*When* do you have to have faith?

[Changeling]

I've been involved in a discussion with some Christians on another forum, and they are telling me that their churches, the Bible, and Christianity in general does not make any specific demands that a person believe in Jesus as personal savior while alive. They say that the standard Christian belief is that everyone gets one more chance to stand before God and choose to have faith at that time, immediately after death.

Now, this is pretty different from what I've heard most of my life. Most Christians have emphasized to me that it is very important to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior immediately, ASAP, because you never know when you are going to die and at that point it will be too late.

The "one last chance at death" thing is pretty new to me. Has anyone heard of this before? Can anyone say, does Christianity teach that you must accept Jesus now, or that you can do it later after death? I'd really like to hear some other viewpoints on this, thanks.

 

[Warrior61]

The Bible does not say you can have faith after you die. I'd ask for the scripture the used. Not only does Scripture not say that, but also when you consider the Christian concept of faith and salvation their reasoning does not follow.

His son,

Warrior61 <><

 

[Changeling]

I'd ask for the scripture the used.

Well, I did. They could not point to a particular passage of scripture specifically indicating this. However they said that all the passages in the Bible that say you have to have faith in Jesus are vague on when, leaving it open to interpretation.

Does this seem plausible?

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Does this seem plausible?

No. The essence of Christianity is that you have to have faith in Christ, and that will be your salvation. Salvation occurs at the moment of death, not afterwards.

If you die, expecting there not to be an afterlife, and you find yourself still alive after all, of course you're gonna go, "Oh shit, I was wrong. Look everybody, I've changed my mind and I really love Jesus. Can I go to Heaven now?" And of course the answer is a very bassy, thundering "NO! Mwa ha ha ha ha!" (I made that last bit up, I'm sure it isn't in the Bible.)

 

[Warrior61]

Well, I did. They could not point to a particular passage of scripture specifically indicating this. However they said that all the passages in the Bible that say you have to have faith in Jesus are vague on when, leaving it open to interpretation.

Does this seem plausible?

If a Christian ever says "the Bible/Scripture says so" then ask for them to show you. If there isn't a response, or even a reference then it is not plausible.

 

[Warrior61]

Salvation occurs at the moment of death, not afterwards.

That is false. The benefits in the afterlife of Salvation occur at the moment of death. We have already been rescued from our sin and the grave, death is just a passing.

 

[Lori_7]

something (things) happened to me to solidify my knowledge and understanding of christ as our saviour. it makes me mad, having experienced this, to know that so many people who "represent" christ, want to make it about rules or some rote, forced, "worship me or burn in hell" mentality. that doesn't mean anything. that's coercion. god doesn't want coercion. he wants understanding. to develop this understanding is the meaning of life.

i have found that god will show you himself and explain himself to you if you want him to do it. he apparently knows if and when you are sincere in your search for his knowledge.

THAT is what develops faith. faith is based upon the knowledge of god, not a lack of it.

 

[Sarkus]

Quick question - what do you mean by "faith"?
Are you meaning merely a "belief in God" - i.e. "I belong to this Faith"
Or some other meaning.

To me "faith" is something you use when you need to make a decision without all the necessary input to justify your decision.
Most of the time it's just another word for probability (based on evidence), but occasionally, as I feel with "religious faith", it refers to when there is no evidence to support even a probability-assessment.
I appreciate that some feel there is evidence for a God... but personally I don't, hence why I can make the distinction between "probability" and "religious faith" etc.

So just curious as to what you refer to by "faith"?

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

That is false. The benefits in the afterlife of Salvation occur at the moment of death. We have already been rescued from our sin and the grave, death is just a passing.

Well fine. I was thinking of salvation as the "actual" sending of a person's soul to Heaven instead of Hell. But regardless of how we define it, it does not take place after death. So the answer to the question in the OP is, if you believe in Abrahamic religion, you have to have faith before you die. Changing your mind after dying just doesn't do you any good.

 

[azriel]

that's one of the more intelligent things that I've read on this site, Lori. Seek and you will find. The rest that can't comprehend simple text, can't make an intelligent decision on what they believe so they bicker back and forth with each other, while your planet is collapsing. Read the book sunshine, Christ only emptied the graves once, when he was crucified, all the rest are waiting for his return (and the dead in Christ will rise first). Faith is 24/7 (because they were luke warm he will spew them out of his mouth). Read the book Christ wasn't even born in December, Easter is bullshit too. Read Matthew, especially chapter seven but stay out of the church while you read it and you'll learn a lot

 

[Jan Ardena]

Quick question - what do you mean by "faith"?
Are you meaning merely a "belief in God" - i.e. "I belong to this Faith"
Or some other meaning.

To me "faith" is something you use when you need to make a decision without all the necessary input to justify your decision.
Most of the time it's just another word for probability (based on evidence), but occasionally, as I feel with "religious faith", it refers to when there is no evidence to support even a probability-assessment.
I appreciate that some feel there is evidence for a God... but personally I don't, hence why I can make the distinction between "probability" and "religious faith" etc.

So just curious as to what you refer to by "faith"?

I see "faith" as a mixture of hope and belief, in and for something one cannot know in their current state of mind (no faith, no belief).
Kind of like a child wanting to be a great rock guitarist, but not currently knowing how to play the guitar let alone perform.
With the passing of time one learns to understand what it entails, usually realising it is alot simpler than originally thought.

Hope you're all having a nice christmas holiday.

jan.

 

[Raithere]

I've been involved in a discussion with some Christians on another forum, and they are telling me that their churches, the Bible, and Christianity in general does not make any specific demands that a person believe in Jesus as personal savior while alive. They say that the standard Christian belief is that everyone gets one more chance to stand before God and choose to have faith at that time, immediately after death

Is it really faith if you're dead and find yourself standing before God? I mean, that would be sufficient proof for me.

If I just got killed by a runaway hotdog cart and I'm still conscious and some deity comes and asks me if I believe in it, I'm saying yes.

It kind of defeats the whole faith thing. I mean, if it's going to be that easy God could just part the clouds, show his face and shout "Hello".

Of course, even the stalwart seem to think that deathbed conversions are okay. Just don't die by surprise.

~Raithere