What is an act of God?

[water]

What is an act of God?


What is to be recognized as an act of God?

For example: If I prepare for an exam, study only about 10% of the matter, and then pray that I would get questions that I can answer -- and then at the exam I indeed get questions I can answer and pass the exam -- is this to be understood as God granting my prayers?
If yes, why so?
If no, why so?

 

[Lord_Phoenix]

Obviously not god granting you for your prayers. This is because, you could only write what you know. Like an entire course can not suddenly be present in your head without knowing anything. If I were you, I would spend the time studying rather than praying to god.

 

[MarcAC]

What is an act of God?

Creation for one.
CEV

I Cor 3:6 "I planted the seeds, Apollos watered them, but God made them sprout and grow."​

After that we all play our part.

 

[water]

This thread hasn't received much response.

I am asking in all seriousness though.

It is said that whatever one shall ask of God, in faith, one will receive.

Now I would like to know with what surety one can make that certain connection between a prayer and a prayer being granted.

If I pray for something, and what I had prayed for happens -- am I to say that it was God who granted my prayers?

How sure can I be that it wasn't simply my own ability, or luck?

 

[Jenyar]

All answers to prayers can be explained away as luck, coincidence or whatever, after they have entered our realm of experience, because once we got what we asked for, it seems perfectly normal that we should have it. It's a kind of ex post justification, which is always available. The key is then to remember how likely you thought the answer was at the time you asked (which is, after all, why you felt compelled to ask).

The same with miracles. After they had happened, it seems perfectly ordinary that they should have happened, because in retrospect they have a 100% chance of happening!

 

[water]

All answers to prayers can be explained away as luck, coincidence or whatever, after they have entered our realm of experience, because once we got what we asked for, it seems perfectly normal that we should have it. It's a kind of ex post justification, which is always available. The key is then to remember how likely you thought the answer was at the time you asked (which is, after all, why you felt compelled to ask).

The same with miracles. After they had happened, it seems perfectly ordinary that they should have happened, because in retrospect they have a 100% chance of happening!

I see your point -- it seems you are arguing from gratitude and acknowledging that what happened was God's will.
A whole discussion by itself.


But my question remains:

Now I would like to know with what surety one can make that certain connection between a prayer and a prayer being granted.

If I pray for something, and what I had prayed for happens -- am I to say that it was God who granted my prayers?

The issue may seem somewhat less problematic when it comes to things that are regarded as "morally right, desireable, good".

But what if I pray that someone I really really dislike would do bad, face defeat? What if I would pray, "God, please make Tina suffer, for I hate her guts." -- and then something bad happens to her! Am I to treat this as a prayer granted?

 

[Jenyar]

Now I would like to know with what surety one can make that certain connection between a prayer and a prayer being granted.

If I pray for something, and what I had prayed for happens -- am I to say that it was God who granted my prayers?

The issue may seem somewhat less problematic when it comes to things that are regarded as "morally right, desireable, good".

But what if I pray that someone I really really dislike would do bad, face defeat? What if I would pray, "God, please make Tina suffer, for I hate her guts." -- and then something bad happens to her! Am I to treat this as a prayer granted?

Very good question. I think that is where the real essence of prayer becomes important -- why God simply can't be regarded as a personal slot machine.

I heard the example yesterday of a woman who told our minister how she was cheating on her husband with another man, and how she "earnestly prayed whether God wants her to stay with her husband or divorce Him". He answered that she was not busy with prayer, but with what amounts to blasphemy. If her husband now finds out about her affair and proposes a divorce, she will probably think that God is answering her prayer! If you don't consider God worth trusting or obeying, what are you doing asking Him for favours? Rather ask Him to come into your life and help your unbelief, then you will know how to ask according to His will. We must become children in order to ask as children.

One principle of prayer is that we are in a sense making a "deposit of faith" into a bank with our best interests at heart. We are putting our trust in *this* particular God -- the God of the Bible -- and in doing so, ask Him to include our request in his will. This does not exempt us from what we already know of His will, because it shows us what currency He accepts. Will we pray that God allows us just this little sin, or just that amount of vengeance? Such a prayer will not even be dignified with a second answer; the answer had always been 'no'.

Following Jesus, we should pray "yet not as I will, but as you will” (Matt.26:39) and "your will be done on earth as it is in heaven" (Matt. 6:19) - then be prepared to seek his will; listen actively. If your prayers revolve around the colour of your car, whether you should get out of bed this morning or not, or whether you may win the lottery, then you aren't really showing much concern for God's will. Rather pray for wisdom, because it will help you make all those decisions yourself, and realize how relatively unimportant they are in perspective of your purpose on earth. Pray for forgiveness, because that will put you in a relationship with God where you can see his will more clearly, and where His answers will make more sense to you.

Make every thought a prayer, build a relationship with God, and it will give you confidence in asking and knowing when you have received (1 John 5:14-15).

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Jenyar: All answers to prayers can be explained away as luck, coincidence or whatever, after they have entered our realm of experience, because once we got what we asked for, it seems perfectly normal that we should have it. It's a kind of ex post justification, which is always available. The key is then to remember how likely you thought the answer was at the time you asked (which is, after all, why you felt compelled to ask).

The same with miracles. After they had happened, it seems perfectly ordinary that they should have happened, because in retrospect they have a 100% chance of happening!
*************
M*W: I have to agree with you here, Jenyar, that our prayers will be answered, but it's due to the power of our thinking positively. Miracles happen, too, but these occurrences are only a matter of perception. We believe what we want to believe, and believing makes it so. Unless we believe what we see to be a miracle, then it's not a miracle. A miracle is based on an individual's perception of the actual event, not what he's been told happened at another place and time. Nice try, though.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Jenyar: Make every thought a prayer, build a relationship with God, and it will give you confidence in asking and knowing when you have received (1 John 5:14-15).
*************
M*W: Make every thought a positive thought. Build a relationship with Oneself and experience the miracle of creating your own destiny. (1 Medicine*Woman 13)

 

[Sarkus]

Pray all you like, it won't make a bit of difference.
Everything that happens is just a matter of odds.

You can pray and pray and pray until your hands bleed from being pressed together so tightly - and think that if your prayer is answered that it is from God. But it isn't. It's just you being lucky for once.

In your example, if you studied only 10% of the syllabus and then prayed, and only that 10% of the syllabus was tested, then this is just being lucky. Nothing more.

If someone prays they win the lottery, and then do, is this an "act of God"?
No. In the UK it is merely a 1 in 14,000,000 chance.
And every week someone usually wins.
Does that mean God is answering one person's prayer a week?

Statistics.
Beating the odds.
That's what it's about.
Nothing more.

The "Act of God" is merely a person's interpretation of the event/outcome, when you think the odds are so extreme as to be almost impossible. Their interpretation is thus "it must be an Act of God".
But that is because that person doesn't understand probability.


Also, if "Acts of God" really existed, would he only do them for those that prayed?
If so, wouldn't religious people be seen to be "luckier" than non-religious?
Of course, to answer that properly you have to take into account people's mental attitude to opportunity, people's aversion to risk, and a whole raft of other factors that affect how "lucky" people perceive themselves.

 

[Jenyar]

Also, if "Acts of God" really existed, would he only do them for those that prayed?
If so, wouldn't religious people be seen to be "luckier" than non-religious?
Of course, to answer that properly you have to take into account people's mental attitude to opportunity, people's aversion to risk, and a whole raft of other factors that affect how "lucky" people perceive themselves.

That would have been true if the God who existed to answer prayers were Abudantia or Fortuna.

 

[water]

I heard the example yesterday of a woman who told our minister how she was cheating on her husband with another man, and how she "earnestly prayed whether God wants her to stay with her husband or divorce Him". He answered that she was not busy with prayer, but with what amounts to blasphemy. If her husband now finds out about her affair and proposes a divorce, she will probably think that God is answering her prayer!

This only as an aside: For some reason it surprises me each time anew how such things can happen -- that someone of a declared religious faith, knowing all the commandments, praying and regularly going to church can cheat on their spouse or commit some other thing that they themselves consider to be a sin.

If you don't consider God worth trusting or obeying, what are you doing asking Him for favours?

Crucial point!
Something one should sort out before one goes and asks something!



* * *

Pray all you like, it won't make a bit of difference.
Everything that happens is just a matter of odds.

That's not true.
As I sit here and type this post -- is this a matter of odds?
Well, sub specie aeternitatis, maybe. But if I am to consider my own actions, the things I do to be a matter of odds, then I in effect say that I have no will of my own, and that it is mere coincidence that my fingers hit the keys in a certain order that makes words you can read and understand.

What we do does have an effect on the environment, we do have some control -- to declare everything to be a matter of odds is to declare we have no will. What is unclear and open for discussion is what exactly those effects are, and in what relation they are to eachother, and to us.

You can pray and pray and pray until your hands bleed from being pressed together so tightly - and think that if your prayer is answered that it is from God. But it isn't. It's just you being lucky for once.

This is a statement of faith. You have no proof that a prayer isn't answered by God.

In your example, if you studied only 10% of the syllabus and then prayed, and only that 10% of the syllabus was tested, then this is just being lucky. Nothing more.

I see what you mean, of course. But I have been having this lucky streak for quite some time -- and mostly without prayer. Be it passing an exam with little preparation or avoiding a car from hitting me, in the last moment.
Luck, I could easily say.
But everytime it happens, I get more and more scared -- what if this was the last time? What if the next time I won't get so lucky?

One thing is to think about these lucky coincidences merely as a thought experiment. But something else is facing them on a regular basis. Have you any idea what this feels like?

One begins to depend on one's luck, whether one likes it or not. At the same time, being aware that it was all just luck becomes very hard to bear.

If someone prays they win the lottery, and then do, is this an "act of God"?
No. In the UK it is merely a 1 in 14,000,000 chance.
And every week someone usually wins.
Does that mean God is answering one person's prayer a week?

There is always the issue open of what one can meaningfully pray for.

Statistics.
Beating the odds.
That's what it's about.
Nothing more.

Alright. If you'd get married, or already are married, what will you say or what have you said to your future wife? "I think the statistics are good for us, you have outcompeted all other women by having more luck with me, so let's get married"?

The "Act of God" is merely a person's interpretation of the event/outcome, when you think the odds are so extreme as to be almost impossible. Their interpretation is thus "it must be an Act of God".
But that is because that person doesn't understand probability.

Or they know something about gratitude that those blindly following statistics don't know.

Also, if "Acts of God" really existed, would he only do them for those that prayed?
If so, wouldn't religious people be seen to be "luckier" than non-religious?

I think it depends a lot on what one prays for.

 

[Lord_Phoenix]

lol Itopal, good reply. Well if everything is made by god then god also made evil, chaos and depression.

 

[water]

Itopal,


I see your line of thinking. But your explanation carries no explanatory value. It is like saying "red is red because it is red".

 

[Sarkus]

That's not true.
As I sit here and type this post -- is this a matter of odds?
Well, sub specie aeternitatis, maybe. But if I am to consider my own actions, the things I do to be a matter of odds, then I in effect say that I have no will of my own, and that it is mere coincidence that my fingers hit the keys in a certain order that makes words you can read and understand.

Okay, I don't believe we have freewill.
I believe we have an illusion of freewill only - but for all intent and purpose this illusion suffices, and is called freewill.

Again, I do not think, until you get to the quantum level, that there is anything called "odds" - as everything is deterministic - based on the past.
However, because we can never tap into that determinism to absolutely know the future we rely on odds - the odds being created by that element of past conditions that we do not know.
If we knew ALL the conditions at one moment (or within the range that would be affected during the timescale - i.e. tc) we could state the future of that area 100% accurately.
But we can't - so we have probability to cover up the gaps in the knowledge.

For example, if you rolled a perfect die (i.e. perfectly balanced) on a perfectly smooth table, and you know ALL the motions, positions etc of the die when it is in mid air, then you can state how it will land.
But we can't know all that.
We actually know next-to-buggerall about its starting positions/motions etc and therefore can only predict that it will land on one of its six faces, each face having an equal chance.

When it comes to people, there was a chance, due to the interactions in your brain developed from genetics and past experiences, that you wouldn't have typed anything, or if you did that you mispelt the words.
It is all a matter of probability - because we can not know everything about the universe in
There is no freewill.
In my view every action you do is deterministic - and we use "odds" and "probability" to cover up our lack of knowledge.

I see what you mean, of course. But I have been having this lucky streak for quite some time -- and mostly without prayer. Be it passing an exam with little preparation or avoiding a car from hitting me, in the last moment.
Luck, I could easily say.
But everytime it happens, I get more and more scared -- what if this was the last time? What if the next time I won't get so lucky?

One thing is to think about these lucky coincidences merely as a thought experiment. But something else is facing them on a regular basis. Have you any idea what this feels like?

One begins to depend on one's luck, whether one likes it or not. At the same time, being aware that it was all just luck becomes very hard to bear.

"Luck", or lack of is, just a matter of perception.

 

[Jenyar]

For example, if you rolled a perfect die (i.e. perfectly balanced) on a perfectly smooth table, and you know ALL the motions, positions etc of the die when it is in mid air, then you can state how it will land.

Would imperfection spoil our knowledge?

 

[Sarkus]

No.
By "perfect" I merely meant something that could be modelled in the simplest of ways.
Thus "imperfection" merely introduces complexity, that's all.

 

[MarcAC]

Okay, I don't believe we have freewill.
I believe we have an illusion of freewill only - but for all intent and purpose this illusion suffices, and is called freewill.

How do you come to this conclusion?

I assume it's not from the quantum level elaboration because at that level humans don't exist (as far as I can tell) and so free will (human trait) can't exist.

However, humans exist at a higher level; free will has to be analysed at a level above the quantum level at which you can begin to define a human.

You may as well say only quantum phenomena exist and you don't.

So why then do you take free will to be an illusion and essentially non-existent?

 

[kenworth]

bill bailey has some funny things to say about this.

 

[Jenyar]

No.
By "perfect" I merely meant something that could be modelled in the simplest of ways.
Thus "imperfection" merely introduces complexity, that's all.

Until recently scientists assumed that natural phenomena such as the weather or the roll of the dice could in principle be predictable given sufficient information about them. Now we know that this is impossible. “Simple deterministic systems with only a few elements can generate random behavior.”

- Robert S. Shaw, "Chaos and complexity" available at Counterbalance.net​