what happened to the twelve disciples

M

mis-t-highs

I'm filling up
Registered Senior Member
I was surfing and found this, it's a bloody good question.

I'm wondering if a theist can make clear the following:

Who are there 12 disciples? Mark, Paul, Matthew and Luke have different names on their lists.

When precisely were they named disiciples? (Mark, Paul, Matthew and Luke have different accounts.

Considering that Mark tells us this:

Mark 3:13-19
13: And he went up on the mountain, and called to him those whom he desired; and they came to him. 14: And he appointed twelve, to be with him, and to be sent out to preach 15: and have authority to cast out demons: 16: Simon whom he surnamed Peter; 17: James the son of
Zeb'edee and John the brother of James, whom he surnamed Bo-aner'ges, that is, sons of thunder; 18: Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Cananaean, 19: and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. Then he went home;

It would appear that the 12 had jesus-like powers, and were sent out as preachers.

Why do we have no accounts of their lives?(please dont tell me, we DO have accounts of their lives. Acts of Andrew, etc.I mean Historical accounts? My point is if there were 12 disciples, there'd be no question today concerning the existence of jesus.)
as they were not ordered to remain celebate, why do we not have people who identify themselves as decendents in history, or even today?.


thank you chris

I would very much like to know also.
it's a question that just needs an answer, theres no point in debating it.
but I leave that up, to all of you.
misty.
 
My point is if there were 12 disciples, there'd be no question today concerning the existence of jesus
Click to expand...

:D LOL you wanna bet? It would make no difference if they’re where 2 or 200. People would still find a reason not to believe.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
mis-t-highs said:
It would appear that the 12 had jesus-like powers, and were sent out as preachers.

Why do we have no accounts of their lives?

misty.
Click to expand...

You can see from Paul's account of it in Galatians that there were effectively 2 Church's -- the Church of Christ's Jewish Followers, and Paul's own Gentile Congregation. The 12 Real Apostles were mostly involved with this Genuine Messianic Church... really, they still considered themselves Jews but considered that Jesus had brought them up to the Messianic Dispensation.

With the Destruction of Jerusalem in 71 A.D. the Church of the Real Apostles took a severe hit. The Gentile Congregations that were founded by Paul saw the Authentic Jewish Congregations as rivals... even enemies, since the True Apostles had ceaselessly campaigned against Paul as a False Apostle teaching unlawful doctrines. But when the Messianic Jewish Christians were left reeling from destruction of Jerusalem, the Gentiles took advantage of their vulnerability and destroyed nearly all that was left of True Apostolic Christianity.

So the Bible that comes down to us is largely a fiction with elements of Truth in it, that comes down to us from the Paulist Congregations. After the Death of Christ, we are told of only two Personalities -- Paul, who would be the Hero, and the only Apostle who hinted at giving Paul any recognition, and then only did that for monetary consideration.

It would be easy to suppose that Paul's congregations were totally victorious, but we do find indications that Paulist Doctrines met with significant Messianic Opposition. Scholars site the large Christian Communites that developed on the Italian and Iberian (Spanish) Peninsulas all while Paul had been occupied with Greece and Asia Minor. These Communities radiated out from the Jewish Centers and it must be supposed that they were not as antisemitically oriented as Paul's Christians.

Then we have the Cult of the Virgin Mary which dominated throughout Europe within the Latin Church. We need to remember that the Council of Nicea which formulated the Bible was Chaired by a Greek Emperor, and the City of Nicea was a mere 20 miles from the Greek Capital. Paul was considered a Greek, and the Emperor rather wanted Paul deified because of that Passage in the Epistle to the Roman's which surrendered all Church Authority to Secular Rulers, which the Emperor wanted underlined in red. The Latin Bishops were outvoted and besides, there would be few Bibles published and so they could teach whatever they wanted when back in Latin Europe. They took their new Bibles home to Rome and tossed them in the closets.

Things would go swell for a thousand years before the printing press would abruptly ressurrect paulist doctrine in the Latin West, and Luther would popularize it as Religiously Condoned Free Sin, which is what "Salvation" and "Forgiveness of Sins" is a euphemism for.

Anyway, History has been rough on primary source materials. Look at what we know of Greece which is less remote than Jerusalem. The Archetectural Designs show that the Greeks necessarily must have used glass optics, but there is no written mention nor any artifacts. Stuff simply got lost. In the few surviving fragments of Greek plays we have references to a great number of other plays, writings, and historical characters for which there are no other references in all of what remains of original Greek Literature and History. Paper rots. Manuscript reproduction was expensive. Then we must consider the three or four waves of Barbarian Invasion -- burning, genocide, and looting. To know what we are up against, see how many 200 year old books you can find. Not many, huh. Well, consider how many fewer books we started with 2000 years ago, and that the opportunities for their loss have been multiplied by a factor of ten.
 
Mathew 10 (2-4)
These are the names of the twelve apostles:

- first, Simon (who is called Peter) and
- his brother Andrew;
- James son of Zebedee,
- and his brother John;
- 3Philip and
- Bartholomew;
- Thomas and
- Matthew the tax collector;
- James son of Alphaeus, and
- Thaddaeus;
- 4Simon the Zealot and
- Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

However, you may find this also interesting:

12 labors of Hercules (another half man half god)
12 apostles of Mythra (aka Jesus)
12 signs in the standard zodiac
12 Gods of Olympus
12 tables of Roman Law
12 knights of the Round Table at King Arthur's court
12 tribes of Israel
12 months in a year
12 Greek Titans (they devour Dionysus-Zagreus – aka Jesus)
12 star halo of the Virgin Mary
12 number of Norse Gods in a famous dinner party at Valhalla
12 is the number of witches that group together (the 13th is a devil)
12 hours on a clock
12 days of return to chaos at the Winter Solstice (when the dead return celebrated in the Saturnalia in Rome)
12 days of Christmas
12 days of Yuletide
12 members of the council of the Dalai Lama
12 paladins or peers of Charlemagne
12 Chinese Terrestrial Branches (chih) [Boar, Cock, Dog, Dragon, Goat, Hare, Horse, Monkey, Ox, Rat, Snake, and Tiger] ((six wild,---Yin & six domestic---Yang))
12 fruits of the Tree of Life in Hebrew
12 gates of the Heavenly City (Hebrew)
12 loaves of the Table of the Temple (Hebrew)
12 sons of Jacob
12 precious stones Aaron had in his breastplate
12 twelve torments (Hermetic)
12 descendants of Ali (the Islamic Imams that rule the twelve hours of the day)
12 days of duel between Chaos and Cosmos (Sumero-Semitic)
12 jurors

and . . . . . check this out :)
200px-Flag_of_Europe.png


Lets face it – 13 is an unlucky number :D
 
Leo Volont: "We need to remember that the Council of Nicea which formulated the Bible was Chaired by a Greek Emperor, and the City of Nicea was a mere 20 miles from the Greek Capital"

The First Council of Nicea in 325 was called by Emperor Constantine, in the ancient city of Nicea is located at the site of the modern city Iznik, in Northwest Turkey.

Peace be with you, Paul
 
battig1370 said:
Leo Volont: "We need to remember that the Council of Nicea which formulated the Bible was Chaired by a Greek Emperor, and the City of Nicea was a mere 20 miles from the Greek Capital"

The First Council of Nicea in 325 was called by Emperor Constantine, in the ancient city of Nicea is located at the site of the modern city Iznik, in Northwest Turkey.

Peace be with you, Paul
Click to expand...

What you call Turkey was then Ionian Greece. You are superimposing the Modern Map upon the Ancient World. The Turkish Conquest of Asia Minor would occur only much later. I wonder that you don't also mention that the Greek Capitol was Constantinople which is now the Turkish Capital and that you don't call Constantine the "Turkish Emperor"?
 
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