Whats the best way to deal with indoctrinated people?

[w1z4rd]

This is a very real and serious question that deals with my life locally, and the worlds abroad.

Let me give you some real life examples that I deal with on a regular basis.

1) Old white people in South Africa. They were brought up under the Apartheid government and were well brainwashed. They really have this whole "Swart gevaar" thing deeply embroiled into the way they think. They honestly believe that if black people are not managed, that black people will randomly turn on you and attack you. (the whole black vs white thing was trained into white people like the whole east vs west is trained into middle east people)

2) The Chinese and Mao. For some reason I LOVE CHINESE PEOPLE!!! Their food, their woman and their culture.. and often find myself in serious discussions with people in mainland China. The problem is they have been brought up to believe that Mao is actually a respected leader. You try tell them that Mao had a head count larger than Stalin or Hitler and they go all quiet (often walking away from the PC!!!).. then come back with, "I am not qualified to talk politics".

3) Russians. They have this whole post war blues thing going on and anyone or anything that brings them pride and some kinda association with their former "glory days". While the argument "well its better than it was" seems to be the general response... thats not really a good argument considering its past.. ANYTHING is better than it was. Mind you the other argument I heard is "Russia needs a strong leader".. but then the Hitler/End of WW1 and his rise to power analogies just come rushing in.

I would say these are the three indoctrinations I deal with on a regular basis. For sanities sake I have decided to leave out the Middle East and Religion (as I am not sure there is any kind of hope in that area).

Am I wrong to engage people in debates? Is me wanting to engage in open dialog about issues that most people would rather push under the rug a form of indoctrination in itself?

Is there a point in discussing reality with people who are indoctrinated?

I want true freedom of speech (like you almost get on the Internet), I want governments to serve their people and not the other way around. I want people to say what they want without fear of death or persecution. I want people to live with the freedoms I have.

However, I also realize that when discussing things like "basic human rights" vs "cultural rights".. that I may be in a way trying to indoctrinate people into my way of thinking... which kinda gives me some moral confusion.

Whats the best way to deal with these people or these kind of situations? I feel I need to speak to people and help them think differently as I am a stickler for honesty and truth. I feel education is the only weapon against indoctrination.

While speaking to these people I dont try break their world view bubbles and (say with the Chinese), tell them that Mao was the sickest thing to happen to China. My recent method of engagement is identify the criteria that Mao is respected, and using those same criteria apply it to Hitler and Stalin and basically point out that if Mao is a "respected leader", then by same criteria.. so are Stalin and Hitler.

Rather than attacking their point of view, I try guide it into perspective.

I dont know if what I am doing is right or wrong, and I dont know the best way to deal with these kinda situations. What do you suggest?

 

[Enmos]

Rather than attacking their point of view, I try guide it into perspective.

Good luck with that
Neither will work, they'll have to figure it out by themselves I'm afraid.

 

[w1z4rd]

I have noticed that indoctrination is a lot like drug addiction. You first have to get someone to realize they have a problem before you can fix it.

The person like with a drug addiction has to take accountability and responsibility for their actions instead of blaming the drug the whole time.

99% of indoctrinated people think they are completely morally right.. which makes this harder.

I know the whole saying about leading a horse to water so I know the uphill battle one has from the start.

 

[S.A.M.]

Are you indoctrinated?

 

[John99]

One similarity to drug addiction is when everyone around you is doing it it (the lifestyle) seems normal. This is similar to what we seen with the Nazi's. Of course drug addiction includes physical desire etc.

 

[Enmos]

Are you indoctrinated?

No one is

 

[John99]

Well one way is to develop elder scrolls.

 

[cosmictraveler]

Whats the best way to deal with these people or these kind of situations

Remember that people in those countries have the governments watching them very closely and what they say could be used against them if they are found out they are talking against their respected governments point of view.

 

[Bells]

A rubber hose usually works. If that fails, I would suggest a whole frozen tuna.

 

[Search & Destroy]

You and the Racists are both indoctrinated with opposing views. Can't teach an old dog new tricks eh? So you teach their kids.

 

[Cazzo]

I want true freedom of speech (like you almost get on the Internet), I want governments to serve their people and not the other way around. I want people to say what they want without fear of death or persecution. I want people to live with the freedoms I have.

What country do you live in ???
Even the U.S. isn't the "land of the free" anymore.
Try saying something not politically correct at a public college or university and you be disciplined and labeled "insensitive"; perhaps even be forced to go to some "sensitivity training" courses, or even be kicked out of school.
Even in some companies, or working for the govt. in the U.S., if you say something not politically correct you could get fired.

It's just a matter of time before the internet gets controlled by the PC police, and you won't be able to speak your mind on the internet. The UN has been trying recently to take control of the internet as some people know : http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2005/10/17/dont_give_un_control_over_internet/
The primary backers if this are Communist China and Communist Cuba. And if you're wondering how the UN would control the internet, China would be a good model.....

 

[wsionynw]

Freedom of information seems to work quite well, censorship of course is a major hinderence.

 

[ancientregime]

Is there a point in discussing reality with people who are indoctrinated?

Yes, but you must be very careful. It depends on how far they are off. You have to walk them slowly and patiently to a better way. People change slowly. They never take big leaps and bounds. The ones who take big leaps and bounds may just take big leaps and bounds back the other way. Most of all be most careful that you don't walk them in the wrong direction. That is hard to do, because you don't know how smart you are, because you are not smarter than yourself.

I want true freedom of speech (like you almost get on the Internet), I want governments to serve their people and not the other way around. I want people to say what they want without fear of death or persecution. I want people to live with the freedoms I have.

Freedom of expression is necessary for all progress. But don't be fooled that just because our constitution says we have it, that we really do. State and local laws and business laws trample the constitution all the time. Socialist models have it better and are able to progress due it. How so? As pointed out in an another post, we can be fired under our Capitlist model for saying something unpopular. This creates an ass-kiss mentality (metastasizing upon the social constructs of the country) which strangulates progress in many ways. Socialist models are protected by unions. Sure, you may have to put up with a few complainers, but the truth can be spoken without worry, and things can get done that need to be done. I believe kissing-ass is the fundamental problem that brought us to the present financial mess we are in. For example, we've known the energy crisis was imminent from the 70's, but we kissed the oil and auto industries asses this whole time and now we have to replace the entire infrastructure anyway, just in a shorter amount of time, with bigger appetites, a larger volume of growth, and a lower standard of living.

 

[swarm]

I have a good friend from SA.

He's white. His best friend is black.

I guess some people get past it.

 

[eddie23]

I am indoctranated in the " bush is a fuckin moron " group.

I realy dont think any one will be able to talk me out of it.

 

[iceaura]

I dont know if what I am doing is right or wrong, and I dont know the best way to deal with these kinda situations. What do you suggest?

I would suggest boning up on the actual circumstances surrounding Mao and the Russian experience, from the Chinese and Russian pov.

You may find you have miscalculated a bit, in your assignment of delusion.

 

[Challenger78]

This is a very real and serious question that deals with my life locally, and the worlds abroad.

Let me give you some real life examples that I deal with on a regular basis.

1) Old white people in South Africa. They were brought up under the Apartheid government and were well brainwashed. They really have this whole "Swart gevaar" thing deeply embroiled into the way they think. They honestly believe that if black people are not managed, that black people will randomly turn on you and attack you. (the whole black vs white thing was trained into white people like the whole east vs west is trained into middle east people)

Wizard, I face the same dilema that you do, here's what I try to do.

Nothing you can do about them, to them their whole life only validates the experiences they have been taught in childhood. Better off focusing on the young. See if you can engage them on another, more personal level, or find humor in their stereotypes.

2) The Chinese and Mao. For some reason I LOVE CHINESE PEOPLE!!! Their food, their woman and their culture.. and often find myself in serious discussions with people in mainland China. The problem is they have been brought up to believe that Mao is actually a respected leader. You try tell them that Mao had a head count larger than Stalin or Hitler and they go all quiet (often walking away from the PC!!!).. then come back with, "I am not qualified to talk politics".

If they're migrants, ask them why they have migrated in the first place, and lead in from their. Culture is disappearing due to globalisation anyway, so we should be seeing a difference from this soon. If your way works, guide their perspective. If not, maybe bring a book with you perhaps authored by some former communist party members. I'm sure there's one around.

Tell them that everyone is qualified to talk politics, simply because politics itself means "of citizens or the state, civil, civic"

3) Russians. They have this whole post war blues thing going on and anyone or anything that brings them pride and some kinda association with their former "glory days". While the argument "well its better than it was" seems to be the general response... thats not really a good argument considering its past.. ANYTHING is better than it was. Mind you the other argument I heard is "Russia needs a strong leader".. but then the Hitler/End of WW1 and his rise to power analogies just come rushing in.

Don't know about this one, Are they encouraging pride in the current republic or the Soviet union ?

I would say these are the three indoctrinations I deal with on a regular basis. For sanities sake I have decided to leave out the Middle East and Religion (as I am not sure there is any kind of hope in that area).

Am I wrong to engage people in debates? Is me wanting to engage in open dialog about issues that most people would rather push under the rug a form of indoctrination in itself?

No, By exposing flaws in their perception, you are improving yours, engaging in debate can only be healthy for you. It's not wrong to seek knowledge, unless you harm someone in the process (To Liebling: Damn you, Mary Shelley!)

Is there a point in discussing reality with people who are indoctrinated?

I want true freedom of speech (like you almost get on the Internet), I want governments to serve their people and not the other way around. I want people to say what they want without fear of death or persecution. I want people to live with the freedoms I have.

However, I also realize that when discussing things like "basic human rights" vs "cultural rights".. that I may be in a way trying to indoctrinate people into my way of thinking... which kinda gives me some moral confusion.

But by attempting to convince them of your way of thinking, are you not testing and restructuring your own thought patterns ?, If people respond to your thoughts without the use of coercion or indoctrination, then aren't your thoughts reasonable and correct? Think of it not as convincing them of your way of thinking, which is a bonus, but of convincing yourself. The more you debate, the more you'll be aware of flaws in your case.

Whats the best way to deal with these people or these kind of situations? I feel I need to speak to people and help them think differently as I am a stickler for honesty and truth. I feel education is the only weapon against indoctrination.

While speaking to these people I dont try break their world view bubbles and (say with the Chinese), tell them that Mao was the sickest thing to happen to China. My recent method of engagement is identify the criteria that Mao is respected, and using those same criteria apply it to Hitler and Stalin and basically point out that if Mao is a "respected leader", then by same criteria.. so are Stalin and Hitler.

Rather than attacking their point of view, I try guide it into perspective.

I dont know if what I am doing is right or wrong, and I dont know the best way to deal with these kinda situations. What do you suggest?

It all depends on the amount you care. If it's a loved one, and the views are actively harming their reputation and/or mindset, then IMO, you'd be a bit more trying.

I would suggest backing up your perspectives with evidence, if your friends are reasonable, then that should help. If not, then really, there's not much you can do. Perhaps a display of their viewpoints effects, (starving children/death, etc), come into them. But then you run the risk of just saying
X= bad, instead of, This is why X=Bad, and Y=good.

Me personally? , I don't confront them unless they're actually spreading their views.

 

[w1z4rd]

Are you indoctrinated?

I could be, but I really hope people would point out my errors, and since I dont deal in absolutes I can be swayed with reason and rationality.

What country do you live in ???
Even the U.S. isn't the "land of the free" anymore.
Try saying something not politically correct at a public college or university and you be disciplined and labeled "insensitive"; perhaps even be forced to go to some "sensitivity training" courses, or even be kicked out of school.
Even in some companies, or working for the govt. in the U.S., if you say something not politically correct you could get fired.

South Africa.. we have freedom of speech, but with that freedom comes responsibility. I can say anything I want about political leaders with no fear of retribution.

Due to our past history we have made racism taboo and there are penalties for blatant racism. Though tribalism is now a bigger issue in SA than racism.

It's just a matter of time before the internet gets controlled by the PC police, and you won't be able to speak your mind on the internet. The UN has been trying recently to take control of the internet as some people know : http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2005/10/17/dont_give_un_control_over_internet/
The primary backers if this are Communist China and Communist Cuba. And if you're wondering how the UN would control the internet, China would be a good model.....

Im all for Net Neutrality and so is Obama. America holding all the cards doesnt make the rest of the world feel safe.

I have a good friend from SA.

He's white. His best friend is black.

I guess some people get past it.

Most of our country is over it except the more religious types who are stuck in their ways. But its an age thing. I grew up in a free south africa, my parents grew up in Apartheid South Africa. White South Africans took responsibility for their mistakes and black South Africans did the same... and without playing the blame game like the Middle East enjoys doing all the time.

Im white, most of my friends are black. *shrug*. They themselves are a different generation to their parents.

South Africa is a rainbow nation now. One build on diversity.

I would suggest boning up on the actual circumstances surrounding Mao and the Russian experience, from the Chinese and Russian pov.

You may find you have miscalculated a bit, in your assignment of delusion.

I have, in fact just a couple of weeks ago I finished a book called "Wild Swan, Three daughters of China", and since my best friend is Russian .. I have an intense interest in their history. Could you perhaps enlighten me with your infinite information on where I miscalculated? What exactly did I "miscalculate" with? My opinion can be swayed with logic, rationality and reason so I am all ears.

Wizard, I face the same dilema that you do, here's what I try to do.

Nothing you can do about them, to them their whole life only validates the experiences they have been taught in childhood. Better off focusing on the young. See if you can engage them on another, more personal level, or find humor in their stereotypes.



If they're migrants, ask them why they have migrated in the first place, and lead in from their. Culture is disappearing due to globalisation anyway, so we should be seeing a difference from this soon. If your way works, guide their perspective. If not, maybe bring a book with you perhaps authored by some former communist party members. I'm sure there's one around.

Tell them that everyone is qualified to talk politics, simply because politics itself means "of citizens or the state, civil, civic"


Don't know about this one, Are they encouraging pride in the current republic or the Soviet union ?




No, By exposing flaws in their perception, you are improving yours, engaging in debate can only be healthy for you. It's not wrong to seek knowledge, unless you harm someone in the process (To Liebling: Damn you, Mary Shelley!)




But by attempting to convince them of your way of thinking, are you not testing and restructuring your own thought patterns ?, If people respond to your thoughts without the use of coercion or indoctrination, then aren't your thoughts reasonable and correct? Think of it not as convincing them of your way of thinking, which is a bonus, but of convincing yourself. The more you debate, the more you'll be aware of flaws in your case.




It all depends on the amount you care. If it's a loved one, and the views are actively harming their reputation and/or mindset, then IMO, you'd be a bit more trying.

I would suggest backing up your perspectives with evidence, if your friends are reasonable, then that should help. If not, then really, there's not much you can do. Perhaps a display of their viewpoints effects, (starving children/death, etc), come into them. But then you run the risk of just saying
X= bad, instead of, This is why X=Bad, and Y=good.

Me personally? , I don't confront them unless they're actually spreading their views.

Thanks for the post. I

 

[iceaura]

What exactly did I "miscalculate" with?

Well, for starters, the "head count" of Mao's misleads. Mao did not set out to do mass murder on the scale of Stalin or Hitler - he did some, but most of the deaths under Mao were a combination of the ruination of war, the essential mistake of government controlled collective farming on an industrial scale, and the bad luck of a major drought hitting right at the vulnerable changeover time.

Meanwhile, consider his accomplishments- he unified China, and threw out the gunboats and foreign occupations. He did set the stage for the rise of the ordinary Chinese person, after generations of servility and galling abuse. (Probably the worst mass murder in 20th Century China was Chiang Kai-Shek's blowing of the dikes to impede the Japanese army. On an efficiency scale, possibly the worst mass murder of all time. That kind of sheer indifference to ordinary Chinese people and their welfare was what had been the norm for generations before Mao).

 

[w1z4rd]

Well, for starters, the "head count" of Mao's misleads. Mao did not set out to do mass murder on the scale of Stalin or Hitler - he did some, but most of the deaths under Mao were a combination of the ruination of war, the essential mistake of government controlled collective farming on an industrial scale, and the bad luck of a major drought hitting right at the vulnerable changeover time.

Erm... well according to chinese who lived during those times in the eye witness accounts I have read it was that bad. It was worst during the Cult of Mao.

I read up how he screwed up the food supply by trying to increase iron and steel production which led to the food shortage. Im not unaware of what happened in that time period.

Meanwhile, consider his accomplishments- he unified China, and threw out the gunboats and foreign occupations. He did set the stage for the rise of the ordinary Chinese person, after generations of servility and galling abuse. (Probably the worst mass murder in 20th Century China was Chiang Kai-Shek's blowing of the dikes to impede the Japanese army. On an efficiency scale, possibly the worst mass murder of all time. That kind of sheer indifference to ordinary Chinese people and their welfare was what had been the norm for generations before Mao).

Thats like saying Apartheid was good for South Africa because it brought low crime to white people, produced an electric and nuclear infrastructure and created a massive mining industry.

Sometimes the means do not justify the end result.

Perhaps I have a different moral structure that I am not prepared to accept a mass murderer as a respected leader. I dunno.. and I am suspicious of the person with the type of morality that would think that a mass murdering dictator can be a respected leader.

I guess I am lucky I have leaders like Nelson Mandela that meet my standard for respect.