What is evil?

KilljoyKlown

Whatever
Valued Senior Member
I watched a program about this guy several months ago and I'm still wondering what purpose a scale of evil will serve? I mean when someone gets killed does it really matter how evil the person who caused it is?

Forensic Psychiatrist, Columbia University Michael Stone explains his 22-point scale of evil, ranging from justified homicide to crimes so shocking and unspeakable they “take your breath away.”

http://bigthink.com/ideas/21775?utm...ter_David_Brooks_May_25_2011&utm_medium=email
 
Here's a link to his "evil scale":

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061003204018AANygJ5

I find it interesting that all of his "evil scale" involves killing.

I've recently read a story of a woman who was tortured and raped from 13-15 by her dad before she ran away...well, one night of that story.

There's a lot of evil that leaves the victim a hollow, destroyed, but still living shell, and that happens far more often.
 
Here's a link to his "evil scale":

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061003204018AANygJ5

I find it interesting that all of his "evil scale" involves killing.

I've recently read a story of a woman who was tortured and raped from 13-15 by her dad before she ran away...well, one night of that story.

There's a lot of evil that leaves the victim a hollow, destroyed, but still living shell, and that happens far more often.

You are not the only one that has commented about his scale only involves the death of victims. I believe someone on the link I provided also had that comment. Also I agree with you in that keeping a victim alive for slow torture over time seems like it would be higher on the scale than 22. It takes a very deep evil to torture people for any amount of time let alone for years.
 
Premeditated intent to do physical or psychological harm, in my opinion, is all of it evil, whether or not such involves the taking of life.

The most frightening to my mind, are those who are born, or become through injury or conditioning, without empathy for other living beings.
 
Premeditated intent to do physical or psychological harm, in my opinion, is all of it evil, whether or not such involves the taking of life.

That's true, but how does that apply to the scale if it does?

The most frightening to my mind, are those who are born, or become through injury or conditioning, without empathy for other living beings.

Now you are talking about sociopaths. While sociopaths are capable of great evil most of them are just very tough to be around or in a relationship with.
 
That's true, but how does that apply to the scale if it does?



Now you are talking about sociopaths. While sociopaths are capable of great evil most of them are just very tough to be around or in a relationship with.

Apologies for my oversight.

I should have prefaced my remarks by pointing out that I find the scale of evil woefully inadequate, for how can we define where the line is between 'evil' and 'socially deviant'.

Purely subjective. Conversation starter, perhaps.....

My bad.....
 
Apologies for my oversight.

I should have prefaced my remarks by pointing out that I find the scale of evil woefully inadequate, for how can we define where the line is between 'evil' and 'socially deviant'.

Purely subjective. Conversation starter, perhaps.....

My bad.....

Even if this scale could be improved, of what possible use could it be that would benefit anybody?

I'm just trying to figure out what this Michael Stone's reason for making this scale are, other than the publicity it would give him. After all he's been on TV, he's written a book about it and he has Internet bloggers highlighting his story.
 
Even if this scale could be improved, of what possible use could it be that would benefit anybody?

I'm just trying to figure out what this Michael Stone's reason for making this scale are, other than the publicity it would give him. After all he's been on TV, he's written a book about it and he has Internet bloggers highlighting his story.

You state in your opening post that the author is a forensic psychiatrist. Perhaps because this is what he does, it is of interest to him and this scale is a manner of gaining an arms-length perspective.

Publicity for the book may well also be a motive to reach that sector of the public that has a fascination with the morbid. Not my cup of tea, yet one does still require an understanding that not all of the population is benign if one is to avoid putting one's self in the path of danger unnecessarily.

Just my thoughts of the moment....
 
You state in your opening post that the author is a forensic psychiatrist. Perhaps because this is what he does, it is of interest to him and this scale is a manner of gaining an arms-length perspective.

Publicity for the book may well also be a motive to reach that sector of the public that has a fascination with the morbid. Not my cup of tea, yet one does still require an understanding that not all of the population is benign if one is to avoid putting one's self in the path of danger unnecessarily.

Just my thoughts of the moment....

True, if I was in his place I'd probably do the same, then milk it for all it's worth, then begin improving the scale start the second book schedule high price lectures and more TV appearances, and milk it again and that would allow me to settle into a very comfortable retirement.
 
I should have prefaced my remarks by pointing out that I find the scale of evil woefully inadequate, for how can we define where the line is between 'evil' and 'socially deviant'.

There's a lot of things that are harmless (like me and my wife) that fall mildly to extremely outside the norms of society.

I would say that evil and social deviance are two different things
Either someone is harmed or they are not. If no animal or human (or the environment ) is harmed, there is no evil.
Too, society approves of some evil behavior at times, or at least does not penalize it, like bullying.
But a guy in a floral print dress can get beat up anywhere, even though he's not hurting anybody.
 
Evil has a connection to the emotions of fear, pain, anger, rage. Evil will ignite those emotion potentials, within second and third parties. For example, a thief might experience joy when he steals, since his art may require skill and the score can be lucrative. These positive emotions are due to their belief system and are first party emotions. The second and third parties to that crime (victims and relationships) might become full of rage or fear due to the robbery. Evil does not have to be a wolf in and out, but can also be a wolf in sheeps clothing. It can seem like a positive emotional valence to the first party (sheep). But the evil of the wolf is evident as negative emotions spread to second and third parties.

A serial killer may express joy in their perverse craft, with their slicing and dicing giving them the creative satisfaction of an artist sculpturing stone. But the pain and fear of the victim, and the rage and fear created in those left behind, betrays the wolf under what some think is a sheep.

There is objective fear, pain and rage. There is also subjective fear, pain, rage. Evil can be in both, but not always the same place.

As an example of this contrast, if I poke you with a stick there is real objective pain in your side. You may get mad or begin to fear another poke in the side. This is consistent with the definition of evil; second party pain. If it was an accident and you forgive me, your fear or anger will depart. The physical pain will remain, but the net evil is being neutralized.

In terms of subjective fear, pain, anger, say I convince Sue to get a headache when Betty walks into the room. Sue is easy to fool and her headache pain is conditioned and subjective, with the apparent evil cause and effect of her percieved second party pain, only appearing after many hours of conditioning.

Regardless of the source, there is pain, so there is evil at work. The objective evil is not from Betty, even if Sue thinks Betty is the source of her pain. Rather the evil came from me, the conditioner of evil, who planted the suggestion, so my evil can spread to second and third parties; first Sue then to Betty. Betty is now hurt and angry, at the emotional level, due to a real cause and effect; Sue's negative attitude. I get a double on the score card of evil, with Sue getting the assist sort of like a deflection. I could go for the hat-trick, if I gossip to Claire.

If Betty uses her common sense to figure out Sue was manipulated by me, she may forgive Sue for her negative reaction. The evil is lowering. Sue sees Betty's acceptance and decides so what if my head hurts, Betty is still my friend. Evil decreases even further. Evil starts to melt, using the waters of love and reason.

The big question becomes, is it evil, to induce the emotions of evil, onto a source of evil? For example, if I was caught gossiping and spreading evil via fear, anger and pain, is it evil to do that to me, the original source of evil?

I think the answer works the same way it is done within math. Negative times postive or evil (negative) spreading among the good (positive) is evil (negative). But a double negative multiplies positive.

As an example, say someone broke into your house and was hurting your family. The objective emotions of evil are spreading to you and you family; via the pain, fear and rage. The terror is not subjective or conditioned but instinctive/objective to survival. The police arrive and shoot the source of the evil, thereby pulling out the root of the evil.

We have a double negative, since even a source of evil can feel pain, fear, anger. To see if the double negative math works out, we need to compare before and after, to see if the overall objective evil is still spreading or contracting after the double negative? It is contracting. The subjective pain may be expanding, within the demonstrators, whose react against evil against evil based on a conditioned abstraction. They might get an assist ito evil, they can help the orginal source of evil via the postive times negative aspect of the math.
 
Evil has a connection to the emotions of fear, pain, anger, rage. Evil will ignite those emotion potentials, within second and third parties. For example, a thief might experience joy when he steals, since his art may require skill and the score can be lucrative. These positive emotions are due to their belief system and are first party emotions. The second and third parties to that crime (victims and relationships) might become full of rage or fear due to the robbery. Evil does not have to be a wolf in and out, but can also be a wolf in sheeps clothing. It can seem like a positive emotional valence to the first party (sheep). But the evil of the wolf is evident as negative emotions spread to second and third parties.

A serial killer may express joy in their perverse craft, with their slicing and dicing giving them the creative satisfaction of an artist sculpturing stone. But the pain and fear of the victim, and the rage and fear created in those left behind, betrays the wolf under what some think is a sheep.

There is objective fear, pain and rage. There is also subjective fear, pain, rage. Evil can be in both, but not always the same place.

As an example of this contrast, if I poke you with a stick there is real objective pain in your side. You may get mad or begin to fear another poke in the side. This is consistent with the definition of evil; second party pain. If it was an accident and you forgive me, your fear or anger will depart. The physical pain will remain, but the net evil is being neutralized.

In terms of subjective fear, pain, anger, say I convince Sue to get a headache when Betty walks into the room. Sue is easy to fool and her headache pain is conditioned and subjective, with the apparent evil cause and effect of her percieved second party pain, only appearing after many hours of conditioning.

Regardless of the source, there is pain, so there is evil at work. The objective evil is not from Betty, even if Sue thinks Betty is the source of her pain. Rather the evil came from me, the conditioner of evil, who planted the suggestion, so my evil can spread to second and third parties; first Sue then to Betty. Betty is now hurt and angry, at the emotional level, due to a real cause and effect; Sue's negative attitude. I get a double on the score card of evil, with Sue getting the assist sort of like a deflection. I could go for the hat-trick, if I gossip to Claire.

If Betty uses her common sense to figure out Sue was manipulated by me, she may forgive Sue for her negative reaction. The evil is lowering. Sue sees Betty's acceptance and decides so what if my head hurts, Betty is still my friend. Evil decreases even further. Evil starts to melt, using the waters of love and reason.

The big question becomes, is it evil, to induce the emotions of evil, onto a source of evil? For example, if I was caught gossiping and spreading evil via fear, anger and pain, is it evil to do that to me, the original source of evil?

I think the answer works the same way it is done within math. Negative times postive or evil (negative) spreading among the good (positive) is evil (negative). But a double negative multiplies positive.

As an example, say someone broke into your house and was hurting your family. The objective emotions of evil are spreading to you and you family; via the pain, fear and rage. The terror is not subjective or conditioned but instinctive/objective to survival. The police arrive and shoot the source of the evil, thereby pulling out the root of the evil.

We have a double negative, since even a source of evil can feel pain, fear, anger. To see if the double negative math works out, we need to compare before and after, to see if the overall objective evil is still spreading or contracting after the double negative? It is contracting. The subjective pain may be expanding, within the demonstrators, whose react against evil against evil based on a conditioned abstraction. They might get an assist ito evil, they can help the orginal source of evil via the postive times negative aspect of the math.

I'm impressed with your analysis of evil, but don't really get a sense of how to scale it, except maybe by how many secondary parties might be impacted by the original evil act. For instance on the scale 18-22 was allocated to serial killers and mass murderers. Obviously this type of evil activity gets a lot of publicity which means a greater number of secondary and further removed parties will be impacted by the acts of evil.

If that's what you were trying to show, I think you are right. I can't really see any other way the scale can work, because evil by itself can be very subjective and greatly influenced by how close you are to it. Any scale would have to be consistent so that any act of evil could be placed in it, and since this scale only deals in death it falls short.
 
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