What we are up against in BofM Geography

Kerry Shirts

Registered Senior Member
Linguistic Puzzles Still Unresolved
Review of Mapping the Book of Mormon: A Comprehensive Geography of Nephite America by Robert A. Pate
Reviewed By: Allen J. Christenson
Provo, Utah: FARMS, 2004. Pp. 107–12


This from Allen J. Christensen, an expert in three of the Mayan languages in the New World. Notice the important view that we *still* have no idea what the actual name of the ancient city is, but the name we have right now stems from our own era, 1936. This is the nature of the names for the cities all over Mesoamerica. WIthout knowing what their names are, and since so much was destroyed, how are we to tell *when* we have found something significant for the BofM? This is just one of the serious differences with the BofM as opposed to the Biblical names. It is just the fundamental nature of the situation that is so vastly different. We have to take into account the differences like what we read below before we can pronounce much of anything concerning either the finding, or the lack of archaeology for or against the BofM.

My own limited field of work is in the area of highland Maya languages, of which there are at least thirty-two. Each of these is really a separate language within the larger family of Maya languages—something like Spanish, French, Portuguese, and Italian, which are somewhat related based on common roots but are certainly not mutually intelligible. I work with three highland Maya languages (K'iche', Kaqchikel, and Tz'utujil). This does not, however, qualify me to work seriously in any of the other twenty-nine Maya dialects.

The ruins of Kaminaljuyú are certainly of the proper date to qualify as a Book of Mormon community, its major occupation dating from approximately 400 BC–AD 400. But the identification based on the name itself is wholly improper. Kaminaljuyú is a straightforward K'iche'-Maya language name meaning "hill of the dead." However, we do not know what the city's name was anciently. The name Kaminaljuyú was coined by a Guatemalan archaeologist and scholar, J. Antonio Villacorta C., in 1936 when the first mounds were excavated and it became obvious that the remains of a major city lay beneath them. The major mound was previously known as Quita Sombrero (Spanish for "take off the hat"), or by one of the Spanish names of the farms on which the ruins stood—Finca La Majada, Las Charcas, or La Esperanza. Although one complex text inscribed on a stone altar from ancient Kaminaljuyú has been uncovered, it is impossible at this point to read it because of the paucity of related texts and the absence of a Rosetta Stone–like key to its structure and language. It is therefore impossible to know until further texts are uncovered what the ancient inhabitants of this site called themselves or their city.
 
Kerry Shirts said:
Linguistic Puzzles Still Unresolved
Review of Mapping the Book of Mormon: A Comprehensive Geography of Nephite America by Robert A. Pate
Reviewed By: Allen J. Christenson
Provo, Utah: FARMS, 2004. Pp. 107–12


This from Allen J. Christensen, an expert in three of the Mayan languages in the New World. Notice the important view that we *still* have no idea what the actual name of the ancient city is, but the name we have right now stems from our own era, 1936.
could you put quotes around others work? is the body of this post from you or "Allen J. Christenson"? are you the one that speaks 3 Maya languages or is it Allen?
 
Kerry Shirts said:
Linguistic Puzzles Still Unresolved
Review of Mapping the Book of Mormon: A Comprehensive Geography of Nephite America by Robert A. Pate
Reviewed By: Allen J. Christenson
Provo, Utah: FARMS, 2004. Pp. 107–12


The ruins of Kaminaljuyú are certainly of the proper date to qualify as a Book of Mormon community, its major occupation dating from approximately 400 BC–AD 400. But the identification based on the name itself is wholly improper. Kaminaljuyú is a straightforward K'iche'-Maya language name meaning "hill of the dead." However, we do not know what the city's name was anciently.

Although one complex text inscribed on a stone altar from ancient Kaminaljuyú has been uncovered, it is impossible at this point to read it because of the paucity of related texts and the absence of a Rosetta Stone–like key to its structure and language. It is therefore impossible to know until further texts are uncovered what the ancient inhabitants of this site called themselves or their city.
I think several key elements would make it BoM:
1) if horse bones, implements, accruements were found there
2) if steel implements, swords, steel-making furnaces were found there
3) if non-Mesoamerican artifacts were found there
4) if Egyptian or Hebrew writing were on any of the ruins
5) if pre-1492 "old world" flora or fauna were found there in situ, as mentioned in the BoM
6) if evidence of a coinage were found there

that's a start

also, if memory serves me right, Maya is written with common glyphs, so a "Rosetta stone" would only be needed to show pronunciation diffs &/or diff concepts, or did Dr. Linda Schele's, Yuri Valentinovich Knorosov's, et al's work go to naught?
see below:
http://www.utexas.edu/opa/news/99newsreleases/nr_199903/nr_maya990302.html
http://muweb.millersville.edu/~columbus/data/art/COE-01.ART

more stuff:
http://www.civilization.ca/civil/maya/mmc04eng.html
http://www.jaguar-sun.com/calendr.html

this Allen?:
http://www.mesoweb.com/features/fabric/interview.html
Allen Christenson has had an unusually varied preparation for his work as an art historian; a journey which takes in teaching, dentistry, Maya linguistics and shamanism!

so are you Kerry Shirts or Allen Christenson?
 
No, no, I'm sorry for the confusion. It is Allen Christensen who is familiar with three Mesaomaerican lnaguages, not myself. And yes I am Kerry Shirts, not Allen Christensen. Sorry to confuse you, that's my fault. I shall put quotes around stuff next time. I am learning how to work this board, so please forgive the gaffe!
 
Kerry Shirts said:
Linguistic Puzzles Still Unresolved
Review of Mapping the Book of Mormon: A Comprehensive Geography of Nephite America by Robert A. Pate
Reviewed By: Allen J. Christenson
Provo, Utah: FARMS, 2004. Pp. 107–12
Reviewed By: Allen J. Christenson
My own limited field of work is in the area of highland Maya languages, of which there are at least thirty-two.
...
The ruins of Kaminaljuyú are certainly of the proper date to qualify as a Book of Mormon community, its major occupation dating from approximately 400 BC–AD 400. But the identification based on the name itself is wholly improper. Kaminaljuyú is a straightforward K'iche'-Maya language name meaning "hill of the dead." However, we do not know what the city's name was anciently. The name Kaminaljuyú was coined by a Guatemalan archaeologist and scholar, J. Antonio Villacorta C., in 1936 when the first mounds were excavated and it became obvious that the remains of a major city lay beneath them. The major mound was previously known as Quita Sombrero (Spanish for "take off the hat"), or by one of the Spanish names of the farms on which the ruins stood—Finca La Majada, Las Charcas, or La Esperanza. Although one complex text inscribed on a stone altar from ancient Kaminaljuyú has been uncovered, it is impossible at this point to read it because of the paucity of related texts and the absence of a Rosetta Stone–like key to its structure and language. It is therefore impossible to know until further texts are uncovered what the ancient inhabitants of this site called themselves or their city.
while the Maya glyphs may be hard to decipher without some knowledge, it would be "WORLD SHAKING" if the inhabitants were Hebrew, I'm still waiting for all those crypto-jews to stand up

this is interesting, but I need author's permission to quote, so here is the link instead:
http://www.unc.edu/~davidmm/KJUStela10.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization#Writing_and_literacy
Writing system
Main article: Maya hieroglyphics
The Maya writing system (often called hieroglyphics from a vague superficial resemblance to the Ancient Egyptian writing, to which it is not related) was a combination of phonetic symbols and logograms. It is most often classified as a logographic or (more properly) a logosyllabic writing system, in which syllabic signs play a significant role. It is the only writing system of the Pre-Columbian New World which is known to completely represent the spoken language of its community. In total, the script has more than a thousand different glyphs, although a few are variations of the same sign or meaning, and many appear only rarely or are confined to particular localities. At any one time, no more than around 500 glyphs were in use, some 200 of which (including variations) had a phonetic or syllabic interpretation.

http://www.mesoweb.com/features/fabric/interview.html
Still, none had a particular interest in the living Maya as artists, which was my principal interest in the field. I had read Linda Schele's book "Forest of Kings," which she co-wrote with David Freidel, and was very impressed by the authors' recognition that the Maya are not just an ancient people. They stressed that the Maya continue to thrive in modern society and that our knowledge of the magnificent ancient cities and monuments of the Maya region may be informed by the beliefs and practices of their living descendants.
 
Kerry Shirts, do you think this is proof that BoM people could or were here in Mayaland?
Reviewed By: Allen J. Christenson
My own limited field of work is in the area of highland Maya languages, of which there are at least thirty-two. Each of these is really a separate language within the larger family of Maya languages—something like Spanish, French, Portuguese, and Italian, which are somewhat related based on common roots but are certainly not mutually intelligible. I work with three highland Maya languages (K'iche', Kaqchikel, and Tz'utujil). This does not, however, qualify me to work seriously in any of the other twenty-nine Maya dialects.

The ruins of Kaminaljuyú are certainly of the proper date to qualify as a Book of Mormon community, its major occupation dating from approximately 400 BC–AD 400.
scroll down & read page 59 of 62 here, to see what experts think:

http://www.unc.edu/~davidmm/KJUStela10.pdf
 
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