When is racism okay?

The sins of the father are necessarily visited on the son. The Civil War was a hundred forty-five years ago, and we're still feeling the aftershocks. This is a matter of practical reality, not subjective will.
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The thing about that, Tiassa, is that you're all for re-education on humanitarian grounds on some issues, and quite prepared to let others slide. I mean, that is your solution to racial issues, isn't it? Education? Understanding?
Yet the sins of the father being visited upon the sons is something you merely accept as being "practical reality".
It is natural for humans to have suspicion and distrust for those whom they perceive to be different from themselves. That also is a "practical reality", but not one you're about to dismiss so easily.

Seems to me there's something a little skewed about the way you approach this. What you're saying is that the onus is on us to understand them, but we should also be understanding of them refusing to understand us.
That isn't going to work. Pointing out guilt in an argument might be seen as something useful, but continued "punishment" long after the crime is something which will only cause further division.
Particularly when many whites these days aren't even guilty of any crime to begin with.

I will not be held responsible for what those who came before me have done. Perhaps you should bend some effort into educating those who hold sullen resentment in their hearts about that, at the same time you attempt to educate the racist about racism.
Education is the key, after all. Right? Well, so is balance.
 
Bashing whites is racism and should never be done.

Bashing atheism is not racist though. i think all ideologies and religions are being attacked. It would be nice if people would stop with gratuitous insults against religions and other faith systems.:)
 
Cellar_Door said:
But are black people and Jews really victims any more?....Likewise, no-one now living suffered its effects.
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aborigines are still victims. they are suffering the effects.

There comes a point when we need to stop apologising for what we haven't done. The British may have indulged in some thoroughly unpleasant practices back in the days of The Empire, but no-one now living ever had a hand in Imperialism or the Slave Trade.
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walking into a country which was invaded, and saying 'hey i didn't kill you guys, i'm just gonna live on your land'.
 
codanblad said:
aborigines are still victims. they are suffering the effects.



walking into a country which was invaded, and saying 'hey i didn't kill you guys, i'm just gonna live on your land'.
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Any you would suggest what in terms of white australians? I mean unless you live in Europe it may be just for you to pack your bags and go back to where your ancestors came from.

Racism and discrimination also occurs in places where the host society hasn't stolen the land from anyone so I fail to see your point.
 
I think to get in touch with my white pride I will go to the White food restaurant and order a mayonnaise sandwich. Then I will go to the theater and watch a white movie.
 
Lucysnow said:
Any you would suggest what in terms of white australians? I mean unless you live in Europe it may be just for you to pack your bags and go back to where your ancestors came from.

Racism and discrimination also occurs in places where the host society hasn't stolen the land from anyone so I fail to see your point.
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my problem isn't with racism and discrimination, its a matter of fairness. i'm not suggesting making everyone leave, we stole something, lets give it back. i doubt aborigines would want everyone to leave, although it could be done anyway.

i'd be happy if the government spent the amount of money needed to make aboriginal quality of life equivalent to the rest of australians, because we have the money and we owe it to them after screwing them up in the first place.

the point i was trying to make in the first place is that we do have something to apologise for, we're just as much invaders as the first fleet, except we don't need to carry guns cos all the killing's been done. buying stolen goods is putting bread on the robber's table, which is what australians are doing by accepting the government's claim that it owns the place.
 
But you did apologize:

"The Australian government has made a formal apology for the past wrongs caused by successive governments on the indigenous Aboriginal population."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7241965.stm

The australian government does make efforts to raise the standard and quality of life for aboriginals. Indigenous populations also have to learn how to find their feet and many do. How often do you think you should apologize for your forefather's? How many generations? Its interesting. Really if a man does bad things in his life to many others we don't suggest that his children continue to apologize on his behalf forever and a day. The fact is that the apology is irrelevant since the past cannot be undone.
 
I think the aborigines should be offered a referendum if they want to have their own nation state.

Maybe they will say no, but it should be offered.
 
No, it isn't. And clearly there are very few here who have seen the result of offering them any autonomy at all.
 
codanblad said:
my problem isn't with racism and discrimination, its a matter of fairness. i'm not suggesting making everyone leave, we stole something, lets give it back.
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Fine. I'd like a little plot of land in Somerset, England, please.

Damn those Romans, Norse, Angles, Jutes, Saxons and whoever else anyway. Bastards.

Anyway, when you can arrange that, I'd really appreciate it if you'd let me know.

codanblad said:
aborigines are still victims. they are suffering the effects.
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And they'll carry on "suffering the effects" until it is no longer advantageous for them to do so.
 
Meursalt said:
No, it isn't. And clearly there are very few here who have seen the result of offering them any autonomy at all.
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Seems to me its still a lot better than wholesale genocide, which is the result of autonomy in those who visited them. It takes a helluva lot longer to grow out of being occupied than it does to get used to it.

Meursalt said:
And they'll carry on "suffering the effects" until it is no longer advantageous for them to do so.
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Just remember that when your turn comes around.
 
codanblad said:
aborigines are still victims. they are suffering the effects.
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What do you expect the Australians to do - up and leave? Modern Aussies didn't invade anyone. They have been living there for generations and can't help the situation they were born into. It's just this 'sins of the father' rubbish that so many people in this thread have been spouting. After all, what rights are Aborigines denied?

walking into a country which was invaded, and saying 'hey i didn't kill you guys, i'm just gonna live on your land'.
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I don't understand this, can you elaborate please?
 
Think immigrants moving into your home and tossing you out. Do you have a right to feel outraged? For how long?

When is it no longer okay for you to feel outraged at having your language, culture and home taken from you?
 
S.A.M. said:
Think immigrants moving into your home and tossing you out. Do you have a right to feel outraged? For how long?

When is it no longer okay for you to feel outraged at having your language, culture and home taken from you?
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You analogy is flawed, and it grossly oversimplifies matters. If lots of people invaded my home and tried to marginalise me, of course I would want to fight back and see them kicked out. Thing is, it's an entirely different situation after many years and generations have passed.
After all, living memory of the invasion died long ago and the descendants of both the invaders and the invaded get along with eachother and have equal standing. What happened in the past was bad, but there's nothing that can change that now. Should the 'immigrants' in your analogy be held responsible for the actions of their great-great-grandfathers? They were born in that house and so were their parents, grandparents and great-grandparents.

Anyway, it's not always about invading other countries. What about Slavery and Genocide? Most of the time only a handful of people actually have any power over what's going on.
 
I think it depends on how people view their history, e.g. the Indians did manage to get rid of the British, but adopted many of their attitudes to colour, race and exploitation [among other better things like the Westminster system and an English syllabus]. Occupation brings about a change in the psyche of a community and they internalise the oppression so that it does not matter if a hundred years have passed, their own damage is passed on [like a kind of parental abuse]. The damage can become worse over time [like the Rwandan massacre which resulted from a divide and rule policy centuries ago] or better [no idea what example to give here, has anyone overcome damage from occupation which is not reflected in their society]

This is something which most white people do not comprehend because they have never actually been oppressed and dehumanised for their colour. Even what they call reverse discrimination, which is so intolerable to many of them is laughably incomparable and yet, this is something which they protest against, in a society where they hold the power and the decision making processes in their hands.

Stripped of all power, at the mercy of other people for living, talking, thinking, eating, sleeping, working, even breathing, is something they have never faced, not even as a memory passed on to a grandchild.

So what is the answer? To suppress all history of oppression and have an attitude of moving on? I doubt that will heal any wounds. What do you think will work?
 
Who cares about the blame? People don't want to be held responsible for what their great great grandparents did and they should not be held responsible. But In my opinion the nation should be held responsible to do whatever the nation can do to heal the descendants of the victims from nations the past.

The great great...great grand parents and their original victims are long since but the nations lived on and the victimization lives on in the dysfunction of some of the families of the descendants of the victims. The nations owe a repair of these broken families.


I am not claiming that new racism and it's damage does not also exist but if the nation state did not facilitate the new racism I would not hold the nation state and the future citizens responsible for healing the after affects of new damage.
 
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