What is a "graven image?" What is "idol worship?"

Medicine*Woman

Jesus: Mythstory--Not History!
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M*W: Could using a credit card be considered as worshipping a "graven image?" Does having a fancy sports car lead to "idol worship?" What about infatuation with another person? What about the ego and one's image of self-importance?

The bible mentions the worship of sacred cows and of gods, but what about societies today that lust after modern graven images and idols?
 
I believe graven means something like a statue or sculpture, so I don't think credit card falls into that category. Although I have cursed it I have never worshipped a credit card. Come to think of it, I do the same for God.
 
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M*W: Could using a credit card be considered as worshipping a "graven image?" Does having a fancy sports car lead to "idol worship?" What about infatuation with another person? What about the ego and one's image of self-importance?

The bible mentions the worship of sacred cows and of gods, but what about societies today that lust after modern graven images and idols?

I don't want to fully discuss this, it's much too long to type.

However what I can say is...
People were worshiping the specific qualities of animals, perhaps the patience of the turtle or the strength of the crocodile. They were in turn giving the animals anthropomorphic properties...then to remind themselves of these specific properties they would make the animal into a graven image that would emphasize these properties. This image would remind them daily of what they wanted to be. Over time when the intent was lost they started to believe the animal truly existed as a deity in history.

This is the process which will always be followed when you acquire your personal traits (in hebrew Midos) from Animals, or non-Religious scripts.
 
An idol is an object that is worshipped. Not just a representation of the agent or deity that one worships, but the object of that worship.

During the time the scriptures were written that became incorporated into the Christian bible which comment on "idol worship," there were competing gods with Yahweh/Elohim. There were also idols of worship and "graven" images -these were images that were inscribed, carved or engraved (thus the term "graven") which were considered to be actual deities, representatives of deities, or actually inhabited by the deity. These gods ranged from Ashtar, Ashera, Baal, Lotan, Ishat, El, Elsh, Shamu, Sin, and many others. Ironically, Yahweh was among these Canaanite gods and the son of El (the singular of Elohim?).

As the cult of Yahweh grew in prominence and status, it dominated other cults and began to position itself as the true cult. The birth of Islamo-Judeo-Christian monotheism is very likely the result of a fad within the Canaanites that developed into a hegemony.

The biblical phrase, "there shall be no gods before me" might actually be a literal instruction: "I'm in the statue. Put me up front and the rest behind me." Instead, modern monotheists believe this means (and they may be right) that the author of the phrase was implying that his god was the only god and other gods are false. Regardless, its an acknowledgment by the biblical author that there did exist other gods at one time and these gods had followers. People very likely followed gods for various reasons, depending on the day, season, need, etc. -adding, subtracting, and swapping as they felt appropriate.

And, yes, the Canaanites became the "Israelites." The archaeology shows this to be the case. And, yes, Yahweh is a Canaanite god.
 
An idol is an object that is worshipped. Not just a representation of the agent or deity that one worships, but the object of that worship.

During the time the scriptures were written that became incorporated into the Christian bible which comment on "idol worship," there were competing gods with Yahweh/Elohim. There were also idols of worship and "graven" images -these were images that were inscribed, carved or engraved (thus the term "graven") which were considered to be actual deities, representatives of deities, or actually inhabited by the deity. These gods ranged from Ashtar, Ashera, Baal, Lotan, Ishat, El, Elsh, Shamu, Sin, and many others. Ironically, Yahweh was among these Canaanite gods and the son of El (the singular of Elohim?).

As the cult of Yahweh grew in prominence and status, it dominated other cults and began to position itself as the true cult. The birth of Islamo-Judeo-Christian monotheism is very likely the result of a fad within the Canaanites that developed into a hegemony.

The biblical phrase, "there shall be no gods before me" might actually be a literal instruction: "I'm in the statue. Put me up front and the rest behind me." Instead, modern monotheists believe this means (and they may be right) that the author of the phrase was implying that his god was the only god and other gods are false. Regardless, its an acknowledgment by the biblical author that there did exist other gods at one time and these gods had followers. People very likely followed gods for various reasons, depending on the day, season, need, etc. -adding, subtracting, and swapping as they felt appropriate.

And, yes, the Canaanites became the "Israelites." The archaeology shows this to be the case. And, yes, Yahweh is a Canaanite god.

Okay, fine believe that if you want. My answer was more practical. Your answer is disagreed upon by every single Jewish scholar in all of history though. You think the Jewish scholars might know the Torah better than you? Maybe?

Why in the Tanakh does it say multiple times "You may not be like the Canaanites" or "The Canaanites can stay in this land if they..."
 
I'm an archaeologist. I don't get my truth from propaganda no matter how old it is. The age of propaganda does not inversely correlate to truth.

The material record of the region, however, shows a transition from Canaanite to Israelite regardless of what your personal indoctrination or belief system would have you believe. If it comforts you at night to think of yourself as part of a special civilization that didn't have to evolve like the rest of us, then feel free.

Just don't expect to make a priori claims about it and not have them challenged.
 
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M*W: Could using a credit card be considered as worshipping a "graven image?" Does having a fancy sports car lead to "idol worship?" What about infatuation with another person? What about the ego and one's image of self-importance?

The bible mentions the worship of sacred cows and of gods, but what about societies today that lust after modern graven images and idols?
To grave meant to sculpt or carve. So somewhat 3d image of a deity or holy creature or spirit. I think the concern is that the object is seen as magical and I assume this was part of the 'let's get rid of the other religions' efforts by the monotheists.

I think you are stretching the intent with some of your examples, but a case could be made.
 
I'm an archaeologist. I don't get my truth from propaganda no matter how old it is. The age of propaganda does not inversely correlate to truth.

The material record of the region, however, shows a transition from Canaanite to Israelite regardless of what your personal indoctrination or belief system would have you believe. If it comforts you at night to think of yourself as part of a special civilization that didn't have to evolve like the rest of us, then feel free.

Just don't expect to make a priori claims about it and not have them challenged.

Your archaeological 'evidence' shows that the definition of "graven image" is as you said...eh?
 
skinwalker your assessment that it might be meant to be taken literally actually makes a lot of sense. Especially when you consider the attributes of the 10 plagues of Egypt. They are aimed SPECIFICALLY at the Egyptian GODS

For instance Ra- sun god, eclipse
Hathor - fertility, death of the first born
ect

doesnt make much sence to "weaken" things which "dont exist". if there were no gods but "god" then why bother doing this? he would have been better being proactivly atacking the goverment of Eygpt rather than there fake gods

Of course i dont belive ANY of them exist:p
 
No. That was from my command of the English language. What is your definition of graven? Just out of curiosity.

Which language was it originally written in again?

By the way feeble...

לֹא תַעֲשׂוּן, אִתִּי: אֱלֹהֵי כֶסֶף וֵאלֹהֵי זָהָב, לֹא תַעֲשׂוּ לָכֶם.

Is the line..."Graven images" is a poor translation of the original...as is much of the Christian testaments.
 
To grave meant to sculpt or carve. So somewhat 3d image of a deity or holy creature or spirit. I think the concern is that the object is seen as magical and I assume this was part of the 'let's get rid of the other religions' efforts by the monotheists.

Exactly. Bas relief was a very popular form of art and industry in antiquity, particularly when writing was either in its infancy or the luxury of elites. I say "industry" because there are many examples of bas relief (and even figures in the round) that seem "artistic" to us today, but were undoubtedly created in a formulaic manner. The any-color-as-long-as-it's-black mentality that seems to say that many bas relief figures were not intended to be viewed so much as works of art or as artistic expression as a means of conveying information.

Information in such a manner was costly and affordable only by religion and government, so it follows that much of what we have in bas relief relates to these endeavors.

I think you are stretching the intent with some of your examples, but a case could be made.

Agreed. Its easy to apply these terms metaphorically to other human endeavors and constructs and, psychologically they might not even be far from their religious origins. Coveting wealth, power; idolizing the wealthy and powerful; worshiping the condition of wealth and power...
 
Which language was it originally written in again?

By the way feeble...

לֹא תַעֲשׂוּן, אִתִּי: אֱלֹהֵי כֶסֶף וֵאלֹהֵי זָהָב, לֹא תַעֲשׂוּ לָכֶם.

Is the line..."Graven images" is a poor translation of the original...as is much of the Christian testaments.

Don't be a dick. Since you're betting I don't read Hebrew, you're going to toss out some Hebrew script and imply that, since you read it, you're therefore an expert on Canaanite archaeology.

Whichever (if any) of the characters above correlate to the word (in an alphabet the rest of us read) as "pacel" is the word that equates to "graven." This Hebrew word (pronounced PAH-SEL, if I remember right) means to carve out. The English version is derived from an earlier Germanic word graben which means to dig.

So, are you saying that "graven image" means something other than a carved/engraved image or not?
 
The bible mentions the worship of sacred cows and of gods, but what about societies today that lust after modern graven images and idols?
there is a thread somewhere on sciforums that is chock full of "graven images".
i never laughed so hard in all my life, then felt guilty about it.
 
Don't be a dick. Since you're betting I don't read Hebrew, you're going to toss out some Hebrew script and imply that, since you read it, you're therefore an expert on Canaanite archaeology.

Whichever (if any) of the characters above correlate to the word (in an alphabet the rest of us read) as "pacel" is the word that equates to "graven." This Hebrew word (pronounced PAH-SEL, if I remember right) means to carve out. The English version is derived from an earlier Germanic word graben which means to dig.

So, are you saying that "graven image" means something other than a carved/engraved image or not?

There's no word "Graven Image" in the line at all. The line computer translated is "Supporting ethical, oaths of money and oaths of gold, you will not do you". But it is more often translated as "Don't represent my and my deeds with statues of gold".

The word you are referring to פסל is not there. Which means "Sculpture" but changing the wording a little can make it "Sculptures" by making it "פסלים"
 
This is the problem with translations. They end up as interpretations.
 
Wait...I didn't recognize what commandment you were talking about.


לֹא-תַעֲשֶׂה לְךָ פֶסֶל, וְכָל-תְּמוּנָה, אֲשֶׁר בַּשָּׁמַיִם מִמַּעַל, וַאֲשֶׁר בָּאָרֶץ מִתָּחַת--וַאֲשֶׁר בַּמַּיִם, מִתַּחַת לָאָרֶץ.


Translated officially as "Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;"

The word לְךָ means to follow. For example they made the arc at the bottom of Sinai to literally follow... It's further understanding comes from the Exodus 20:19.

The verse I was giving you was Exodus 20:19, a clarification of this commandment (Exodus 20:3)
 
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The second one. Thou shalt not make graven images. I think it is Deut 5:11

Wait, now I am confused, apparently there are differences between Catholics and Protestants!

This one


I am the LORD your God,..You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. [Deut. 5:6-10; RSV]
 
Deuteronomy was written by Moses...Evidence...Deut 1:1 "These are the words which Moses spoke unto all Israel "

It's used as equally valid, but you have to check both sources to understand the interpretation.
 
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M*W: Could using a credit card be considered as worshipping a "graven image?" Does having a fancy sports car lead to "idol worship?" What about infatuation with another person? What about the ego and one's image of self-importance?

The bible mentions the worship of sacred cows and of gods, but what about societies today that lust after modern graven images and idols?


a Sports car is not a graven image, nor is infatuation with another person.

A Graven Image is a dead Image, an image that has no Life, the image of a being,
that does not exist, is not alive, an Illusion, a Lie.

Idolatry is to worship, submit, to the Reality of an Illusion.

Lies, Deception, Duplicity, Guilefulness, is to carve a Graven Image of Reality.

Absolutely Bad Knowledge is a Graven Image, Absolutely Bad Knowledge
Taken to be Absolutely Good Knowledge, Knowledge having a Dual Quality,
the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

A sacred cow can not be touched, an individual, organization, institution, etc.,
considered to be exempt from criticism or questioning.
 
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