Sure even if you believe in god we still sin. Jesus was supposed to have died for our sins. So why repent? Our sins were taken care of when he died on the cross for us. What good was jesus dying for our sins if we still have to ask for forgiveness through repentance? This, like god coming down to earth as jesus, is another example of redundancy to me. And what would happen if you died before you had a chance to repent for all the sins that you had committed recently? Are they automatically forgiven in heaven?
what is the purpose of repentance?
- Thread starter mario
- Start date
mario said:
You have to repent as an act of admitting that you have sinned.
That is, you have to repent as an act of admitting that you have sinned, if you so choose believe in God.
Jesus, by his death, provided *room* in which you could act on your free will. If your sins were automatically forgiven by Jesus's death, then *you* would have no choice in the whole thing. But now, you can choose to repent, or not. Just as you can choose to believe in God, or not.
ellion said:
He payed for our sins. Whether we choose to acknowledge this (that his death means paying for our sins), is another matter though.
If you go for the explanation that Jesus' death automatically granted us all forgiveness for our sins, then we are taken out of the "equation", as if we had no free will, and are merely puppets in God's plan.
Voodoo Child
Registered Senior Member
Repentence is one of the products that christianity sells. In return for the influence that comes from being needed religion will provide an antacid for the heartburn of conscience, both before and after you sin. Humans can't swallow such tripe unless it is done at the level of community.
Jesus died for you so that you'd feel the obligations of reciprocity. Officially, it balanced the books so heaven avoids an audit by the accountants of sin. It was payment for the sins under the old covenant. Of course, the person who invented and policed the accounting scheme was God in the first place. However, God couldn't look the other way without violating his nature. This leads to a very interesting observation. Given that it was in God's nature to create inherently sinful people, given it was in his nature to formulate the first covenant and given that he would feel compelled to sacrifice himself, the logical conclusion is that God is inherently self-destructive. Self-harm being a mental disorder, of course. Another point of contention is that this is a half-assed sacrifice. He only endured a few hours of torment, whereas the price of sin is hell and devils raping you with pitchforks, etc, etc. If he is truly settling the score, then he should be in hell.
Jesus died for you so that you'd feel the obligations of reciprocity. Officially, it balanced the books so heaven avoids an audit by the accountants of sin. It was payment for the sins under the old covenant. Of course, the person who invented and policed the accounting scheme was God in the first place. However, God couldn't look the other way without violating his nature. This leads to a very interesting observation. Given that it was in God's nature to create inherently sinful people, given it was in his nature to formulate the first covenant and given that he would feel compelled to sacrifice himself, the logical conclusion is that God is inherently self-destructive. Self-harm being a mental disorder, of course. Another point of contention is that this is a half-assed sacrifice. He only endured a few hours of torment, whereas the price of sin is hell and devils raping you with pitchforks, etc, etc. If he is truly settling the score, then he should be in hell.
So... that would then mean that everyone born before jesus died would not have the *room* in which they could act on their free will, and that *they* had no choice in the whole thing?
It would also mean they weren't forgiven, and thus anyone born before jesus existence, or anyone who's never heard of him is doomed.
Right?
If you argue against this and say that the people who were around before jesus existence just repented to god himself and got forgiven, then jesus entire existence has no valid purpose.
So.. which is it?
mario said:
you query is only unreolveable if you dont understand what is behind the literalism of it.
Originally there was an Earth religious understanding of DIRECT experience, where you EXPRESS you deep emotions in a ritualistic context which is real spirituality
What the ascetic reformers of this originary myth did, like the Orp[hics--a major influence for the Christian belief--was to create a dogma (itself influenced by Eastern beliefs, including Zoroastrianism), that claimed we are in original sin and needed purification.
The secret intiatory gnosis of the Christians was the use of an hallucinogenic sacrament.
The 'superficial' myth is of an actual god~man in historical time who is sacrificed for our sins. The secret is gorgotten, taboo, etc, whilst the literalized story is believed. Hence the confusion. both sides, believers and non-believers dont apparently want to explore these deeper meanings
water said:
who did jesus pay?
water said:
is free will a decision made on the foundation of the threat of punishment.
i would think that free will is having the ability to choose between options, with full experience and understanding of all the options and their consequences but also the strength of will to choose and stay with the option that is most beneficial.
and i ask again who did jesus pay?
ellion said:
The concept of "paying" has some implications that don't seem pertinent to this particular issue.
Like, if one pays something, one pays it *to* someone. We can also use some other concepts, like sacrifice. I am sure religionists will be able to give you a more comprehensive explanation.
But, to keep to the topic: The way I understand it so far, God promised to forgive, and Jesus' sacrifice, his "payment" is the living image of this promise.
In terms of humans, this is a nonsensical demand for free will.
In order for "full experience and understanding of all the options and their consequences but also the strength of will to choose and stay with the option that is most beneficial", one would have to be omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent. Humans aren't that.
We're once more at the free will debate. One is going on here http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=45375&page=2&pp=20 . You are most welcome to join there.
The term "payment" may be used in terms of a ransom: God gave people laws to live by and guidelines to know Him by, but every sin put them more and more into debt with these laws - a debt they would have had to pay for with their lives. Jesus volunteered to pay our debt to justice, and God "transferred it to his account". Now we owe our lives to Him, but He shows us the love and forgiveness of God (He is, like water so eloquently says, "the living image of this promise") in a way that a law never could.
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somehow i missed this post.Jenyar said:
anyway, if he gave his life and he is still alive, he never really gave his life he just moved it from one place to the other. besides giving requires a reciever so this reaffirms the idea of a 'payment'
(Dionysos) (Jesus)
Names are etymologically linked (Allegro, 1970)
In fact Jesus myth is taken FROM Dionysian-Orphic myth.
In ORIGINARY Dionysianism, the 'sacrifice' was the RIGIDITY of the individual. This is why one of the god's names (Dionysos was called the god of many names) was 'Loosener'
The celebrants drank Dionysos. and became possed by him. Do you understnd what being possessed mans? that 'you' are taken over by a mucg largder sense of Being is what. Modern psychedelicists would term it 'mind-expansion', but it means the same thing
The Bacchanal (The ritual of Dionysos) would encourage utterly free abandoned expression. An allowing of the animal within us freedom. we Are animals and it wants out!
What the Christians did--as influenced by the Dionysian reformers, the ascetic Orphics--who had created a divisive dogma (they got lost in philsophical abstractioning and took their mental operations for reality)--was create a myth, combined with Judaism which sought to 'purify' what by now they had considered was a BAd part of us, 'original sin', which included for them, animality. so THEIR myth included SECRETLT hallucinogenic gnosis, for the elite intiates, and the symbolism was of A son of God who had to be sacrificed.
As Allegro shows (ibid) underneath the surface story are severt references t hallucinogenic gnosis, but as these become forgotten, all thats left is the pseudo-historical stoy of an ACTUAL man sent from 'God' who is 'sacrificed' to help redeem 'mankind'
questions?
Names are etymologically linked (Allegro, 1970)
In fact Jesus myth is taken FROM Dionysian-Orphic myth.
In ORIGINARY Dionysianism, the 'sacrifice' was the RIGIDITY of the individual. This is why one of the god's names (Dionysos was called the god of many names) was 'Loosener'
The celebrants drank Dionysos. and became possed by him. Do you understnd what being possessed mans? that 'you' are taken over by a mucg largder sense of Being is what. Modern psychedelicists would term it 'mind-expansion', but it means the same thing
The Bacchanal (The ritual of Dionysos) would encourage utterly free abandoned expression. An allowing of the animal within us freedom. we Are animals and it wants out!
What the Christians did--as influenced by the Dionysian reformers, the ascetic Orphics--who had created a divisive dogma (they got lost in philsophical abstractioning and took their mental operations for reality)--was create a myth, combined with Judaism which sought to 'purify' what by now they had considered was a BAd part of us, 'original sin', which included for them, animality. so THEIR myth included SECRETLT hallucinogenic gnosis, for the elite intiates, and the symbolism was of A son of God who had to be sacrificed.
As Allegro shows (ibid) underneath the surface story are severt references t hallucinogenic gnosis, but as these become forgotten, all thats left is the pseudo-historical stoy of an ACTUAL man sent from 'God' who is 'sacrificed' to help redeem 'mankind'
questions?
Yes: Jesus gave his life in our place, and we receive his resurrected life. Jesus, as a human being, gave all that a human being could give (or "pay"), all that death can take from us. Death can take away the life we have, but it cannot take away the life God gives: eternal life, which is the new life available through Christ, the power of God.Ellion said:
A good summary can be found in Hebrews 9, and Paul's epistle to the Romans goes into much more detail.
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The term "payment" may be used in terms of a ransom: God gave people laws to live by and guidelines to know Him by, but every sin put them more and more into debt with these laws - a debt they would have had to pay for with their lives.
So, the concept of demanding ransom came from your god? Is he little more than a loan shark?
Jesus volunteered to pay our debt to justice, and God "transferred it to his account". Now we owe our lives to Him
Why didn't your god simply have Jesus' knee-caps broken?
So, the concept of demanding ransom came from your god? Is he little more than a loan shark?
Jesus volunteered to pay our debt to justice, and God "transferred it to his account". Now we owe our lives to Him
Why didn't your god simply have Jesus' knee-caps broken?