What The Flock Are We Doing In Iraq?

[Kaiduorkhon]

What The Flock Are We Doing In Iraq?
(Blaming Veterans for Executive Policy)

As of 11/6/09, the Army psychiatrist, Nidal Malik Hason, has not only killed and wounded dozens of people at Fort Hood, Texas Army Base, he has cast another ominous shadow on what was already - since 9/11 - a very controversial issue; reintroducing fragile questions, including religious undertones - as they relate to (well intended and otherwise motivated) Muslims in America, and activating questions regarding America's motive(s) for armed presence in the Middle East.

Very unfortunately, this appears to be a pejorative problem, for which there is no easy solution. Vets and apolitical citizens are being blamed - and are suffering and dying for - questionable executive policy. The unreliably reported lessons of Vietnam, and the failed - eight year - Russian Expedition into Afghanistan enter this foreboding incumbency. Constitutionally fortified issues of Free Speech are being compromised - displaced with citizen fear of government (and qualified elements of the 'Homeland Security' and 'Patriot' acts: which nullify the former requirement for a judge's order to tap telephones, and void 'due cause' for satellite reconnaissance directed upon law abiding citizens. Rogue gvt. did obtain these constitutional transgressions by way of the occurrence of the World Trade Center attacks ).

Excersizing fundamental American Principles of Free Speech has evolved into grounds for suspicion of 'terrorism'. The cost and consequences of American Armed Forces in the Middle East is escalating on many fronts which are a challenge to American Constitutional mainstays and domestic tranquility.

Caveat: America cannot be conquered from the outside, but, she can - and may - be compromised from within.

I very sincerely hope I am wrong about this, but, I think we are far from seeing the resolve of this convuluted dilemma. I am an American born veteran, sworn to defend the Constitution of the United States from all her enemies, be they foreign or domestic, whomsoever. Incidentally, I wish to emphasize here, that I consider violent revolution to be counter revolutionary. I believe that the - overdue - revolution should, and will, occur, on a platform of liberated - and responsible - communication.

"Beware, the military-industrial complex, lest they lead you into war for profit". - Dwight David Eisenhower. Supreme Comdr. of Allied Forces; President of the United States.
- Kai

 

[Baron Max]

What The Flock Are We Doing In Iraq? ...
.... I am an American born veteran, sworn to defend the Constitution of the United States from all her enemies, be they foreign or domestic, whomsoever. Incidentally, I wish to emphasize here, that I consider violent revolution to be counter revolutionary. I believe that the - overdue - revolution should, and will, occur, on a platform of liberated - and responsible - communication.

"...liberated - and responsible - communication"? Where have you been for the last umpty-eleven years? The war has been going on since ....forever... and it's been funded by vote in the legislative branch of the USA every single year of that war. The people of the USA have elected those officials who voted to continue the war and the military has just been following the orders of the president.

How would you like that to change? ...for elected officials to go against the people who voted for them? ...and have the elected representative do whatever THEY want regardless of what the voters want? ...like what's going on now with the healthcare issue?

If you're sworn to defend the Constitution, then you should be in agreement about the way the war has been approved by congress, funded by congress, and has been going on for all this time. YOUR government has been working just exactly like it was designed ...why aren't you happy?

Baron Max

 

[Kaiduorkhon]

"...liberated - and responsible - communication"? Where have you been for the last umpty-eleven years? The war has been going on since ....forever... and it's been funded by vote in the legislative branch of the USA every single year of that war. The people of the USA have elected those officials who voted to continue the war and the military has just been following the orders of the president.

How would you like that to change? ...for elected officials to go against the people who voted for them? ...and have the elected representative do whatever THEY want regardless of what the voters want? ...like what's going on now with the healthcare issue?

If you're sworn to defend the Constitution, then you should be in agreement about the way the war has been approved by congress, funded by congress, and has been going on for all this time. YOUR government has been working just exactly like it was designed ...why aren't you happy?

Baron Max

Your points are well taken, Max.
Likely you've heard it before - with exceptions granted where found, we have the best representatives in congress and the senate, that money can buy.

We've all witnessed the dissolution of Democracy on many fronts, some of them in particular - like the assassinations of JFK and RFK without tenable resolution, and the Gallop poll's findings that 65% or more of the American people were opposed to the Vietnam war: in 1967. It ended catstrophically in 1975 (the 'honorable withdrawal').

The Corporate State ('big business') owns the Democratic system at its highest levels (No news here). The compromise of the Constitution - and tolerance threshhold expansion - continues. The more that is compromised = the more that is compromised: squared.

 

[Baron Max]

We've all witnessed the dissolution of Democracy on many fronts, some of them in particular - like the assassinations of JFK and RFK without tenable resolution, ...

What the hell does that mean? "Tenable resolution,..."??? I think it was resolved quite adequately ...both of the men were killled. Damned hard to get more "resolved" than that!!

I fail to understand your point here. The assassinations didn't seem to mean much in the long run of politics. Nothing changed in American politics ...except two politicians were killed. Explain your comment.

We've all witnessed the dissolution of Democracy on many fronts, some of them in particular - ..., and the Gallop poll's findings that 65% or more of the American people were opposed to the Vietnam war: in 1967. It ended catstrophically in 1975.

Well, again you fail to realize that the Vietnam War went on for over ten years, with USA involvement in Southeast Asia since before World War II. See? Isn't that a lot of elections, a lot of opportunities, for the voters to make their feelings known?

And yet the war continued, didn't it. Which means, to me, that the polls, as usual, were slanted to the liberal side. The ones who yelled, or protested the loudest got the most air time, making it "seem" what it wasn't. It did not mean that "the people" opposed the war. If they had, they'd have voted that way ....and they didn't - for over ten years!

Likely you've heard it before - with exceptions granted where found, we have the best representatives in congress and the senate, that money can buy.

Well, people like to say that, yet every election, time after time, some of the same old politicians get re-elected. See? Why don't we just admit that, while it's popular to bitch n' moan, the American people continue to re-elect politicians that they've spent years complaining about.

See? I keep thinking that there's a few people/voters who like to bitch a lot, but the greater majority of voters seem to like things just like they are. So how can we keep complaining ...it seems to be the way the system was designed, and it seems to be working ....whether you or I agree with the policies or not.

I'm reminded of a friend of mine ages ago who complained about the wheat bread that we were eating. I asked him why he keep buying if he doesn't like it. His reply was ....it's a habit. See? You're complaining (habit?) about the politics, yet you fail to see that it just might be going where the voters want it to go ....you just don't happen to agree.

The Corporate State ('big business') owns the Democratic system at its highest levels (No news here). ...

See? I keep thinking that there's a few people/voters who like to bitch a lot, but the greater majority of voters seem to like things just like they are. So how can we keep complaining ...it seems to be the way the system was designed, and it seems to be working ....whether you or I agree with the policies or not.

Baron Max

 

[Kaiduorkhon]

“ Originally Posted by Kaiduorkhon
We've all witnessed the dissolution of Democracy on many fronts, some of them in particular - like the assassinations of JFK and RFK without tenable resolution, ... ”

Max:
What the hell does that mean? "Tenable resolution,..."??? I think it was resolved quite adequately ...both of the men were killled. Damned hard to get more "resolved" than that!!

I fail to understand your point here. The assassinations didn't seem to mean much in the long run of politics. Nothing changed in American politics ...except two politicians were killed. Explain your comment.

Kai:
The Vietnam War may not have happened as it did, if either or both JFK or RFK had been in office - particularly RFK, who ran on a platform of ending the war... Also, as a senator, JFK is on record as having the Vietnamese people attend to their own affairs, regarding 'autonomy'.


“ Originally Posted by Kaiduorkhon
We've all witnessed the dissolution of Democracy on many fronts, some of them in particular - ..., and the Gallop poll's findings that 65% or more of the American people were opposed to the Vietnam war: in 1967. It ended catstrophically in 1975. ”

Max:
Well, again you fail to realize that the Vietnam War went on for over ten years, with USA involvement in Southeast Asia since before World War II. See? Isn't that a lot of elections, a lot of opportunities, for the voters to make their feelings known?

Kai:
The American people by and large were only vaguely familiar with the situation in SE Asia during the Truman and Eisenhower eras. About 1965, when we committed a lot of troops to duty there, the awareness raised dramatically.


Max:
And yet the war continued, didn't it. Which means, to me, that the polls, as usual, were slanted to the liberal side. The ones who yelled, or protested the loudest got the most air time, making it "seem" what it wasn't. It did not mean that "the people" opposed the war. If they had, they'd have voted that way ....and they didn't - for over ten years!

Kai:
RFK's platform of withdrawing from Vietnam was very well established in '68. That's why he was murdered. He was about to end the war.



“ Originally Posted by Kaiduorkhon
Likely you've heard it before - with exceptions granted where found, we have the best representatives in congress and the senate, that money can buy. ”

Max:
Well, people like to say that, yet every election, time after time, some of the same old politicians get re-elected. See? Why don't we just admit that, while it's popular to bitch n' moan, the American people continue to re-elect politicians that they've spent years complaining about.

Kai:
It may be that Dwight D. Eisenhower was the last honest politician to hold the presidential office. Though neither of the two Kennedy's were leaning in favor of the war in Vietnam. History may indeed have been much different for that reason alone, had they not been assassinated.


See? I keep thinking that there's a few people/voters who like to bitch a lot, but the greater majority of voters seem to like things just like they are. So how can we keep complaining ...it seems to be the way the system was designed, and it seems to be working ....whether you or I agree with the policies or not.

I'm reminded of a friend of mine ages ago who complained about the wheat bread that we were eating. I asked him why he keep buying if he doesn't like it. His reply was ....it's a habit. See? You're complaining (habit?) about the politics, yet you fail to see that it just might be going where the voters want it to go ....you just don't happen to agree.

Kai:
Point taken, Max. Whereas, you may think it a little doubtful, I seriously wonder if what the voting polls mean anymore, I mean, if the real results aren't being tampered with... Hi tech counting and all that. Makes it real easy to alter the true results. Is there really a Democracy anymore?


“ Originally Posted by Kaiduorkhon
The Corporate State ('big business') owns the Democratic system at its highest levels (No news here). ... ”

Max:
See? I keep thinking that there's a few people/voters who like to bitch a lot, but the greater majority of voters seem to like things just like they are. So how can we keep complaining ...it seems to be the way the system was designed, and it seems to be working ....whether you or I agree with the policies or not.

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

The Vietnam War may not have happened as it did, if either or both JFK or RFK had been in office - particularly RFK, who ran on a platform of ending the war... Also, as a senator, JFK is on record as having the Vietnamese people attend to their own affairs, regarding 'autonomy'.

And maybe not. You have no crystal ball for predicting the future or what MIGHT HAVE BEEN. So this "reason" is useless for the purposes of this discussion.

I would also remind you that Obama ran a campaign on ending the war in Iraq and changing how Washington does politics. He hasn't done either, and the second one is proofing impossible for him ...impossible to the point of him giving up bi-partisan nice-guy stuff and going at it like a bull .....just like the old days of Washington politics. Remember his comments about "pork $$" in bills that he wasn't going to sign?

The American people by and large were only vaguely familiar with the situation in SE Asia during the Truman and Eisenhower eras. About 1965, when we committed a lot of troops to duty there, the awareness raised dramatically.

Agreed that the people didn't know much early. But since 1962-1965 or so, the war continued for 10 more long years or more with lots of dead soldiers and little to show for it. The protestors yelled and marched. And yet the American voters continued to elect gov officials who continued to fund the war effort ....for ten more years!

RFK's platform of withdrawing from Vietnam was very well established in '68. That's why he was murdered. He was about to end the war.

That's why he was murdered? How can you know that? No one knows that. It's pure conjecture on your part. Your crystal ball again?

However, regardless, even with a campaign platform, he might have done just what Obama is doing right now with Afghanistan. See? You can't know, you can only guess or make educated suppositions.

It may be that Dwight D. Eisenhower was the last honest politician to hold the presidential office. ...

I might agree with you there. It's hard to tell, actually, how honest he was because he really didn't do all that much in terms of controversial issues.

Point taken, Max. Whereas, you may think it a little doubtful, I seriously wonder if what the voting polls mean anymore, I mean, if the real results aren't being tampered with... Hi tech counting and all that. Makes it real easy to alter the true results. Is there really a Democracy anymore?

Polling is big business these days. Lots of money at stake. If a "liberal" client comes to them with a project, do you seriously think that the pollsters will give them what they DON'T want to hear? They'd never see that client again ...nor any more of his money.

NBC News was obviously rooting for Obama during the campaign ....and all of their polls, always, continuously, showed Obama doing great ...and everyone loving him! Hey, if a pollster gave NBC a real poll that showed Obama having a hard time, do you think NBC would have used that pollster again?

Oh, and why do you think most media groups have their own pollsters now??? Makes you wonder about polling reports, don't it?

Hey, I'm an old fart, retired and living happily and contentedly. In my younger days, I was somewhat politically active and "thought" I knew what was going on in the world. Now? ....LOL! Now it's a joke for anyone to even think that they know what's going on in the world. It's just too large, too interconnected. If a fly farts in Mexico, it causes a suicide attack in Pakistan!

Baron Max

 

[Thoreau]

What The Flock Are We Doing In Iraq?

As someone who's deployed there twice, the answer is: Just trying to stay alive. Seriously, we had our missions (patrols, security, convoy's etc), but at the end of the day it all equates to this... "Lets go out, wait for someone to shoot at us. That means they're the bad guys. Then we will shoot back and hope our side makes it out alive."

This shit is going to continue for as long as we are there. Imagine a country invading America. Can you possibly imagine the relentless terror that even our ordinary citizens would unleash on the invading army?

 

[Kaiduorkhon]

As someone who's deployed there twice, the answer is: Just trying to stay alive. Seriously, we had our missions (patrols, security, convoy's etc), but at the end of the day it all equates to this... "Lets go out, wait for someone to shoot at us. That means they're the bad guys. Then we will shoot back and hope our side makes it out alive."

This shit is going to continue for as long as we are there. Imagine a country invading America. Can you possibly imagine the relentless terror that even our ordinary citizens would unleash on the invading army?

Thank you for your service, MZ, and your provision of what it's like from someone who's literally been there and done that. It is noteworthy that in my own experience I have yet to encounter one regular ordinary citizen, including military memberships and their families and friends, who agrees with the 'Police Action' in Iraq. Yet it goes on, and, as you say, it will continue for as long as we are there.

Moreover, you certainly do clarify that Iraq has indeed been invaded, by the United States - 'Operation Free Iraq', is it? Orwell's Ministry of Truth couldn't have said it better. Sure would be nice if it was like the Persian Gulf, where we went in, completed our mission, and got out.
(Notably leaving Hussein intact...)

Not so this time, though...

Bin Laden - until further notice - has vanished. Hussein has been duely executed for war crimes. Yet we continue our sojourn in Iraq, the line of suicide bombers, just grows longer. 'Everyone' is entitled to their own opinion', and it is my opinion that we're there to install a military presence in the Middle East, in order for the U.S. corporate state to control petroleum and other resources.

Some people insist on calling this 'politics', but to people such as yourself, it is about living or perishing or being mutilated for life. Moreover, what you have experienced will inevitably effect you for a life time.

In summary, IMHO, it is very much like Vietnam, in the sense that it will (obviously) not end until we withdraw.

Your point about how ordinary American citizens would respond to an armed military invasion of this country is certainly 'cause for pause', and yet still, the 'police action' continues...

- Kai

 

[spidergoat]

There are plenty of potential native victims of Islamic terrorism in Iraq. It will not end when we leave, and it might get worse. I understand the Iraqis are using useless bomb detectors, that's something we could help them with, even if we are in the process of conditional withdrawl.

 

[Kaiduorkhon]

There are plenty of potential native victims of Islamic terrorism in Iraq. It will not end when we leave, and it might get worse. I understand the Iraqis are using useless bomb detectors, that's something we could help them with, even if we are in the process of conditional withdrawl.

A well made point about the terrorism not ending for the native Iraquis, at the will of Islamic terrorism; even after our withdrawal. On the other hand it is not our place to intrude on activities inside the boundaries of a sovereign state. The conflict between the Sheite and Sunnite Muslims is nearly as old as the Quran. Iran and Iraq - recently - made extensive war on each other over several issues, including conflicting 'interpretations' of the Quran/Koran. The issue at particular point in this case is non intervention by the United States.

 

[spidergoat]

We aren't intruding against their will, Iraq can kick us out at any time.

 

[Kaiduorkhon]

We aren't intruding against their will, Iraq can kick us out at any time.

That's news to a lot of people including Truly Yours, spidergoat. Thank you.

 

[S.A.M.]

As someone who's deployed there twice, the answer is: Just trying to stay alive. Seriously, we had our missions (patrols, security, convoy's etc), but at the end of the day it all equates to this... "Lets go out, wait for someone to shoot at us. That means they're the bad guys. Then we will shoot back and hope our side makes it out alive."

This shit is going to continue for as long as we are there. Imagine a country invading America. Can you possibly imagine the relentless terror that even our ordinary citizens would unleash on the invading army?

Do you have to go back?

 

[Syzygys]

We aren't intruding against their will, Iraq can kick us out at any time.

....and then you woke up....

 

[Thoreau]

There are plenty of potential native victims of Islamic terrorism in Iraq. It will not end when we leave, and it might get worse. I understand the Iraqis are using useless bomb detectors, that's something we could help them with, even if we are in the process of conditional withdrawl.

I'm not talking about ending crime altogether. I'm talking about minimizing the violence mainly toward US troops. It's not duty or business to go to all ends to make sure that they don't kill themselves. That would be equivelant to saying that Canada would come down and say:

"Hey you guys, whats this all aboot? Well, we're staying here until you guys stop all the race and drug crimes, dontcha know."

We aren't intruding against their will, Iraq can kick us out at any time.

Against who's will? The governments (who was put in place by us) or the peoples?

Do you have to go back?

As of now, no. Odds are I will within the next year, but who knows. I just signed up for yet another 4 years but I'm doing the Reserves this time around instead of active duty.