When is racism okay?

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Sam: Lucky them?

I don't think its simply a matter of 'luck'

Sam: re but having sympathy for them doesn't mean that I think its an occasion for celebrating white pride. More like an argument in favour of suppressing such tendencies.

Why can't everyone celebrate? Why can't we all celebrate what is best in us and our cultures? I mean unless you believe that all whites should hang their heads in shame. I mean what happened to the notion of treating all people as we would like to be treated ourselves? White, jewish, western, eastern, black what have you. We come with our race and religion, beliefs, backgrounds and experience this is true but at the end of the day you can only judge people on an individual basis and when we get to THAT place then we can say that race, religion, etc is no longer a factor in how we size up someone.

Sam: Meanwhile I am surprised at Lucy, she's changed a lot in her outlook. Or maybe, I'm just getting to know her views better.

Nope. Its the same outlook Sam what I detest is weighing events against people no matter which people the events are being weighed against.

 

[S.A.M.]

Celebrate what you like, but when your celebration is about being better than other people, don't be surprised if no one else joins in.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Celebrate what you like, but when your celebration is about being better than other people, don't be surprised if no one else joins in.

Who says it means being better than anyone else? Since when is being proud of being black translate into being better or thinking oneself better than anyone else?

You are proud of being muslim aren't you? Does it mean you think you are better than everyone else? Jews, christians, buddhists or perhaps the atheists?

 

[S.A.M.]

I have yet to see a black pride celebration that was about blacks being better than anyone else. Or a white pride celebration that wasn't. In fact, I am still waiting for any example of a white pride celebration that has not been about being better than others./

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

No one spoke of marches or parades Sam that was your take on this. But if you must. Have you ever been to an Irish Day Parade? Try it sometime its great everyone drinks beer, sports a shamrock and green tie and celebrates together. Might do you some good.

By the way blacks don't celebrate black pride with parades and such. What they do is feel proud, sometimes were a t-shirt. Stuff like that. There is a black history month but that doesn't really count as its really just a celebration of blacks of importance throughout history. The whole idea behind MZ's thread was to ask why is it that if one says they are proud of their race and they are white its looked on as being racist and its not racist. Its small minded to think that whites don't have the right to be proud like everyone else of who they are.

 

[S.A.M.]

So give me an example of what you believe whites are not permitted to do as a celebration of the white race

Have you ever been to an Irish Day Parade?

yeah in Chicago, is that an example of celebrating the white race which is being inhibited by non-white racists?

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Read the edit on my previous post.

To answer the question you have placed as to an example of whites not being permitted to celebrate their race, one would be MZ's thread and the point he was making in that thread. He cannot say 'yeah I'm proud to be white' without it being perceived as racist.

 

[S.A.M.]

And I said he suffers from association. The association of people proud to be white is white supremacsim and racism against nonwhites

 

[Tiassa]

Partial response

But having to apologize for being born white person is ok?

Nope. The big difference I see is between theory and practice. In theory it is easy enough to say that racism is wrong and has no place in this community. In practice, as we see, defining racism is more complicated.

No. I don't think the identity of a person who engages in prejudice, racism or oppression matters one bit NOR the reasons. Oppression is oppression full stop or you will end up being the oppressor without realizing you have shifted roles. This is what happened with the Hutu's who were oppressed by the Tutsi's and also with the Khmer Rouge. And if you look at Janet Elliot's brown eye blue eye experiment you can see that the oppressor and oppressed changes depending on whom you believe you rightfully focus your prejudice towards.

If the reasons why one is oppressed are irrelevant, how can you heal the divisions brought on by that oppression? A loose analogy would be "crime". When my car was stolen--either time, take your pick--sure, I was annoyed, but the car can be replaced. When one of my best friends in the world was raped by her father, well, I'm not sure what insurance policy can buy back what is lost. Nor would I know where to tell her to shop for it.

Is it a dramatic, even exaggerated comparison? Sure. I think so. But there's a reason for that. If we simply stop our analysis at the general--whether we say "oppression" or "crime"--what are the details we're missing in seeking justice? That is, how can we prescribe justice if we don't know what the problem is?

Different forms of oppression do not fundamentally alter the proposition that oppression is wrong. But ignoring the differences in form and effect leads to absurdity.

They must?

Who must what?

You mean for generations after an event they must account for offenses of a system and world paradigm their forefathers existed within and so too were victims of? Hmmm.

While I, too, recognize victimhood in those who are educated with poison ideas, I also recognize the difference between those who profit from those ideas, and those who suffer by them.

Yes, let us feel sorry for the slave holders. And let us pretend that the Civil War was the end of it. After all, Martin Luther King, Jr., Rosa Parks, and all those other scandalous troublemakers were just complaining about nothing, right? You know, having a lark?

I've asked you a few questions about when things were the same for white people as they were for blacks:

Certainly there are plenty who would condemn white culture, and even excessively, but when have whites ever endured the kind of oppression that others have? When were the laws oriented specifically against whites? When were school textbooks written to lie about history in order to denigrate whites and advance the propriety of dark skin?

• • •​

When were white people ever constitutionally held to be only three-fifths human? When did anyone ever twist Darwin to suggest that the position of a white person's navel indicated their inherent biological inferiority? When did nonwhite people ever justify themselves by saying it was un-Christian to teach a white man to read because it would only make him uncomfortable with being a slave? When did being one-eight, or even one drop white make you white, and thus subject to institutional and social discrimination?​

I would appreciate your answers to those questions. It's not that I'm not unmoved by your appeal to sympathize with the poor slave owners, Jim Crow enforcers, and corrupt cops, but I really would appreciate some consideration of what I regard as relevant and important.

I'll pick up the rest later; I need to get on the road, soon. Been trying to write this on a strange laptop with a strange operating system while making sure my cousin's kid doesn't blow up his mom's house. The relief crew has arrived, and his girlfriend is en route, so I need to get the hell out of their way. Especially as it's her computer.

 

[hypewaders]

It's the new white man's burden: We haven't suffered enough. Fuck it, let's get on with it then.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

And I said he suffers from association. The association of people proud to be white is white supremacsim and racism against nonwhites

For the cultural achievements made by his people. The same reason why an african american would be proud. All of these things are based on culture at the end of the day, what you have done is equate a white person who is proud of being white with white pride the hate group.

You are proud of being muslim no? Does it mean that you think you are better than jews and christians and atheists and buddhists? I mean is that a natural jump in your mind. Also can others assume that because you are proud of your muslim traditions that you automatically dislike jews? There are a lot of people out there Sam who would say that muslims have a natural dislike for Jews the same way some seem to think that whites have a natural dislike for anything non-white.

 

[S.A.M.]

Its like saying "can I be proud to be a nazi without being associated with Nazis?"

The association matters like it or not. Especially to those with a history under racism

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Tiassa: Nope. The big difference I see is between theory and practice. In theory it is easy enough to say that racism is wrong and has no place in this community. In practice, as we see, defining racism is more complicated.

I can see how this would be so I can agree with you on that.

Tiassa: If the reasons why one is oppressed are irrelevant, how can you heal the divisions brought on by that oppression? If we simply stop our analysis at the general--whether we say "oppression" or "crime"--what are the details we're missing in seeking justice? That is, how can we prescribe justice if we don't know what the problem is?

The reasons why are irrelevant because it doesn't appease the wrong that was done. For example we know that well this group was disliked by that group therefore it lead to this atrocity or this oppression doesn't appease those who were oppressed nor does it correct the error. You cannot seek justice for a crime that was committed several generations ago, you can try and fix the present inequalities and injustices but you cannot appease someone for say enslaving their great-great-grandparents. Analysis doesn't have to stop no, especially historical analysis which I believe is there to shed light on present situations. The problem with assigning blame is that we forget that each of us and every group has the capacity to be the oppressor. This is why we are always surprised when there is another genocide, its like we thought it was the nazis, then the africans do it, then we turn and its the Khmers doing it to their own, then we turn and its the muslims in eastern europe etc. We forget that under a 'system' that we all have the capacity to be the perpetrator. This is why its important not to cast a certain group as the de facto abuser of all mankind as its simply not true, what you fight is the system that creates the circumstances and looking at history is one way of paying attention to the sign that a system of discrimination or hatred in underway.

Tiassa: Who must what?

Oh. Well you said this at one point:

"But whites generally still harvest the fruits of past racist offenses. This must be accounted for."

I reminds me a lot of KR communist rhetoric that lead to placing an injustice over an injustice. Blame the ones who harvest the fruits of the previous bad regime and then hang them out to dry. You know like most of the marxist regimes that went on a 'cultural revolution' and then targeted anyone who had 'harvested the fruits'.

Tiassa: I also recognize the difference between those who profit from those ideas, and those who suffer by them.

All thinking people do. I didn't say that we should feel sorry for the slave owner I said we have to see what system the slave owner was operating within. Just as we have to see the system that turned a math high school teacher into the person assigned to run S-21. More importantly the slave owner's children grow up in a certain culture, the same way as whites did in South Africa under apartheid that further indoctrinates, as all culture and social systems indoctrinates. In this sense Tutu was right that both blacks and whites were dehumanized under the apartheid system.

Tiassa: Certainly there are plenty who would condemn white culture, and even excessively, but when have whites ever endured the kind of oppression that others have?

I have already gone through that with Sam. You can just read the posts on the Irish under the English. You do realize that for a long time there have been blacks in the U.S who come from a long line of educated families, families with money who are far better off than some white kid living in rural virginia right? I mean we must stop looking at black people as if they are these perpetual victims its not only condescending its untrue.

Tiassa: When were white people ever constitutionally held to be only three-fifths human? When did anyone ever twist Darwin to suggest that the position of a white person's navel indicated their inherent biological inferiority? When did nonwhite people ever justify themselves by saying it was un-Christian to teach a white man to read because it would only make him uncomfortable with being a slave? When did being one-eight, or even one drop white make you white, and thus subject to institutional and social discrimination?

Again I refer you to the posts I placed for Sam concerning the Irish. But again these are not reasons to suggest that white people today should be treated any differently than any other group when it comes to the courtesy's we naturally would show any other group. We are at the end of the day speaking of our generation not the ones who came before us and its time to start looking at the issues that affect us now because blacks and whites are not under the old system but a new one with its own paradigm.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Its like saying "can I be proud to be a nazi without being associated with Nazis?"

The association matters like it or not. Especially to those with a history under racism

So white people are de facto nazis?

White=nazi? :bugeye:

You can be proud to be a WASP who's forefathers helped create a town or even the nation. That makes them nazi's?

If the association matters then I will remind you of what muslims are associated with right now in history. And I am wondering if you think its warranted. I know a man who is an accounting consultant (actually he's and auditor) and travels around the world a lot working for the EU and other organizations. He has lived all over the world. One day we were sitting having a few drinks and he told me that when he is flying he sometimes wished they wouldn't allow muslims on board. He spoke of the menacing burka and his mistrust of muslims. Were his associations warranted? I mean like it or not this is what muslims are associated with.

How has racism affected you historically Sam? Don't try and pretend to speak for african americans because you cannot and frankly know diddly squat about them. I could tell that right away by the way you characterized the group and its concerns in MZ's thread.

 

[S.A.M.]

I will remind you of what muslims are associated with right now in history. And I am wondering if you think its warranted

It makes no difference if it is or isn't. A "typical" Muslim promoting Islamic pride will be jeered at regardless. Just look at the sciforums admin for an education in institutionalised bigotry.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

It makes no difference if it is or isn't. A "typical" Muslim promoting Islamic pride will be jeered at regardless. Just look at the sciforums admin for an education in institutionalised bigotry.

Institutionalized bigotry? I should remind you that there are many members here who were disgusted at the way some muslim members were treated and said so and fought over it etc. Surely you don't think Bells or Tiassa would take part in 'institutionalized racism'. I would also remind you that the members who were completely rude and disparaging towards muslims were a handful and in no way mirrors the attitude of the majority of members on this board.

But please clear this up for me you said:

"Its like saying "can I be proud to be a nazi without being associated with Nazis?"

And I asked this:

So white people are de facto nazis?

White=nazi?

You can be proud to be a WASP who's forefathers helped create a town or even the nation. That makes them nazi's?

How has racism affected you historically Sam?

 

[S.A.M.]

So white people are de facto nazis?

White=nazi?

white pride = neonazism.

How has racism affected you historically Sam?

Its been our history under white Brahmins and under colonial Britishers. And yes, it does affect millions of people and how they see themselves.

See the Indian association to date of white skin = good, black skin = bad.

Our best selling cosmetic is Fair and Lovely.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

white pride = neonazism.

White Pride is a hate group. White people who are proud are just that white people who have pride in their heritage.

Like I said before You can be proud to be a WASP who's forefathers helped create a town or even the nation. That makes them nazi's?

 

[S.A.M.]

I don't know anyone who assiciates WASPs with white pride

Do you?

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

I don't know anyone who assiciates WASPs with white pride

Do you?

White Anglo Saxon Protestants. 'White Pride' is a name of an association and should not be confused with people who take pride in their heritage. What don't you understand about that?