What was the Catholic Church Thinking?
- Thread starter Woody
- Start date
Muhlenberg
Registered Senior Member
The church was infiltrated. Some protected those who harmed kids for (misguided in my opinion) charitable reasons, most however seem to have been like minded.
Check out this link:
http://www.snapnetwork.org/survivors_wisdom/Survivors_wisdom_1.htm
I'll quote a couple of excerpts:
There are many more survivors of abuse by priests, and other clergy members, than any of us wants to believe. One study from University of Chicago estimates that there are probably about 100,000 survivors of sexual abuse by Catholic priests in the U.S.
Many survivors have gone to church officials to look for help, guidance and/or healing. Many of us went to the church leaders, after building up loads of courage and strength to face them, because we wanted to make sure that our perpetrators didn’t abuse anyone else. We mistakenly thought that the church leaders would want to ensure others’ safety too and that the perpetrators would be removed from ministry. So many of us did this without ever telling anyone else. Then we found out we were wrong. The church leaders did not care about protecting others and they did not care about us. Most of us found the experience of going to church leaders just awful. The church leaders were insensitive and acted like they did not know how to respond to us. We were looking for healing and consolation but found further victimization.
They can getaway with it anywhere else in the world but not in america. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
http://www.snapnetwork.org/survivors_wisdom/Survivors_wisdom_1.htm
I'll quote a couple of excerpts:
There are many more survivors of abuse by priests, and other clergy members, than any of us wants to believe. One study from University of Chicago estimates that there are probably about 100,000 survivors of sexual abuse by Catholic priests in the U.S.
Many survivors have gone to church officials to look for help, guidance and/or healing. Many of us went to the church leaders, after building up loads of courage and strength to face them, because we wanted to make sure that our perpetrators didn’t abuse anyone else. We mistakenly thought that the church leaders would want to ensure others’ safety too and that the perpetrators would be removed from ministry. So many of us did this without ever telling anyone else. Then we found out we were wrong. The church leaders did not care about protecting others and they did not care about us. Most of us found the experience of going to church leaders just awful. The church leaders were insensitive and acted like they did not know how to respond to us. We were looking for healing and consolation but found further victimization.
They can getaway with it anywhere else in the world but not in america. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
Muhlenberg
Registered Senior Member
Don't know the extent of it. Do know the laity is furious.
An odd thing, or maybe not so odd, are often those who push the gay agenda are the same ones critizing the church. I'm not Catholic and don't know the internals of the church but it sure appears there was a concentrated, long-term effort to undermine it by encouraging homosexual priests.
An odd thing, or maybe not so odd, are often those who push the gay agenda are the same ones critizing the church. I'm not Catholic and don't know the internals of the church but it sure appears there was a concentrated, long-term effort to undermine it by encouraging homosexual priests.
Hello Muhlenberg,
The catholic church abuses have been going on for centuries and have been covered up.
In a free, democratic society like america, they can't get away with it.
In Italy, the catholic leaders can get away with anything.
America isn't unique with this problem, you just don't see the symptoms elsewhere in the world.
The catholic church abuses have been going on for centuries and have been covered up.
In a free, democratic society like america, they can't get away with it.
In Italy, the catholic leaders can get away with anything.
America isn't unique with this problem, you just don't see the symptoms elsewhere in the world.
The News:
An investigation by the state attorney general eventually concluded that about 1,000 children in the Boston Archdiocese were molested by more than 240 priests since the 1940s.
The Bible:
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. (Matthew 18:6)
Go figure the rest: A lot of Catholic Priests on the way to Hell.
An investigation by the state attorney general eventually concluded that about 1,000 children in the Boston Archdiocese were molested by more than 240 priests since the 1940s.
The Bible:
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. (Matthew 18:6)
Go figure the rest: A lot of Catholic Priests on the way to Hell.
Muh,
I think that makes sense. The criticism is about the rank hypocrisy of the church for on the one hand condemning homosexuality while at the same time large numbers of their members are homosexual. But perhaps that isn’t quite accurate since these priests have been attracted to young boys, so perhaps sexual perversion is a more appropriate description, something that cannot be said about normal healthy homosexuals.
I think that makes sense. The criticism is about the rank hypocrisy of the church for on the one hand condemning homosexuality while at the same time large numbers of their members are homosexual. But perhaps that isn’t quite accurate since these priests have been attracted to young boys, so perhaps sexual perversion is a more appropriate description, something that cannot be said about normal healthy homosexuals.
Money is the only thing that seems to get the attention of catholic leadership. When child molesting was a cheap thrill none of the catholic leadership cared about it, and it looks like some even condoned the behavior.
A civil society can not, should not, and will not tolerate the likes of these creepish demons, and I hope their house gets cleaned good-- Isn't it about time?
A civil society can not, should not, and will not tolerate the likes of these creepish demons, and I hope their house gets cleaned good-- Isn't it about time?
Hi Woody,
Hmmm,
1. When one inhibits natural human sexuality, the outcome is often perversion. Catholic Priests are required to practice celibacy. The outcome as you have demonstrated is fairly predictable.
Which leads to,
2. Do not forget that Catholicism is the original Christian denomination. What you are condemning here publicly is a distinctly Christian crime, whatever denomination you may claim. These crimes fall under the umbrella of Christianity. Christians as a whole are jointly responsible, yourself included, as you propagate this religion.
Allcare.
Hmmm,
1. When one inhibits natural human sexuality, the outcome is often perversion. Catholic Priests are required to practice celibacy. The outcome as you have demonstrated is fairly predictable.
Which leads to,
2. Do not forget that Catholicism is the original Christian denomination. What you are condemning here publicly is a distinctly Christian crime, whatever denomination you may claim. These crimes fall under the umbrella of Christianity. Christians as a whole are jointly responsible, yourself included, as you propagate this religion.
Allcare.
Woody is just being sectarian and accusing the entire Catholic Church of "guilt by association".
stretched then takes this totally beyond the pale by making a completely unjustifiable remark that the crime under discussion is "distinctly Christian".
Stop it, both of you. This is not a place of baseless hatred, of whatever religious inclination you are.
stretched then takes this totally beyond the pale by making a completely unjustifiable remark that the crime under discussion is "distinctly Christian".
Stop it, both of you. This is not a place of baseless hatred, of whatever religious inclination you are.
stretched: Hi Woody, Hmmm,
1. When one inhibits natural human sexuality, the outcome is often perversion. Catholic Priests are required to practice celibacy. The outcome as you have demonstrated is fairly predictable.
Which leads to,
2. Do not forget that Catholicism is the original Christian denomination. What you are condemning here publicly is a distinctly Christian crime, whatever denomination you may claim. These crimes fall under the umbrella of Christianity. Christians as a whole are jointly responsible, yourself included, as you propagate this religion.
Allcare.
*************
M*W: So well said! Are there any other religions known to have perverted leaders who preyed on innocent children? Christianity has been the source of the most diabolical ransom on humanity.
1. When one inhibits natural human sexuality, the outcome is often perversion. Catholic Priests are required to practice celibacy. The outcome as you have demonstrated is fairly predictable.
Which leads to,
2. Do not forget that Catholicism is the original Christian denomination. What you are condemning here publicly is a distinctly Christian crime, whatever denomination you may claim. These crimes fall under the umbrella of Christianity. Christians as a whole are jointly responsible, yourself included, as you propagate this religion.
Allcare.
*************
M*W: So well said! Are there any other religions known to have perverted leaders who preyed on innocent children? Christianity has been the source of the most diabolical ransom on humanity.
Silas said,
I am saying that church leadership is not above the law, and it is about time the corruption was judged. I hate the corruption. The pope is no better than anybody else and yet he thinks he is the vicar of christ, trying to take a monopoly for himself. This unchristian doctrine, as well as many others, I find very disturbing, including penance, buying relatives out of hell, the confessional booths (a way of controlling people), etc., go down the list -- this is not christianity.
I am saying that church leadership is not above the law, and it is about time the corruption was judged. I hate the corruption. The pope is no better than anybody else and yet he thinks he is the vicar of christ, trying to take a monopoly for himself. This unchristian doctrine, as well as many others, I find very disturbing, including penance, buying relatives out of hell, the confessional booths (a way of controlling people), etc., go down the list -- this is not christianity.
Don't blame Queers for child abuse in your Church. there are as many, if not more heterosexual child molesters. many of the cases being with their own children!
Concentrating on the latter problem, obviously it is to do with your religion's attitude to sexuality. you fear it, want it to stop, and want to escape it, right? so what that does is it INCREASES the allure of it! it asks men to suppress one of The most vital urges--sexuality, and then puts same men in charge of children. ASKIN for it
of course the victims are gonna get hard faced embarrassed reactions from the officals. for the very institution they are involved with is reponsible. you get the same reaction for officaldom about school bullying. again it is due to the very institution that breeds it
the Answer IS...DONT HAVE YOUR CHILD INVOLVED WITH EITHER OF THOSE IGNORANT INSITUTIONS. but not many people are bold enough to do that.....so
Concentrating on the latter problem, obviously it is to do with your religion's attitude to sexuality. you fear it, want it to stop, and want to escape it, right? so what that does is it INCREASES the allure of it! it asks men to suppress one of The most vital urges--sexuality, and then puts same men in charge of children. ASKIN for it
of course the victims are gonna get hard faced embarrassed reactions from the officals. for the very institution they are involved with is reponsible. you get the same reaction for officaldom about school bullying. again it is due to the very institution that breeds it
the Answer IS...DONT HAVE YOUR CHILD INVOLVED WITH EITHER OF THOSE IGNORANT INSITUTIONS. but not many people are bold enough to do that.....so
Woody: I am saying that church leadership is not above the law, and it is about time the corruption was judged. I hate the corruption.
*************
M*W: Corruption is rampant, and have no fear, christianity IS being judged right off the face of the earth.
*************
Woody: The pope is no better than anybody else and yet he thinks he is the vicar of christ, trying to take a monopoly for himself.
*************
M*W: True, the pope is human like anybody else, but his position is called "the Vicar of Christ" whether you like it or not. It's a job for god's sake! He's seen the corruption of christianity, and he is aware of the evils going on right in his domain, but he knows he cannot right the wrongs of 2000 years of corruption and vile perversion in this lifetime. At least pope JPII, as part of his ministry, has apologized to the world for some of many atrocities that has plagued humanity under the diabolical heading of christianity.
*************
Woody: This unchristian doctrine, as well as many others, I find very disturbing, including penance, buying relatives out of hell, the confessional booths (a way of controlling people), etc., go down the list -- this is not christianity.
*************
M*W: Since you're NOT a catholic christian, why do these things bother you? I am an ex-catholic, but these were not any part of the reasons I disowned christianity. Yes, these are controlling devices. They were instituted as a means of ritual observances to brainwash and control the masses. But, even still, these little rituals have no meaning in the greater scheme of things. They are not as 'evil' as the lies christianity has been propagating for 2000 years! The lies, deceit and bloody murder that christianity has inflicted on the world is finally coming to light. Thanks to online forums like this one, the truth is being spread more quickly, and christianity will finally die -- I believe in this generation -- well, at least, this is what I am praying for!
*************
M*W: Corruption is rampant, and have no fear, christianity IS being judged right off the face of the earth.
*************
Woody: The pope is no better than anybody else and yet he thinks he is the vicar of christ, trying to take a monopoly for himself.
*************
M*W: True, the pope is human like anybody else, but his position is called "the Vicar of Christ" whether you like it or not. It's a job for god's sake! He's seen the corruption of christianity, and he is aware of the evils going on right in his domain, but he knows he cannot right the wrongs of 2000 years of corruption and vile perversion in this lifetime. At least pope JPII, as part of his ministry, has apologized to the world for some of many atrocities that has plagued humanity under the diabolical heading of christianity.
*************
Woody: This unchristian doctrine, as well as many others, I find very disturbing, including penance, buying relatives out of hell, the confessional booths (a way of controlling people), etc., go down the list -- this is not christianity.
*************
M*W: Since you're NOT a catholic christian, why do these things bother you? I am an ex-catholic, but these were not any part of the reasons I disowned christianity. Yes, these are controlling devices. They were instituted as a means of ritual observances to brainwash and control the masses. But, even still, these little rituals have no meaning in the greater scheme of things. They are not as 'evil' as the lies christianity has been propagating for 2000 years! The lies, deceit and bloody murder that christianity has inflicted on the world is finally coming to light. Thanks to online forums like this one, the truth is being spread more quickly, and christianity will finally die -- I believe in this generation -- well, at least, this is what I am praying for!
Silas,
Quote Silas:
"Stop it, both of you. This is not a place of baseless hatred, of whatever religious inclination you are."
Upon scrutiny this hatred is not baseless, however you are confusing honest opinion with hatred. I admire Woody for condemming the predatory priestly practises, but he will inevitably be tarred by his own brush. If you would care to look deeper, you will find that Christianity propogates violence and abuse wherever it rears its head. President Bush is just the latest in a long line of Christian fanatics using the shield of religion as an excuse to perpetrate his agenda. And Christian America is right behind him.
A short list of Christian "love",
"In 1122 Christian crusaders swept over Jerusalem and slaughtered men, women and children, 'until their horses were knee deep in blood. We then went to the church to thank the Lord for his mercy."
"In 777 , Charlemagne, a devout Christian, after conquering the Saxon rebels, gave them a choice between baptism and execution. When they refused to convert, he had 4500 of them beheaded in one morning."
" Queen Isabella, famous for sending Columbus to the New World in 1492, was well known also for her 'Spanish Inquisition', the gruesome torture and murder of tens of thousands of Spanish Jews, Muslims, homosexuals, people who read or wrote, uppity women, and anyone else not up to the Queen's strict standards. Isabella was a champion of the faith, piously congratulating herself as her victims writhed to their deaths in the flames and the many other ingenious methods of torture invented by her inquisitors."
"In the 12th and 13th centuries, the Inquisition was born, with Christians killing Christians, during what was known as the Albigensian heresies. Hundreds of thousands of people died because their Christianity did not agree with official dogma. This adds to the irony of murder in the name of Christ, when the majority of victims of the early inquisitions were themselves Christians."
"English Catholics suffered horribly under Protestant regimes. American historian William T. Walsh writes: "In Britain, 30,000 went to the stake for witchcraft; in Protestant Germany, the figure was 100,000" (, p. 275). In Scotland, too, alleged witches were cruelly put to death. Karl Keating quotes from the : "It is well-known that belief in the justice of punishing heresy with death was so common among the 16th-century Reformers-Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and their adherents-that we may say their toleration began where their power ended"
(http://www.borndigital.com/tinq.htm)
Allcare.
Quote Silas:
"Stop it, both of you. This is not a place of baseless hatred, of whatever religious inclination you are."
Upon scrutiny this hatred is not baseless, however you are confusing honest opinion with hatred. I admire Woody for condemming the predatory priestly practises, but he will inevitably be tarred by his own brush. If you would care to look deeper, you will find that Christianity propogates violence and abuse wherever it rears its head. President Bush is just the latest in a long line of Christian fanatics using the shield of religion as an excuse to perpetrate his agenda. And Christian America is right behind him.
A short list of Christian "love",
"In 1122 Christian crusaders swept over Jerusalem and slaughtered men, women and children, 'until their horses were knee deep in blood. We then went to the church to thank the Lord for his mercy."
"In 777 , Charlemagne, a devout Christian, after conquering the Saxon rebels, gave them a choice between baptism and execution. When they refused to convert, he had 4500 of them beheaded in one morning."
" Queen Isabella, famous for sending Columbus to the New World in 1492, was well known also for her 'Spanish Inquisition', the gruesome torture and murder of tens of thousands of Spanish Jews, Muslims, homosexuals, people who read or wrote, uppity women, and anyone else not up to the Queen's strict standards. Isabella was a champion of the faith, piously congratulating herself as her victims writhed to their deaths in the flames and the many other ingenious methods of torture invented by her inquisitors."
"In the 12th and 13th centuries, the Inquisition was born, with Christians killing Christians, during what was known as the Albigensian heresies. Hundreds of thousands of people died because their Christianity did not agree with official dogma. This adds to the irony of murder in the name of Christ, when the majority of victims of the early inquisitions were themselves Christians."
"English Catholics suffered horribly under Protestant regimes. American historian William T. Walsh writes: "In Britain, 30,000 went to the stake for witchcraft; in Protestant Germany, the figure was 100,000" (, p. 275). In Scotland, too, alleged witches were cruelly put to death. Karl Keating quotes from the : "It is well-known that belief in the justice of punishing heresy with death was so common among the 16th-century Reformers-Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and their adherents-that we may say their toleration began where their power ended"
(http://www.borndigital.com/tinq.htm)
Allcare.
You mean "cue", Athelwulf.
As to the specific charges of priest paedophilia, of course the priests involved should have been turned over to the authorities, but even if a moral case could be made for them not to be actually exposed and prosecuted (for example if it was found out from the victims under the seal of the confessional - ie the victim confessed the crime in order that something might be done about it, but did not want to go through the trauma of a court case) it was certainly handled in the very worst way by the Church authorities - moving priests to a different parish where they could re-offend instead of into a position (to a closed order monastery, for instance) where they could not. Those bishops are as culpable as the perpertrators, in my view.
I believe that the exposure of this horrendously extensive practice may well force the Church to re-think what it is asking of its clergy with enforced celibacy, which after all has no Biblical authority whatsoever. I'm quite sure that most of the priests involved are not actual paedophiles, in that if there had been another outlet for their sexual energies, they would have taken it. (In rural Ireland it is rumoured that most priests routinely sleep with their housekeepers).
This is Christianity - a rather important sect of Christianity. As MedicineWoman pointed out, there isn't really any point in your being "disturbed" by the continued existence of the oldest Christian sect. Check your history, this was all covered during the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries and was known as the Reformation. Yes, the Pope "thinks he's the vicar of Christ" - it's part of his doctrine. Not believing that the Pope is the vicar of Christ is part of your doctrine.Woody said:
As to the specific charges of priest paedophilia, of course the priests involved should have been turned over to the authorities, but even if a moral case could be made for them not to be actually exposed and prosecuted (for example if it was found out from the victims under the seal of the confessional - ie the victim confessed the crime in order that something might be done about it, but did not want to go through the trauma of a court case) it was certainly handled in the very worst way by the Church authorities - moving priests to a different parish where they could re-offend instead of into a position (to a closed order monastery, for instance) where they could not. Those bishops are as culpable as the perpertrators, in my view.
I believe that the exposure of this horrendously extensive practice may well force the Church to re-think what it is asking of its clergy with enforced celibacy, which after all has no Biblical authority whatsoever. I'm quite sure that most of the priests involved are not actual paedophiles, in that if there had been another outlet for their sexual energies, they would have taken it. (In rural Ireland it is rumoured that most priests routinely sleep with their housekeepers).
Silas said,
The pope is not the vicar according to bible doctrine:
1st Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
The catholic church forbids priests from marrying.
The bible says priests must be married according to 1st Timothy 3:
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5
(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
The catolic church says the "house" mentioned in vs. 4 is the church, and the children are the church body, but that explanation makes no sense at all when you look at verse 5.
The pope prays to the Virgin Mary, have you ever read the Pope's prayers? They are in hardback at the bookstore.
The bible says: Colossians 2:
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels
The Virgin Mary was a fine woman, no doubt, but the catholic church has made her equal to God.
The catholic church claims Peter is the Rock of our salvation.
The bible says in 1st Corinthians 4:
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Silas, I was a scholar in my modern european history class, it was one of my better subjects. I went to a secular school. In my history course, we were taught that the early catholic church did not allow people to read the bible. I had catholics sitting in the class with me, and one of my classmates is now my brother's brother-in-law. They squirmed through the inquisition and the other catholic church atrocities, but nobody trashed them for what they believe.
How about the pope that was exhumed and dragged through the streets of Rome for all the terrible things he did -- was that Sixtus the Twelth? I forget because there were so many of these self-appointed vicars.
The pope is not the vicar according to bible doctrine:
1st Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
The catholic church forbids priests from marrying.
The bible says priests must be married according to 1st Timothy 3:
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5
(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
The catolic church says the "house" mentioned in vs. 4 is the church, and the children are the church body, but that explanation makes no sense at all when you look at verse 5.
The pope prays to the Virgin Mary, have you ever read the Pope's prayers? They are in hardback at the bookstore.
The bible says: Colossians 2:
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels
The Virgin Mary was a fine woman, no doubt, but the catholic church has made her equal to God.
The catholic church claims Peter is the Rock of our salvation.
The bible says in 1st Corinthians 4:
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Silas, I was a scholar in my modern european history class, it was one of my better subjects. I went to a secular school. In my history course, we were taught that the early catholic church did not allow people to read the bible. I had catholics sitting in the class with me, and one of my classmates is now my brother's brother-in-law. They squirmed through the inquisition and the other catholic church atrocities, but nobody trashed them for what they believe.
How about the pope that was exhumed and dragged through the streets of Rome for all the terrible things he did -- was that Sixtus the Twelth? I forget because there were so many of these self-appointed vicars.
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Leo Volont
Registered Senior Member
As a Catholic I would subscribe to the Conspiracy Theory that the American Bishops are largely infiltrated by the Free Masons and have purposefully sabotaged The Church.
The Vatican really should have intervened, but the problem arises that since the rise of nationalism and the global defeat of the Catholic Church in the Wars of the Reformation, the day to day defacto Constitution of the Catholic Church gives the Bishops almost a complete autonomy in their own Dioceses. However, these incidents certainly point out the weakness of this decentralization. Also the financial isolation and independence of each Diocese has proven to be a blessing and a curse -- a blessing in that the liabilities are limited, but a curse in that some dioceses are completely ruined with no possibility that help can be infused from the outside.
Also, it should be mentioned that the Pedophile Priests and the Bishops are not the only ones to blame. So were the young people who must have certainly have known that they were doing wrong to party without their clothes on. If everyone bothers to think back to their own childhood they must certainly arrive at the conclusion that they would not have been so easily seduced, and that any child who would participate in such degradation could be supposed to simply be naturally inclined to that kind of behavior. Afterall, nobody suddenly in a flash one day becomes a moral adult after having been a totally thoughtless and morally neutral child. Have we not all seen that we can discern how the adult will turn out from the child we observe. Some children are simply bad. The Pedophiles seduce nobody. They simply observe and invite the morally corrupt and the lewd among the children they encounter. They know which ones want to 'party'. And the children themselves know that they wanted to party. It is simply indicative of the same Moral Corruption that runs so deep within them that years after having had sex, they now want the Church to pay them for it. I hope that they are proud that they have so deliberately and thoroughly defined themselves as prostitutes... first having sex and then demanding payment. In the Hell next to the Bishops and the Pedophiles should certainly be herded these moral degenerates who would bankrupt The Church so that they could get rich from what any decent person would have been ashamed of.
The Vatican really should have intervened, but the problem arises that since the rise of nationalism and the global defeat of the Catholic Church in the Wars of the Reformation, the day to day defacto Constitution of the Catholic Church gives the Bishops almost a complete autonomy in their own Dioceses. However, these incidents certainly point out the weakness of this decentralization. Also the financial isolation and independence of each Diocese has proven to be a blessing and a curse -- a blessing in that the liabilities are limited, but a curse in that some dioceses are completely ruined with no possibility that help can be infused from the outside.
Also, it should be mentioned that the Pedophile Priests and the Bishops are not the only ones to blame. So were the young people who must have certainly have known that they were doing wrong to party without their clothes on. If everyone bothers to think back to their own childhood they must certainly arrive at the conclusion that they would not have been so easily seduced, and that any child who would participate in such degradation could be supposed to simply be naturally inclined to that kind of behavior. Afterall, nobody suddenly in a flash one day becomes a moral adult after having been a totally thoughtless and morally neutral child. Have we not all seen that we can discern how the adult will turn out from the child we observe. Some children are simply bad. The Pedophiles seduce nobody. They simply observe and invite the morally corrupt and the lewd among the children they encounter. They know which ones want to 'party'. And the children themselves know that they wanted to party. It is simply indicative of the same Moral Corruption that runs so deep within them that years after having had sex, they now want the Church to pay them for it. I hope that they are proud that they have so deliberately and thoroughly defined themselves as prostitutes... first having sex and then demanding payment. In the Hell next to the Bishops and the Pedophiles should certainly be herded these moral degenerates who would bankrupt The Church so that they could get rich from what any decent person would have been ashamed of.