What's up with Iraqi resistors?
- Thread starter static76
- Start date
Here is part of the text. sorry Goffy. hope you won't condense this. I had to put it in because some people here don't like reading. They're blind and listen to Fox and CNN.
UN Report on Humanitarian Crisis ~ March 30, 1999
Source: http://www.un.org/Depts/oip/panelrep.html
More UN Reports available at Epic's Resource Page
Economic and Social Indicators
Before Sanctions
Iraq's GDP may have fallen by nearly two-thirds in 1991, owing to an 85% decline in oil production and the devastation of the industrial and services sectors of the economy. Per capita income fell from 3,416 US dollars in 1984 to 1,500 in 1991 and has decreased to less than 1.036 in 1998. Other sources estimate a decrease in per capita GDP to as low as 450 US dollars in 1995.
Iraq's social and economic indicators were generally above the regional and developing country averages.
GDP in 1989 stood at 75.5 billion for a population of 18.3 million.
GDP growth had averaged 10.4% from 1974 to 1980. By 1988 GDP per capita totaled 3,510 US dollars.
With oil accounting for 60% of the country's GDP and 95% of foreign currency earnings, Iraq's economy was heavily dependent on the external sector and sensitive to oil price fluctuations.
In the early 1980's Iraq had been producing as many as 3.5 million barrels per day (BPD), but that amount declined to 2.8 million by 1989.
After
Iraq's GDP may have fallen by nearly two-thirds in 1991, owing to an 85% decline in oil production and the devastation of the industrial and services sectors of the economy. Per capita income fell from 3,416 US dollars in 1984 to 1,500 in 1991 and has decreased to less than 1.036 in 1998. Other sources estimate a decrease in per capita GDP to as low as 450 US dollars in 1995.
Oil for Food Deal: Although Iraq is exporting more oil than ever since 1991, revenue remains insufficient due to a negative correlation linking low oil prices, delays in obtaining spare parts for the oil industry and general obsolescence of oil infrastructure. The present ceiling of 5.2 billion US dollars [every 6 months] is not being met, with exports generating a maximum of 3.1 billion dollars.
It would take approximately 1.2 billion US dollars to ensure a gradual and sustainable increase in the production of crude oil in Iraq so as to allow for production levels to reach 3.000.000 BPD. The full rehabilitation of Iraq's oil industry, however, would require several billion dollars.
If and when sanctions are lifted, it will take a long time before the infrastructure is repaired and the economy recovers
Health of Women and Children
Before Sanctions
A major reduction of young child mortality took place from 1960 to 1990, with the infant mortality rate at 65 per 1.000 live births in 1989 (1991 Human Development Report average for developing countries was 76 per- 1.000 live births).
After
The maternal mortality rate increased from 50/100.000 live births in 1989 to 117/100.000 in 1997. The under-five child mortality rate increased from 30.2/1000 live births to 97.2/1000 during the same period.
Low birth weight babies (less than 2.5 kg) rose from 4% in 1990 to around a quarter of registered births in 1997, due mainly to maternal malnutrition.
As many as 70% of Iraqi women are suffering from anemia.
Water and Sanitation Networks
Before Sanctions
Before 1991, the South and Center of Iraq had a well developed water and sanitation system comprising over two hundred water treatment plants for urban areas and 1200 compact water treatment plants to serve rural areas, as well as an extensive distribution network.
WHO estimates that 90% of the population had access to an abundant quantity of safe drinking water.
There were modern mechanical means of collection and sanitary disposal.
After
In addition to the scarcity of resources, malnutrition problems also seem to stem from the massive deterioration in basic infrastructure, in particular in the water-supply and waste disposal systems.
The most vulnerable groups have been the hardest hit, especially children under five years of age who are being exposed to unhygienic conditions, particularly in urban centers.
The WFP estimates that access to potable water is currently 50% of the 1990 level in urban areas and only 33% in rural areas.
Food Production and Availability
Before Sanctions
Up to 1990, domestic food production represented only one third of total consumption for most essential food items, with the balance covered by imports.
Dietary energy supply averaged 3.120 kilo calories per capita/per day.
Due to its relative prosperity Iraq had the capacity to import large quantities of food, which met up to two thirds of its requirements at an average estimated cost of 2.5 billion US dollars a year, although in poor production years the food bill could rise to 3 billion.
After
The dietary energy supply had fallen from 3.120 to 1.093 kilo calories per capita/per day by 1994-95.
The prevalence of malnutrition in Iraqi children under five almost doubled from 1991 to 1996 (from 12% to 23%). Acute malnutrition in Center/South rose from 3% to 11% for the same age bracket.
Almost the whole young child population was affected by a shift in their nutritional status towards malnutrition.
WFP indicates that according to estimates for July 1995, average shop prices of essential commodities stood at 850 times the July 1990 level.
Education
Before Sanctions
As described by UNICEF, the Government of Iraq made sizable investments in the education sector from the mid-1970s until 1990.
According to UNESCO, educational policy included provision for scholarships, research facilities and medical support for students. By 1989 the combined primary and secondary enrollment ratio stood at 75% (slightly above the average for all developing countries at 70%, according to the Human Development Report for 1991) Illiteracy had been reduced to 20% by 1987.
Education accounted for over 5% of the state budget in 1989, above the developing country average of 3.8% (cf. UNDP Human Development Reports).
After
School enrollment for all ages (6-23) has declined to 53%. In Central and Southern governorates, 83% of school buildings needed rehabilitation, with 8,613 out of 10,334 schools having suffered serious damages. Some schools with a planned capacity of 700 pupils actually have 4,500 enrolled in them. Substantive progress in reducing adult and female illiteracy has ceased and regressed to mid-1980 levels, according to UNICEF. The rising number of street children and children who work can be explained, in part, as a result of increasing rates of school drop-outs and repetition, as more families are forced to rely on children to secure household incomes. Figures provided by UNESCO indicate that drop-outs in elementary schools increased from 95,692 in 1990 to 131,658 in 1999.
Electrical Power
Before Sanctions
UNDP indicates that although power stations had been targeted by the Iranian air force during the Iran-Iraq war, in 199O there were 126 power station units capable of generating 8.903 mw.
After
The accelerating decline of the power sector has had acute consequences for the humanitarian situation. The total remaining installed capacity today is about 7.500 mw, but inadequate maintenance and poor operating conditions have reduced the power actually generated to about half that figure at 3.500 mw.
UNDP analysis points out that aging equipment and the continuing effects of war damage have caused deterioration at nearly every level. In spite of a general decline in economic activity, demand currently exceeds supply by at least 1.000 mw, particularly during the peak summer load. Power shortages have consequently worsened to up to 6 hours a day since July 1998.
The shortage of electricity has been particularly visible in some parts of the Northern region, where this failure has adversely affected the water supply and health services. Two hydropower stations at Dokan and Derbendikhan, which together have a 649 mw capacity, constitute the only source of power for the Northern governorates.
UN Report on Humanitarian Crisis ~ March 30, 1999
Source: http://www.un.org/Depts/oip/panelrep.html
More UN Reports available at Epic's Resource Page
Economic and Social Indicators
Before Sanctions
Iraq's GDP may have fallen by nearly two-thirds in 1991, owing to an 85% decline in oil production and the devastation of the industrial and services sectors of the economy. Per capita income fell from 3,416 US dollars in 1984 to 1,500 in 1991 and has decreased to less than 1.036 in 1998. Other sources estimate a decrease in per capita GDP to as low as 450 US dollars in 1995.
Iraq's social and economic indicators were generally above the regional and developing country averages.
GDP in 1989 stood at 75.5 billion for a population of 18.3 million.
GDP growth had averaged 10.4% from 1974 to 1980. By 1988 GDP per capita totaled 3,510 US dollars.
With oil accounting for 60% of the country's GDP and 95% of foreign currency earnings, Iraq's economy was heavily dependent on the external sector and sensitive to oil price fluctuations.
In the early 1980's Iraq had been producing as many as 3.5 million barrels per day (BPD), but that amount declined to 2.8 million by 1989.
After
Iraq's GDP may have fallen by nearly two-thirds in 1991, owing to an 85% decline in oil production and the devastation of the industrial and services sectors of the economy. Per capita income fell from 3,416 US dollars in 1984 to 1,500 in 1991 and has decreased to less than 1.036 in 1998. Other sources estimate a decrease in per capita GDP to as low as 450 US dollars in 1995.
Oil for Food Deal: Although Iraq is exporting more oil than ever since 1991, revenue remains insufficient due to a negative correlation linking low oil prices, delays in obtaining spare parts for the oil industry and general obsolescence of oil infrastructure. The present ceiling of 5.2 billion US dollars [every 6 months] is not being met, with exports generating a maximum of 3.1 billion dollars.
It would take approximately 1.2 billion US dollars to ensure a gradual and sustainable increase in the production of crude oil in Iraq so as to allow for production levels to reach 3.000.000 BPD. The full rehabilitation of Iraq's oil industry, however, would require several billion dollars.
If and when sanctions are lifted, it will take a long time before the infrastructure is repaired and the economy recovers
Health of Women and Children
Before Sanctions
A major reduction of young child mortality took place from 1960 to 1990, with the infant mortality rate at 65 per 1.000 live births in 1989 (1991 Human Development Report average for developing countries was 76 per- 1.000 live births).
After
The maternal mortality rate increased from 50/100.000 live births in 1989 to 117/100.000 in 1997. The under-five child mortality rate increased from 30.2/1000 live births to 97.2/1000 during the same period.
Low birth weight babies (less than 2.5 kg) rose from 4% in 1990 to around a quarter of registered births in 1997, due mainly to maternal malnutrition.
As many as 70% of Iraqi women are suffering from anemia.
Water and Sanitation Networks
Before Sanctions
Before 1991, the South and Center of Iraq had a well developed water and sanitation system comprising over two hundred water treatment plants for urban areas and 1200 compact water treatment plants to serve rural areas, as well as an extensive distribution network.
WHO estimates that 90% of the population had access to an abundant quantity of safe drinking water.
There were modern mechanical means of collection and sanitary disposal.
After
In addition to the scarcity of resources, malnutrition problems also seem to stem from the massive deterioration in basic infrastructure, in particular in the water-supply and waste disposal systems.
The most vulnerable groups have been the hardest hit, especially children under five years of age who are being exposed to unhygienic conditions, particularly in urban centers.
The WFP estimates that access to potable water is currently 50% of the 1990 level in urban areas and only 33% in rural areas.
Food Production and Availability
Before Sanctions
Up to 1990, domestic food production represented only one third of total consumption for most essential food items, with the balance covered by imports.
Dietary energy supply averaged 3.120 kilo calories per capita/per day.
Due to its relative prosperity Iraq had the capacity to import large quantities of food, which met up to two thirds of its requirements at an average estimated cost of 2.5 billion US dollars a year, although in poor production years the food bill could rise to 3 billion.
After
The dietary energy supply had fallen from 3.120 to 1.093 kilo calories per capita/per day by 1994-95.
The prevalence of malnutrition in Iraqi children under five almost doubled from 1991 to 1996 (from 12% to 23%). Acute malnutrition in Center/South rose from 3% to 11% for the same age bracket.
Almost the whole young child population was affected by a shift in their nutritional status towards malnutrition.
WFP indicates that according to estimates for July 1995, average shop prices of essential commodities stood at 850 times the July 1990 level.
Education
Before Sanctions
As described by UNICEF, the Government of Iraq made sizable investments in the education sector from the mid-1970s until 1990.
According to UNESCO, educational policy included provision for scholarships, research facilities and medical support for students. By 1989 the combined primary and secondary enrollment ratio stood at 75% (slightly above the average for all developing countries at 70%, according to the Human Development Report for 1991) Illiteracy had been reduced to 20% by 1987.
Education accounted for over 5% of the state budget in 1989, above the developing country average of 3.8% (cf. UNDP Human Development Reports).
After
School enrollment for all ages (6-23) has declined to 53%. In Central and Southern governorates, 83% of school buildings needed rehabilitation, with 8,613 out of 10,334 schools having suffered serious damages. Some schools with a planned capacity of 700 pupils actually have 4,500 enrolled in them. Substantive progress in reducing adult and female illiteracy has ceased and regressed to mid-1980 levels, according to UNICEF. The rising number of street children and children who work can be explained, in part, as a result of increasing rates of school drop-outs and repetition, as more families are forced to rely on children to secure household incomes. Figures provided by UNESCO indicate that drop-outs in elementary schools increased from 95,692 in 1990 to 131,658 in 1999.
Electrical Power
Before Sanctions
UNDP indicates that although power stations had been targeted by the Iranian air force during the Iran-Iraq war, in 199O there were 126 power station units capable of generating 8.903 mw.
After
The accelerating decline of the power sector has had acute consequences for the humanitarian situation. The total remaining installed capacity today is about 7.500 mw, but inadequate maintenance and poor operating conditions have reduced the power actually generated to about half that figure at 3.500 mw.
UNDP analysis points out that aging equipment and the continuing effects of war damage have caused deterioration at nearly every level. In spite of a general decline in economic activity, demand currently exceeds supply by at least 1.000 mw, particularly during the peak summer load. Power shortages have consequently worsened to up to 6 hours a day since July 1998.
The shortage of electricity has been particularly visible in some parts of the Northern region, where this failure has adversely affected the water supply and health services. Two hydropower stations at Dokan and Derbendikhan, which together have a 649 mw capacity, constitute the only source of power for the Northern governorates.
Originally posted by static76
Your missing the point. Saddam caused the first Gulf War, that was his choice. He also chose not to comply with the UN, therefore the sanctions are his fault.
Saddam caused the first war? can you say "APRIL GLASPIE "?
U.S. Ambassador Glaspie - What solutions would be acceptab le?
Saddam Hussein - If we could keep the whole of the Shatt al Arab - our strategic goal in our war with Iran - we will make concessions (to the Kuwaitis). But, if we are forced to choose between keeping half of the Shatt and the whole of Iraq (i.e., in Saddam s view, including Kuwait ) then we will give up all of the Shatt to defend our claims on Kuwait to keep the whole of Iraq in the shape we wish it to be. (pause) What is the United States' opinion on this?
U.S. Ambassador Glaspie - We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary (of State James) Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960's, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America. (Saddam smiles)
On August 2, 1990, Saddam's massed troops invade and occupy Kuwait. _____
April Glaspie unequivocally assured Iraqis that the United States considered the dispute to be a regional concern, and that it would not intervene militarily. This was clear in her much-quoted conversation with Saddam Hussein 8 days before the Iraqi invasion: "We have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait."
Correcting revisionism long after the truth was mostly revealed can be tiring, and I'll resort to quoting WSJ contributor Robert L. Bartley:
"...Ambassador Glaspie's testimony, however, graphically displayed the State Department "mindset" about Iraq. Though Saddam had already gassed the Kurds and would execute any opposition leader who saw her, policy was directed at turning him into a moderate.
This notion took root during the Iraq-Iran war, and continued after its end in 1988. After the hostage-taking at the American embassy, the U.S. saw Iran as the greater threat, and sought a balance of power in the Gulf. In the five years before the invasion of Kuwait, the House Government Operations Committee found, the U.S. approved 771 export licenses to sell Saddam some $1.5 billion in equipment with military uses, including some that would help develop weapons of mass destruction. The result of the balance was to make enemies of both sides.
Even the hawks of the Reagan administration got into the act when the Israelis bombed Saddam's Osirak nuclear reactor, thus aborting his then-current nuclear program. Ambassador Jeane Kirkpatrick joined the United Nations vote condemning Israel. The Israelis had of course used American-built planes, with a new delivery impending..."
If America's sharp turns regarding Iraqi and other dictators have not been apparent to you, then a look at another perspective could be of considerable help in understanding.
Correcting revisionism long after the truth was mostly revealed can be tiring, and I'll resort to quoting WSJ contributor Robert L. Bartley:
"...Ambassador Glaspie's testimony, however, graphically displayed the State Department "mindset" about Iraq. Though Saddam had already gassed the Kurds and would execute any opposition leader who saw her, policy was directed at turning him into a moderate.
This notion took root during the Iraq-Iran war, and continued after its end in 1988. After the hostage-taking at the American embassy, the U.S. saw Iran as the greater threat, and sought a balance of power in the Gulf. In the five years before the invasion of Kuwait, the House Government Operations Committee found, the U.S. approved 771 export licenses to sell Saddam some $1.5 billion in equipment with military uses, including some that would help develop weapons of mass destruction. The result of the balance was to make enemies of both sides.
Even the hawks of the Reagan administration got into the act when the Israelis bombed Saddam's Osirak nuclear reactor, thus aborting his then-current nuclear program. Ambassador Jeane Kirkpatrick joined the United Nations vote condemning Israel. The Israelis had of course used American-built planes, with a new delivery impending..."
If America's sharp turns regarding Iraqi and other dictators have not been apparent to you, then a look at another perspective could be of considerable help in understanding.
Saddam made that decision to let them starve, stop trying to pass blame from its rightful source.
What is your problem static cant u even see beyond mono-dimensional thinking ? There is not 1 source there has been an entire complex of sources that are accountable as cause for the starvation of a peoples . The UN is a very big one as they are the negotiators to take the peoples out of suffering if they are INDEED friends of the people of Iraq .
So what will it be ?
Or any thinking individual...
There are 6 billion thinking individuals in this world , please do not use your semantical confusion for your rhetorical aims .
Thinking individuals , rather we should call them peoples who are smarter that you , they surely would come to the conclusion that living under Saddam Hussain for many peoples would be alot better than living under shock & awe followed by military pseudo-occuation bordering anarchy into humanitarian disaster .
I doubt you have done enough research into Iraqi living for the years under Saddam Hussain to not depend on tv-pictures , putting you in the necesity to be aquinted with Iraqi on a personal level which surely has not happened and if it did the chances would be that some traumatized refugee who does not represents the peoples of Iraq starts shoving his personal problems into national questions .
If there would be a democratic election tomorrow between pre-shock & awe Iraq and todays military occupation Saddam would get another one of his infamous 99.8% scores .
So yes , it is worse because this is anarchy . Everybody now sees their chance for Iraq as USA presence is driving hate for the peoples to revolt and create a civil war , creating opportunity for the foreigners to come in . The accountability-list is not done yet .
Funny how you dismiss Kuwait's right to exist, yet a scum nation like Iraq you feel should be allowed to do what they want.
1) Give me an argument why the nation of 25 million peoples of Iraq is scumbag or shut your inferior mouth .
2) Saddam Hussain was a Ba'athist brought in with a CIA coup . Saddam Hussain was USA's puppet-enemy of the Islamic revolution in Iran . Saddam Hussain has not represented the interests Iraqi interests in any way .
3) Kuweit is a state that has no historical ground nor a social ground . Kuweit is a bastard creation of a monarch-dynasty used for Brittish needs to steal Arab oil , Arab wealth that is being held hostage by less than a million trator pseudo-citizens who outhold what is not theirs so they can pretend to be European all day .
And if that wasnt enough already , they exploit their shitty piece of unused land at Um Qasr that stopped the development of the port desperatly necesary to relieve Basra . Kuweit didnt care and didnt allow it because its supposedly THEIR shity piece of UNUSED island that needed to be dealt with for the devlopment .
But ofcourse I shouldnt expect for you to care about any reasons for the Kuweiti issues , but that I shouldnt even expect you to have any information or knowledge on the subject you manage to opinionate on is ridiculous .
I have said it before I am sure but your pseudo-signature shows a level of juche beyond imagination . As fascinating I am by Kim Jung Ill and his orwellian indoctrination , their results do not match with the ignorance that is in the mind of a person pronouncing that sentence with pride .
Saddam invaded Iraq, that was his decision. Save your conspiracy theories for Oliver Stone.
If after that mass of information this is what comes out of your mouth it shows you lack the required mental capability to participate in a debate .
If that is what comes out of your mouth without reading it , you should learn to understand that information does not fail to exist when you try to repress its existance . The road you must have been on to come to such points cannot be assumed any more intelligent than the previously mentioned .
Blaming the US for the Gulf war is absurd, and passes the blame from where it should be
The only absurd thing here is you and your level of indoctrination , lack of understanding complexty and . There is no 'passing' the ammount of responsibility for Saddam does not 'lessen' any responsibility others have on the matters .
What is your problem static cant u even see beyond mono-dimensional thinking ? There is not 1 source there has been an entire complex of sources that are accountable as cause for the starvation of a peoples . The UN is a very big one as they are the negotiators to take the peoples out of suffering if they are INDEED friends of the people of Iraq .
So what will it be ?
Or any thinking individual...
There are 6 billion thinking individuals in this world , please do not use your semantical confusion for your rhetorical aims .
Thinking individuals , rather we should call them peoples who are smarter that you , they surely would come to the conclusion that living under Saddam Hussain for many peoples would be alot better than living under shock & awe followed by military pseudo-occuation bordering anarchy into humanitarian disaster .
I doubt you have done enough research into Iraqi living for the years under Saddam Hussain to not depend on tv-pictures , putting you in the necesity to be aquinted with Iraqi on a personal level which surely has not happened and if it did the chances would be that some traumatized refugee who does not represents the peoples of Iraq starts shoving his personal problems into national questions .
If there would be a democratic election tomorrow between pre-shock & awe Iraq and todays military occupation Saddam would get another one of his infamous 99.8% scores .
So yes , it is worse because this is anarchy . Everybody now sees their chance for Iraq as USA presence is driving hate for the peoples to revolt and create a civil war , creating opportunity for the foreigners to come in . The accountability-list is not done yet .
Funny how you dismiss Kuwait's right to exist, yet a scum nation like Iraq you feel should be allowed to do what they want.
1) Give me an argument why the nation of 25 million peoples of Iraq is scumbag or shut your inferior mouth .
2) Saddam Hussain was a Ba'athist brought in with a CIA coup . Saddam Hussain was USA's puppet-enemy of the Islamic revolution in Iran . Saddam Hussain has not represented the interests Iraqi interests in any way .
3) Kuweit is a state that has no historical ground nor a social ground . Kuweit is a bastard creation of a monarch-dynasty used for Brittish needs to steal Arab oil , Arab wealth that is being held hostage by less than a million trator pseudo-citizens who outhold what is not theirs so they can pretend to be European all day .
And if that wasnt enough already , they exploit their shitty piece of unused land at Um Qasr that stopped the development of the port desperatly necesary to relieve Basra . Kuweit didnt care and didnt allow it because its supposedly THEIR shity piece of UNUSED island that needed to be dealt with for the devlopment .
But ofcourse I shouldnt expect for you to care about any reasons for the Kuweiti issues , but that I shouldnt even expect you to have any information or knowledge on the subject you manage to opinionate on is ridiculous .
I have said it before I am sure but your pseudo-signature shows a level of juche beyond imagination . As fascinating I am by Kim Jung Ill and his orwellian indoctrination , their results do not match with the ignorance that is in the mind of a person pronouncing that sentence with pride .
Saddam invaded Iraq, that was his decision. Save your conspiracy theories for Oliver Stone.
If after that mass of information this is what comes out of your mouth it shows you lack the required mental capability to participate in a debate .
If that is what comes out of your mouth without reading it , you should learn to understand that information does not fail to exist when you try to repress its existance . The road you must have been on to come to such points cannot be assumed any more intelligent than the previously mentioned .
Blaming the US for the Gulf war is absurd, and passes the blame from where it should be
The only absurd thing here is you and your level of indoctrination , lack of understanding complexty and . There is no 'passing' the ammount of responsibility for Saddam does not 'lessen' any responsibility others have on the matters .
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However it may have evolved Kuwait is an independent country now and Saddam had no right to invade it anymore then he had the right to invade Iran. He was a repeat offender.
The world was willing to provide food and medicine to the Iranian people. Saddam refused to distribute what was shipped. Ironically the only way to get the food to the people was to invade.
The world was willing to provide food and medicine to the Iranian people. Saddam refused to distribute what was shipped. Ironically the only way to get the food to the people was to invade.
However it may have evolved Kuwait is an independent country now and Saddam had no right to invade it anymore then he had the right to invade Iran. He was a repeat offender.
By showing the irrelevantness of causes for such invasion you simply denounce invasion by defintion . Souvereignity is nothing but a deal between some peoples and the mere fact that the powerfull ones attempt to hold on on it does not make it of any value .
Value is determined by reason and that is what decides the relevancy of 'how it may have evolved' that you denounce .
We end up with endless and unrealistic pacifism . Where there is inequality and injustice there will be conflict , simply denying the existance of the reasons does not do away the problem to be solved .
By showing the irrelevantness of causes for such invasion you simply denounce invasion by defintion . Souvereignity is nothing but a deal between some peoples and the mere fact that the powerfull ones attempt to hold on on it does not make it of any value .
Value is determined by reason and that is what decides the relevancy of 'how it may have evolved' that you denounce .
We end up with endless and unrealistic pacifism . Where there is inequality and injustice there will be conflict , simply denying the existance of the reasons does not do away the problem to be solved .
Im amazed anyone is still falling for the "Saddam is an evil guy" ploy. All the countries in the region have at times erupted into episodes of great violence. I remember accounts of the Syrians laying siege to one of their cities, killing almost 20,000 of their own people for demanding an Islamic government. I think its hard for people to understand that many of the countries in the region are going through continous periods of civil unrest. Sometimes it takes a strongman dictator to keep such things from errupting into huge spouts of violence or even civil-war. Certainly we are seeing evidence of this today with the rival bombings of Shiite factions in southern Iraq.
Ah well, never underestimate the power of FOX News.
Ah well, never underestimate the power of FOX News.
I do not disagree on dictatorships per-se but I do disagree on dictatorships within :
a) countries that are result of imperialism and share no ideological or historical or ethnical common bond .
b) after neglecting , the dictatorship is formed of minor groups that rule over a vast unrepresented majority's .
So no it shouldnt be there , and when it still is it shouldnt choose the smallest group .
Ofcourse this all is inevitable because of the prime-reason of all isues , imperial mapmaking .
In Syria you speak of Hamma , a Sunni city . The vast majority of Syria (another product of imperialism) is Sunni , yet the pseudo-dynasty of the Assad's within the secular Ba'ath movement is of Alawi decend .
Anyways I cant agree with you more on your concusion of the 'evil' myth . In Arabia everybody is evil and brutal who is on top , that is what you get when you allow darwinist principles transformed into the moral of material to rule nations for benefits of capitalist driven western institutions .
a) countries that are result of imperialism and share no ideological or historical or ethnical common bond .
b) after neglecting , the dictatorship is formed of minor groups that rule over a vast unrepresented majority's .
So no it shouldnt be there , and when it still is it shouldnt choose the smallest group .
Ofcourse this all is inevitable because of the prime-reason of all isues , imperial mapmaking .
In Syria you speak of Hamma , a Sunni city . The vast majority of Syria (another product of imperialism) is Sunni , yet the pseudo-dynasty of the Assad's within the secular Ba'ath movement is of Alawi decend .
Anyways I cant agree with you more on your concusion of the 'evil' myth . In Arabia everybody is evil and brutal who is on top , that is what you get when you allow darwinist principles transformed into the moral of material to rule nations for benefits of capitalist driven western institutions .
"mono-dimensional thinking"? LOL
When people claim that the UN is responsible for the deaths attributed to Iraqi sanctions, I have a problem. Saddam is the who started the Gulf war by invading Kuwait, and the one who didn't comply with the UN. Therefore, SADDAM is to blame for the deaths.
This isn't a one-dimensional look at the situation, it's reality. I'm not even a fan of sanctions as a diplomatic tool, but that's the road the UN took. Those countries had every right not to deal with Iraq, we dion't live under a one World government.
*yawn*....*scratch*
Maybe the criminals who wroked in Saddam's administraton liked it better, but I'm sure most love the fact that he's gone. Of course most also want the US out now too.
Saddam's rule was a cruel and horrible time period for the Iraqi people, freedom exceeds no freedom.
I truly don't care what you doubt. I have known quite a few Iraqi-American immigrants(LA has a big middle eastern population). And most would either laugh at the ridiculous view of Saddam's reign you have, or feel pity for your ignorance.
Yes...at gun point from Iraqi soldiers.
Anarchy? Hardly.
Unlike the movies or TV, wars take time, and changing around a antion the size of Iraq is no small endeavor. Freedom comes at a price, and doesn't come easy.
Buwahaha!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2921553.stm
I don't argue the first part of your statement, but to say that Saddam has not represented Iraqi interests in any way is idiotic.
Thanks for the info Saddam....er...I mean Ghassan.
I really don't give a damn whether Kuwait had any historical or social ground. The UN recognized it as a nation, and Iraq invaded it. Case closed.
You got one thing right, I really don't care about Kuwaiti issues.
Does "Truth, Justice, and the American way" bother you???
Oh well, fuck off and deal with it.
I read it, and it didn't change my mind on anything. Saddam is still to blame for the Gulf War, and the sanctions Iraq recieved.
I have what we here in America call "critical thinking skills", and I don't need to be spoon fed articles in order to have an opinion.
Argh...You just don't get it.
The responsibility rested with Saddam. It was HIS choices that nrought these events about. Sure, we can say that the UN would have been better served to follow another diplomatic solution, we could also say that this nation did this, and this nation did that, and so on. No one is saying that the UN or US are saints in this either, but the fact remains that Saddam bears the vast majority of the blame, he made the decisions that caused the Gulf War, and the sanctions.
Thats how bad it is when you think that a phenomenon has one personal source .
* The UN is created out of western interests for western purposes , internal Arab conflicts do not require any compilation with demands that come from such institution . Especially from an Amerikan like yourself who supports the policy that has proved irellevance of UN order this is a hypocritical perspective .
* The invasion of Kuweit is considered as such because of Western interests of in Kuweit . Since these interests do not collide with Arab interests , there is no authoritair claim the West can make regarding the issue Kuweit .
* Again I will repeat it to you , phenomena we perceive have not only 1 cause in one person . The fact that you cannot understand this is calls for concern and questioning of the us of your participation in any discussion on political issues .
* There is a causal relation between the UN-sanctions and the death-toll of the Iraqi , by simply ignoring this through throwing it all on Saddam you really do not disprove anything . The relation has been explained by others on this thread already please deal with it .
A true caveman
We are not discussing the fact that he is gone , we are discussing the fact that he is replaced by this current military occupation . You obviously have no knowledge whatsoever on Iraqi society , and who exactly experienced what during the period of his rule .
Nobody asks of you to care however you obviously care enough to engage in a convesation where you tell me that you dont care . Iraqi immigrants do not represent Iraqi peoples , perhaps you cannot understand this but there is a relation between the personal reason of their immigration and their overal view of Iraq . Most would not laugh most cry like the traumatized creature that they are as they have experienced things
MOST IRAQI HAVE NOT .
But again I dont expect you to understand any of it , your simplistic view of Iraqi society should not motivate you to express your opinion about it . Go count some sheep instead .
Not from free will because it is better than the anarchy of today .
You talking to me about movies or tv ? Have you ever had another vision of Iraq than through those pathetic media of yours ? Nobody questions that wars take time nobody asks for your time-taking wars .
The price for your 'freedom' nobody ever was offered to pay . Nobody agreed on your war not Iraqi's not Arabs and not even your shitty UN .
How does that link show that Iraq is sccumbagnation ? Are you to stupid to not understand that Saddams crimes do not represent the nation of Iraq ? If you are stupid enough , then why did you agree to go there in the first place as they would a\obviously be free enough to be responsible for the crimes of their CIA leader in order to be called a scumbag nation .
So we can conclude that those inferior noises coming from your direction have no value whatsoever yes ?
Then why do you call it a scumbag nation ? The only time when Saddam actually represented Iraqi interests is when he took Kuweit . All those other years he represented his own interests and that of his USA buddies , not that of Iraq .
So you didnt even know ? It was a pleasure Goebbels
And UN is allmight super-creation we all have to bow down to nomatter what yes ?
You dont have any case to close .
Then why the fuck are you discussing them here ? Shut the fuck up and go jerk on your flag .
Rather the combination and implication . But with the word itself as well they're 2 continents not your shitty 50 states .
You're the one here who cant conclude shit for himself and repeats whatever he hears on FOX , you are who has issues to deal with hear mr JUCHE .
Critical thinking skills you dont even have awareness of logics , who the hell are you trying to fool here ?
You cant even udnerstand that there are more than one causes to cphenomena its beyond pathetic , how old are you anyways with your critical thinking 16 ? If you are my apologies for expecting toomuch from you .
And its was YOUR choice to bring those events about , what you dont understand is that the only reason you put the 'cause' on Saddam and the 'effect' on yourself and UN is because you dont consider the 'cause' that regards the choice of Saddam as an 'effect' . Again this is expected as you have absolutely no idea what you are talking , as you have admitted nor do you care to have any idea .
Confirming your innumerously expressed opinion by agreeing with another person for the purpose of disagreement with me is just pathetic .
Ghassan Kanafani,
This thread has gone way off topic and turned into a back and forth shitfest between the two of us.
So I'm going to steer this this thing back on course, and ask if this and the UN bombing would be justified in your opinion, if it increased resistance to US occupation?
This thread has gone way off topic and turned into a back and forth shitfest between the two of us.
So I'm going to steer this this thing back on course, and ask if this and the UN bombing would be justified in your opinion, if it increased resistance to US occupation?
So I'm going to steer this this thing back on course, and ask if this and the UN bombing would be justified in your opinion, if it increased resistance to US occupation?
an entire UN-cleansement would be justififed , however more importantly is rather weither it is in favor of the peoples of Iraq and it is not . The only hope Iraq has is through a federation but such can only develop in a stable situation in which UN-assistance is necesary . The first problem at hand is the USA occupation , and that is what should be dealt with .
an entire UN-cleansement would be justififed , however more importantly is rather weither it is in favor of the peoples of Iraq and it is not . The only hope Iraq has is through a federation but such can only develop in a stable situation in which UN-assistance is necesary . The first problem at hand is the USA occupation , and that is what should be dealt with .
candy :
I doubt that the Kurdish people support your postion. They have suffered too much for too long for the rest of the world to ignore their plight any longer.
Actually they havent really suffered somuch the last 10 years as they were relatively independant , that is if you are speaking of the Kurdish peoples in Iraq . I am aware of Kurdish suffering I have Kurdish friends who would want nothing other then Kurdistan , but if they would not remain in Iraq at the current time and decide seperation instead of being locally virtually independant with in federation , Turkey will be coming in there that is guaranteed . With the movements within Syria and what is left of Iraq this could become an immense war between Arabs , Turks and Kurds . Ofcourse the foreign circles choose position and the traditional cold war games can begin , what will be left of their Kurdistan then ? Are they willing to die together with Kurdistan today , or gain a virtually independant Kurdish state within an Iraqi federation that sloly can develop a refugee for many Kurds untill the day comes when they can be completely independant as Kurdistan .
If they choose to act now there will be little left of Kurdistan to declare a state , along with few Kurds to actually inhabit it . Turkey needs time and so does Syria , I think eventually we can come to a peacefull solution together , if we can build a base of trust now in Iraq .
I dont think it would be the Iraqi Kurds that would oppose my solution , I think it would be outside interests that keep pulling on parts of Iraq for their own benefits , what would eventually make the country collapse into civil war .
I doubt that the Kurdish people support your postion. They have suffered too much for too long for the rest of the world to ignore their plight any longer.
Actually they havent really suffered somuch the last 10 years as they were relatively independant , that is if you are speaking of the Kurdish peoples in Iraq . I am aware of Kurdish suffering I have Kurdish friends who would want nothing other then Kurdistan , but if they would not remain in Iraq at the current time and decide seperation instead of being locally virtually independant with in federation , Turkey will be coming in there that is guaranteed . With the movements within Syria and what is left of Iraq this could become an immense war between Arabs , Turks and Kurds . Ofcourse the foreign circles choose position and the traditional cold war games can begin , what will be left of their Kurdistan then ? Are they willing to die together with Kurdistan today , or gain a virtually independant Kurdish state within an Iraqi federation that sloly can develop a refugee for many Kurds untill the day comes when they can be completely independant as Kurdistan .
If they choose to act now there will be little left of Kurdistan to declare a state , along with few Kurds to actually inhabit it . Turkey needs time and so does Syria , I think eventually we can come to a peacefull solution together , if we can build a base of trust now in Iraq .
I dont think it would be the Iraqi Kurds that would oppose my solution , I think it would be outside interests that keep pulling on parts of Iraq for their own benefits , what would eventually make the country collapse into civil war .