as a matter of fact.

But, this would connect to the issue of journalism (I read about this in Science, by the way). My issue is local. This forum. I'd have noticed somebody mentioning Italy's anti-evolutionary stance in any of the threads where the US was getting bashed for it. There might very well be threads here about this issue that I haven't seen. Sure. But I'd think that Italy would be brought up in each thread in which Kansas was mentioned. But it never has to my eyes.

Italy does have a little more class.
Click to expand...

More class and less deodorant?
Muaha!

Is Eurotrash classy?

Hell, even Americans spit upon Kansas!
Click to expand...

Ever been there? (It really is a hole. But there are pockets of resistance there. I assure you. Small bands of freedom fighters...)

Ever consider that every nation has areas that are similar to Kansas? Do you think that rural Italy is so much classier than Kansas? Why? Because of the accents? Because they drink wine? Because they take a bath twice a month?

Now. I can understand Italy being a christian hotbed because of Catholicism. But, the point remains. They're never mentioned.
The US doesn't hide its black sheep.
 
I dont think that europeans see themselves as being more "soft" and advanced (in culture point of view). Maybe movie makers, and muscians, but not normal people. At least i speak about my country, that it s like a 3rd world country, with the majority of people having little culture (not blaming on them, just stating something).

Portugal its a place where people its being connected to nature in the villages, where wine is our blood and soccer and fado (popular portuguese music...the real fado its amazing and very beautiful) are the things that make older people happy (young people have a more american style of life).

For these reasons, i dont think that portuguese people will see americans as being more inteligent. In fact, older people looks to USA as a very advanced country. More inteligent people tends to look to USA with divergent opinions. Some of them love it (Macdonalds, computers, music, etc) but others dont like it due to the "preventive attack" on Irak and some other political issues.

In my opinion, about USA:
1) Dont like the gov. sorry dudes.
2) People are nice

thats all folks :)
 
TTCCTGTAACGGTTCC?

Or.

UUCCUGUAACGGUUCC?

I could always dig up the codon chart and spit out a few amino acids, but you have an extra nucleic acid and thus I suspect that the message isn't in the codons.

It's been awhile since I've read up on genetics. Is there a start or a stop code in there maybe?

(Actually, what first came to mind was something along the lines of Roman's point about people only being interested in things that are close to home. And would carry on your point about why the American media hasn't pushed this story to the public.)
 
Ah.
Because, it's an analog to all the threads on evolution not being taught in schools. You know. All the ones that never mention Italy.
 
Invert,
However, the thing to consider is that the issue of evolution in schools in the US is a states issue. Not a federal one.
Click to expand...

I hardly bother to consider state issues anymore. The feds own just about everything these days. I also don't expect a bunch of Europeans to be all too familiar with my gov't system. Hell, I couldn't tell you much about the difference between the Congress and Senate (there are more congressman than senators, right?), much less about the English parliament.

I'd have noticed somebody mentioning Italy's anti-evolutionary stance in any of the threads where the US was getting bashed for it. There might very well be threads here about this issue that I haven't seen. Sure. But I'd think that Italy would be brought up in each thread in which Kansas was mentioned. But it never has to my eyes.
Click to expand...

I considered this, too. But really, most discussion here is entirely US-centric. Most stuff involving other countries is brought back to a "George Bush durr!", a leftwing agenda or rightwing conspiracy.

Ever been there? (It really is a hole. But there are pockets of resistance there. I assure you. Small bands of freedom fighters...)
Click to expand...

Can't say I've been to Kansas. No desire to, either. Flat, no ocean, no wilds, no animals, no whitewater, no culture. I get a feeling of corn, strip malls and hick accents. And that's a bad feeling.

Ever consider that every nation has areas that are similar to Kansas? Do you think that rural Italy is so much classier than Kansas? Why? Because of the accents? Because they drink wine? Because they take a bath twice a month?
Click to expand...

Oh no, definitely I considered this. What's more Romantic though, rural America or rural Italy? Sleeping with your freckeld cousin or sleeping with a totally hot Italian woman? BBQ, apple pie and beer, or wine, pasta and all that Italian shit.

Italians creep me out, though. The guys wear those ridiculously seedy silk shirts that are open and exposing lots of chest hair/gold chains and always fit tightly about their paunch. They have beefy forearms ending in fat fingers encrusted with gold rings. Definitely sketchy.

Or what about crowded Italian streets where everyone shuffles about at midday, not working, just shirking. It's a Mediterranean thing, and they brought it to the New World. Mexico's fairly similar in attitude.

Invert, I can't even remember what I'm going on about.

Now. I can understand Italy being a christian hotbed because of Catholicism. But, the point remains. They're never mentioned.
The US doesn't hide its black sheep.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's true. But then, American politics are world politics.

Besides that, America is so big, it gets to hold all sorts of dissenting opinion. Europe is neatly divided into small countries, some with funny names. Where am I going with this.

Right. Europe gets together to go against the US. Internal disputes about stuff are mostly internal affairs, within respective countries. Firstly, we hear about the evolution stuff cause it's within our country. Everyone else hears about it cause we make a lot of noise. And then we hear about what they think.

Everyone making noise about stuff in other countries is confined to that country and that region. I'm sure there was a big stink about it, it just never made it across the pond. American media viewers just don't care enough.

If you listen to NPR, you get a greater idea of what's going on in other places. It's a little more than the "he said she said" bullshit in the typical news. Well, maybe "he said she said" on an international, non-US focused level.

Europe is only getting together to bash the US. It's usually been a bunch of disparate states about to cut each other. 'Europe' in this new, cultural sense, exists to counter the US. European problems are considered, I'm thinking, mostly the individual country's issue. Thus no coverage. Thus no one cares
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top