What exactly IS a Christian?

one_raven

one_raven

God is a Chinese Whisper
Valued Senior Member
I posted this on a different thread a while ago and it basically got ignored and lost in the shuffle of the argument.
I decided that it deserves its own thread, so here it is:

I have always felt that if you define "Christian" as "a follower and adherent of the teachings of Jesus" then I have yet to meet a "real" Christian in my lifetime.
However, if you define "Christian" as "a follower and adherent of the doctrines of the early Christian fathers as codified at the Council of Nicea" then I don't think Jesus would be a Christian.

I have a problem with the "Well, Jesus was perfect, and we couldn't possibly expect to live up to his ideal example".
I am not saying that to be a "good" Christian, you have to be a perfect little Jesus clone, but frankly, I have yet to met someone who seems to even be trying.

Where are the teachings of Jesus found?
First of all, if you are discussing the teachings of Jesus, all the Bible, New and Old Testaments, can be completely discarded, except the four gospels.
Do you agree?
Everything beyond the four gospels in the New Testament, is the apologetic explanations of the founding fathers attempting to codify, explain, explore and justify the teachings of Jesus.

The Old Testament, obviously, came before him. Except for some of his direct references to the Old Testament, regardless of how valuable you may think it is, should be set aside when concerning yourself with Jesus' teachings.

I also reject the Gospel of John for several reasons, so I won't focus on them, but if you have a problem with that, I can understand and we can throw him into the mix as well.

The Gnostic gospels? I think they have some real and qualifiable value, but I can certainly understand why a Christian would reject them as well, and since I rejected John, we can leave them aside.

So we have the only accepted words of Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels.

Matthew, Mark and Luke.

Can we agree on this as a starting point of discussing what the actual words and teachings of Jesus was?


What did Jesus teach?
What he taught about living a virtuous life was not a whole lot different than what the Buddha taught.
Have integrity.
Love your neighbor.
Give to those who do not have.
Do not horde belongings or money.
Don't cheat on your spouse, nor have an affair with someone else's spouse.

They are all basic, simple rules regarding personal conduct in a cooperative community and a healthy, positive outlook.
Some of my favorite quotes (all from NIV)...

Matthew 6:1 "Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 "So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.


Matthew 19:16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18 "Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"
20 "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."


Matthew 9:9 As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.
10 While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"
12 On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."


Luke 6:37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
39 He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40 A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.
41 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42 How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

That's enough quotes for now.


Everyone who has ever condemned anyone to Hell for not being a Christian is not a following Jesus.
Anyone who has not been wholly frugal, and has spent any more than necessary (for, say, a 42 inch flat screen TV, that luxury car, the extravagant home, the fourth video game system) rather than giving that money to the needy, is not following Jesus.
Anyone who lacks mercy for the afflicted, or does not act according to that mercy, is not following Jesus.
Anyone who has held a grudge is not following Jesus.
Anyone who has saved money in the bank and amassed more than he needs to live, rather than giving it to charity, is not following Jesus.
Anyone who wears their religion or piety on their sleeve, acts in a proud manner, holds their purity and chastity over someone else, makes it known the work they do or money they give to the needy, are not following Jesus.
Anyone who has used the words of Jesus to judge ANYONE but themselves is not following Jesus.

No, no one is perfect and any good religion recognizes that fact and sets itself up as a path of self improvement.
However, to be on a path of self improvement you have to be taking steps towards your ideals.

There is quite a significant difference between finding it difficult to live up to the more stringent rules and codes of conduct in a religion and simply ignoring the ones that are inconvenient for your life and lifestyle.
If there is no work, no effort, no striving to reach the ideal, they are not your ideals and you are just posturing, lying and hypocritical.

The VAST majority of self-professed "Christians" I have met do not read the Bible searching for truth or answers.
They already have their answers; they look to the Bible looking for verses and loopholes that will justify their already set points of view.
They don't read the Bible like believers and followers; they read the Bible like lawyers.

Claiming to be a Christian does not make you one.
I think actions and integrity rather than words and ideals define a person.

So, where is the line?
When do you cross the line from being an imperfect follower of Jesus to being a Hypo-Christian?
When you stop going to church? When you stop being repentant? When you steal on a regular basis? When you beat your children? When you commit your first murder? When you break all Ten Commandments?

Where do you draw that line?

There is a difference between expecting perfection and expecting a real and tangible effort and hard work towards your ideal.
Don't you think?
 
"The VAST majority of self-professed "Christians" I have met do not read the Bible searching for truth or answers.
They already have their answers; they look to the Bible looking for verses and loopholes that will justify their already set points of view.
They don't read the Bible like believers and followers; they read the Bible like lawyers.

Claiming to be a Christian does not make you one.
I think actions and integrity rather than words and ideals define a person."


I absolutely agree. And I think it's sad that so many agnostics, atheists, and other non-believers have yet to see true Christianity displayed before their eyes. If they really saw a true depiction of Christ and were able to witness a Christian living their life according to Scripture, they'd see things differently. Sadly, what most of them see are fakes pretending [badly] to be someone they aren't, and in the process mar the true Christian's reputation. I'd have more to say on this matter, but it's 5:01am and I have yet to go to bed. So, 'night!
 
To be a christian, one need only believe that Jesus Christ existed and the biblical word is true.

To be a good christian, however.....
 
one_raven said:
I posted this on a different thread a while ago and it basically got ignored and lost in the shuffle of the argument.
I decided that it deserves its own thread, so here it is:

I have always felt that if you define "Christian" as "a follower and adherent of the teachings of Jesus" then I have yet to meet a "real" Christian in my lifetime.
However, if you define "Christian" as "a follower and adherent of the doctrines of the early Christian fathers as codified at the Council of Nicea" then I don't think Jesus would be a Christian.

I have a problem with the "Well, Jesus was perfect, and we couldn't possibly expect to live up to his ideal example".
I am not saying that to be a "good" Christian, you have to be a perfect little Jesus clone, but frankly, I have yet to met someone who seems to even be trying.

Where are the teachings of Jesus found?
Click to expand...

The market is full of fake bibles that have the words changed.
The King James version is the real bible translated into middle English.
Massoretic text Old Testament; Byzantine or Textus receptus (the majority text) New Testament--- That is the real bible.
Luther's German bible, the King James version, and the Tyndale are translated from these.
{Most of the modern versions have a corrupted Alexandrian text mixed in and about 5% of the words have been changed in the modern versions.}

The teachings of Jesus are found in the King James version New Testament (All of it) and in the parts of the KJV Old Testament that still apply in modern times.
[Jesus said that the scripture cannot be broken, and He was referring to the Old Testament when He said it. It says that He expounded to His disciples the things contained in the prophets and psalms conscerning Himself. The Old Testament has prophecies about the coming Messiah, which Jesus fulfilled and will fulfill.]
What it means to be a real Christian in detail:
How to get saved and be a real Christian
Really believe that Jesus is the Lord, that He is the Son of God, and that He died to pay for your sins so that you can be forgiven. Really believe He rose from the dead. This makes you a believer. After you believe, ask Jesus to save your soul and ask God to forgive your sins. Repent; that means try to not sin, and try to obey nine of the ten commandments. [The one about keeping holy the sabbath day was changed in the New Testament by what Jesus said about it.] Try to not do anything that the New Testament calls a sin. Avoid Sorcery.
Avoid drunkeness, fornication, idolatry, adultery, avoid being effeminate, avoid abusing yourself with mankind, (that means avoid homosexual acts), also avoid reviling and extortion; 1Corinthians 6:9 says that those who do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Try to avoid eating blood or strangled animals or idol sacrifices. If you do sin, tell God you did it and ask Him to forgive you and try again to not sin. As time goes by you will learn to live a holier life, but ask God to forgive you everytime you sin. Now you are a real Christian and would go to heaven if you died and did not turn back into sin and away from God. You should now get baptized as a believer if you have the opportunity to do so, however if you died, you would still go to heaven even if you could not get baptized. But to stay a real Christian, and be Spiritually strong so that you do not backslide, you should do the following things: Read the New Testament to find out what God wants you to do; it is good to continue to reread it. The Old Testament can also teach you important things, but your Christian teachings are in the New Testament. (The King James is the version that is completely accurate; other versions have been altered and are less accurate.) Pray regularly asking God to give you what you need and asking Him to explain to you what the New Testament means before you read it. Also pray asking God to show you what He wants you to do, and to lead you to do His will, in the things that happen in your life. Jesus said to ask God the Father for things in His name, so when you pray, end your prayer by saying something like, "In Jesus name, Amen". Find a church where the Bible is preached and where the words of the Bible are the final authority for what that church believes and attend this church. You can ask God, in the name of Jesus to lead you to attend the church that He wants you to attend. Obey God’s command in the Bible to be baptized after you are a true believer; baptism in the Bible is being pushed all the way under the water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Now you are a real Christian and growing in the ways of the Lord. Obey the New Testament and try to lead others to accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. When you become a real Christian, by repenting and asking Jesus to save your soul, and asking God to forgive your sins, the Holy Spirit of God comes to live inside of you and he leads you into the truth and changes your personality to take on the qualities of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and temperance. These are the qualities that the Holy Spirit of God puts in a person when he becomes a real Christian and is born again of the Spirit, Galatians 5:22,23 and John 3:3,6. Also, using faith, the Christian is taught, in the New Testament, how to be used by God to work miracles such as praying for people to be healed and praying for other things and then seeing it really happen by God’s power.
Also the New Testament talks about praying to receive what is called the baptism in the Holy Spirit, which allows the Christian to further manifest God’s miracle power; Acts 8:15-17, 1Corinthians 12:7-11.
Jesus said, Mark 16:15,16 ; Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned.
John 14:6 Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by Me.
Jesus stated that the only way to go to heaven and be with God is by Jesus. Christianity is the only true way to go to heaven and avoid being damned in hell.
 
SkinWalker said:
To be a christian, one need only believe that Jesus Christ existed and the biblical word is true.

To be a good christian, however.....
Click to expand...

You need to believe in Jesus as your Lord and Saviour and repent of sin.
Try to not do anything that the New Testament calls a sin.
You need to read the New Testament to see what it calls a sin, and to find out what God wants you to do. He is your Lord if you submit your life to His teachings. Read the King James version New Testament to find out what His teachings are.
If you do sin, ask God in prayer to forgive you, and continue trying to not sin.
 
So? When you ask what Christianity means (or at least is supposed to mean), you're asking for exactly that myth.
 
SkinWalker said:
Superstitious poppycock that has no basis in reality... just myth.
Click to expand...

The Lord Jesus christ said:
Luke 12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

If you ever see a ufo piloted by God's angels, then run. It might help you to live longer.
 
If you ever see a ufo piloted by God's angels, then run. It might help you to live longer.

roflolk.gif
You cant be serious? Are christians THAT stupid?
 
More woo-woo poppycock. Its a convenient cult that includes poisoning-the-well strategies in its doctrines, but there is still more reason to disbelieve the nonsense of your cult than to accept it.
 
one_raven said:
I posted this on a different thread a while ago and it basically got ignored and lost in the shuffle of the argument.
I decided that it deserves its own thread, so here it is:

I have always felt that if you define "Christian" as "a follower and adherent of the teachings of Jesus" then I have yet to meet a "real" Christian in my lifetime.
However, if you define "Christian" as "a follower and adherent of the doctrines of the early Christian fathers as codified at the Council of Nicea" then I don't think Jesus would be a Christian.

The base beliefs of christianity were established in the first century by the apostles, well before the Council of Nicea. Even the basic structure of the Bible Books was well accepted with a only minor variations by the second century. Nicea did not 'start things off.'


I have a problem with the "Well, Jesus was perfect, and we couldn't possibly expect to live up to his ideal example".
I am not saying that to be a "good" Christian, you have to be a perfect little Jesus clone, but frankly, I have yet to met someone who seems to even be trying.

I do not know the 'christains' you meet, but I can assure you that there is a lot of trying goes on in the ones I know (and a lot of failing as well of course!).

Where are the teachings of Jesus found?
First of all, if you are discussing the teachings of Jesus, all the Bible, New and Old Testaments, can be completely discarded, except the four gospels.
Do you agree?
Everything beyond the four gospels in the New Testament, is the apologetic explanations of the founding fathers attempting to codify, explain, explore and justify the teachings of Jesus.

I do not agree. The apostles (including Peter, a pretty down to earth and basic sort of man) accepted that Paul had met with the real person of Jesus, albeit after his resurrection, so his letters are from a man who met Jesus and count. The whole bible fits together if you check the cross referencing about various different subjects. There is not a 'Jesus view', a 'Peter view' and a 'Paul view'. They are just presented in a different way often beacuse they are to widely different audiences. Jesus and Peter were normally talking to Jews with their particular world view whilst Paul talked to gentiles with a very different world view.

The Old Testament, obviously, came before him. Except for some of his direct references to the Old Testament, regardless of how valuable you may think it is, should be set aside when concerning yourself with Jesus' teachings.

Clearly the Old Testament sets the scene for the need of Jesus and details as to how he would come (and what would happen to him, but clearly as you say on the basis of prophecy before the events.)

I also reject the Gospel of John for several reasons, so I won't focus on them, but if you have a problem with that, I can understand and we can throw him into the mix as well.

The gospel is different but is early (first century) and could well have been written by John as listed. Do you not like it because of its strong theological rather than narrative style?

The Gnostic gospels? I think they have some real and qualifiable value, but I can certainly understand why a Christian would reject them as well, and since I rejected John, we can leave them aside.

The fact that they were written much later and therefore not by the persons to whom they are ascribed is proven fact. They are self contradictory and really are only useful for authors of poor fiction and ill researched articles to quote as true sources.

So we have the only accepted words of Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels.

Matthew, Mark and Luke.

Can we agree on this as a starting point of discussing what the actual words and teachings of Jesus was?

I have no problem with that


What did Jesus teach?
What he taught about living a virtuous life was not a whole lot different than what the Buddha taught.
Have integrity.
Love your neighbor.
Give to those who do not have.
Do not horde belongings or money.
Don't cheat on your spouse, nor have an affair with someone else's spouse.

They are all basic, simple rules regarding personal conduct in a cooperative community and a healthy, positive outlook.
Some of my favorite quotes (all from NIV)...

Matthew 6:1 "Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 "So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.


Matthew 19:16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18 "Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"
20 "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."


Matthew 9:9 As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.
10 While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"
12 On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."


Luke 6:37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
39 He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40 A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.
41 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42 How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

That's enough quotes for now.

No one can deny that Buddhism teaches good morality (althoough again not always practiced by all Buddhists at all times!) but Jesus' main point was not moralistic teaching although he did speak about that.

The Buddha was content for people to aim for perfection by their own efforts whilst knowing that it was not possible to get there.

Jesus' accepted that people cpuld not justify themselves by works but stated that the Father had sent him, a part of the Godhead, to live as a man as a living sacrifice to pay the penalty for all the wrongdoing that mankind had done and would do in future.

So one says you won't make it but don't worry just do your best (and fail!) whilst the other says you will fail but if you trust in me I will save you from the worst of the inevitable consequences of that failure ('hell' if you wish to describe it as that) and will help you to achieve more than you could ever have done by your own efforts.



Everyone who has ever condemned anyone to Hell for not being a Christian is not a following Jesus.

I agree with that. It is for God alone to say who is going where. We have no
knowledge and even less authority!

Anyone who has not been wholly frugal, and has spent any more than necessary (for, say, a 42 inch flat screen TV, that luxury car, the extravagant home, the fourth video game system) rather than giving that money to the needy, is not following Jesus.

It is for individuals to reconcile their lifestyle with God including how they spend their money. Jesus did not say that it was wrong to be wealthy but it was wrong for money to become a god as happens with many people and that includes many who are not rich as well as not including many who are rich. It is about where you put your priorities - getting money or worshipping God.

Anyone who lacks mercy for the afflicted, or does not act according to that mercy, is not following Jesus.

Yes but Jesus accepted that one person cannot do everything.


Anyone who has held a grudge is not following Jesus.
Anyone who has saved money in the bank and amassed more than he needs to live, rather than giving it to charity, is not following Jesus.
Anyone who wears their religion or piety on their sleeve, acts in a proud manner, holds their purity and chastity over someone else, makes it known the work they do or money they give to the needy, are not following Jesus.
Anyone who has used the words of Jesus to judge ANYONE but themselves is not following Jesus.

No, no one is perfect and any good religion recognizes that fact and sets itself up as a path of self improvement.
However, to be on a path of self improvement you have to be taking steps towards your ideals.

There is quite a significant difference between finding it difficult to live up to the more stringent rules and codes of conduct in a religion and simply ignoring the ones that are inconvenient for your life and lifestyle.
If there is no work, no effort, no striving to reach the ideal, they are not your ideals and you are just posturing, lying and hypocritical.

The VAST majority of self-professed "Christians" I have met do not read the Bible searching for truth or answers.
They already have their answers; they look to the Bible looking for verses and loopholes that will justify their already set points of view.
They don't read the Bible like believers and followers; they read the Bible like lawyers.

Claiming to be a Christian does not make you one.
I think actions and integrity rather than words and ideals define a person.

So, where is the line?
When do you cross the line from being an imperfect follower of Jesus to being a Hypo-Christian?
When you stop going to church? When you stop being repentant? When you steal on a regular basis? When you beat your children? When you commit your first murder? When you break all Ten Commandments?

Where do you draw that line?

There is a difference between expecting perfection and expecting a real and tangible effort and hard work towards your ideal.
Don't you think?
Click to expand...

Going to church does not make you a christian or not but good christians like to have fellowship with like minded people and to worship God and you can do that in a good church and it can be fun. But if you go out of religious duty you waste your time.


A christian needs to believe that mankind is fallen. That he is capable of good and also evil and that no matter how much he tries he will never of his own volition overcome (totally) his bad behaviour, although that should not be an excuse for not trying as hard as possible!

He needs to believe that part of the Godhead was 'born' into the world as flesh and bones in order to pay for the original disobedience of mankind and so balance the scales. So you need to believe in the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus the Christ (or anointed one). This is based on faith, not a blind illogical faith but faith as there is no scientific proof for the supernatural one way or the other.

The person then needs to accept the fact personally and ask Jesus for a relationship with him so going beyond the belief of the mind and instead involving his own person with the Godhead. To do this you do need to acknowledge your own failings ('sin' if you like). In other words you have to be honest.

If you do this, you have become a christian but you have not 'arrived'. You have just started a journey that will be challenging and exciting.

If you truly have done this (in other words meant it, not just mouthed the words) you will find that you will be changed and that you will want to change more. You will want to do what Jesus said more and more (although you will still fail!). That's where other christian friends will help with fellowship and prayer etc. and that's where church and other groups can come in.
Peter said faith without works is dead and it's true. If you really love God you cannot not love people and if you love people then you have to help them if they are in need. So if you do not do any deeds then you really have no faith!


There are plenty of christians out there but I agree there are also plenty who would call themselves that but show little real sign of being so.

I hope you can meet some real christians who can help and I will pray for you.

I think you are are very much on the right path. You just need to speak honestly to God. He awaits your call!

very kindest regards,


Gordon.
 
The simple answer remains: christians are religious nutters that believe in the myth of Jesus Christ and the accept the doctrine of the bible (whether they've read it or not) as true.
 
Christianity is an open community so the rules for being a member are pretty loose and vague. I think a practical working definition of "Christian," especially for us outsiders, would be centered on believing that in order to be a good person, one must try to follow the teachings of Christ.

That neatly sidesteps a number of questions. Was Christ a real historical figure? Was he divine? Was he resurrected? What did he teach? Are his teachings accurately recorded in the New Testament? Must one have faith in a deity or anything supernatural to follow his teachings? Do any or all of the various organized "Christian" churches reflect what Christ would have wished for? Can people follow other religions--or no religion--yet still be true to Christ's teachings? Do we have immortal souls? Is there an afterlife? How bad a person do you have to be before you're hopelessly lost to Christ?

There are many people who would answer "no," "I'm not sure," or "I don't think about it," to some or all of those questions, yet by any reasonable and objective standard they appear to live the way Christ would have wanted, and all but the most doggedly fundamentalist Christians are content to share the earth with them in harmony. And it's hardly necessary to state that the reverse is plentifully true.

So I think my definition is as good as any.
 
ghost7584 said:
The King James version is the real bible
Click to expand...

'real', now that is funny?

Real, in what context? In that it's contents were chosen centuries after the fact, and many chapters excluded? Revelations was nearly excluded! Please explain why what made it into the final cut of the KJV Bible made it 'real' and why each Apochryphal chapter was not 'real'.
 
Fraggle Rocker said:
Christianity is an open community so the rules for being a member are pretty loose and vague. I think a practical working definition of "Christian," especially for us outsiders, would be centered on believing that in order to be a good person, one must try to follow the teachings of Christ.

Whilst it is very nice of you 'an outsider' to define what we christians are, it is perhaps not surprising that it is not actually correct.
What you have described is a sort of moralistic humanism with an intellectual belief in an historical figure, Jesus Christ, added in. This is not what real christianity is about.

Whilst christianity requires you to believe certain things and clearly does have a moral code, neither of these are its defining characteristic. Real christianity requires you to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit. Indeed most people become christians not because of intellectual argument confirming His existence (although a few do) but because of the experience of meeting Him. As I presume you have not experienced this, I suspect that you will not fully understand what this means and be rather sceptical about it. I can assure you however that it is very real. There are many manifestations of it but one of the nearest earthly equivalents to one aspect, that you may be able to relate to, is being so deeply in love with someone that there is that funny feeling which appears to come from somewhere near your stomach but which somehow fills you with great joy. I hope that that helps to relate a part of this experience.

All the scriptural study, moral teaching and doing things for other people are part of the journey that follows. It is very important to understand this cause and effect relationship the correct way round, as your misconception is an extremely common one.

For my part, I did not come from a religious family. I did become a christian from philosophical and logical analysis and for many years was an 'intellectual christian'. I am actually paid to write logical algorithms so others clearly consider me rational! I therefore do not consider myself a 'nutter' or 'stupid' as some of the more childish contributors (not you 'Fraggle Rocker'). to this forum would have people believe. Have any of these people ever read books by people like C.S. Lewis? Can any thinking person regard him as a 'nutter' or 'stupid'? Or do these people only read the same puerile diatribes as their own?

To get back to my own christian experience, to whatever degree I considered myself logical and well read, my experience of becoming a real christian came much later and not from the reading, discussion and logic but from honestly talking to God (call it 'prayer' if you like) and I can assure you that there is a very great difference between the two.

This is why anyone can become a christian, and a 'real one' too. You do not have to be an intellectual or a great philosopher or very moral, although you can be any or all of those things. What you must be is honest, with yourself and more importantly with God.

If you want to be really brave and are ready to do it, test out what I have said. Speak to God. You can be honest and say you do not actually believe He exists but if He does exist ask Him to send the Holy Spirit to become part of your life. Be very certain however that that is what you want as this prayer prayed honestly always brings results in my (now several years) experience.




Kind regards,


Gordon.
Click to expand...
 
phlogistician said:
'real', now that is funny?

Real, in what context? In that it's contents were chosen centuries after the fact, and many chapters excluded? Revelations was nearly excluded! Please explain why what made it into the final cut of the KJV Bible made it 'real' and why each Apochryphal chapter was not 'real'.
Click to expand...


The requirements for inclusion into the Canon (not different between translations) were as follows:

(a) apostolic authorship or endorsement; (b) accepted as authoritative by the early church; (c) written by a confirmed prophet of God; and (d) harmonization with uncontested books.

The basis of the present Canon (no apocryphal books) was agreed very early on with the final list agreed by the second century. This was later ratified by the Council of Nicea.

The Jewish apocryphal books were added into the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures) but are not included in the Hebrew list. The Roman Catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox church later chose to include them as scripture. Protestant churches reverted to the original set of books without them, although that is not to say that they are not interesting or useful to read, only that they do not meet the stringent criteria listed.

The so called 'gnostic' gospels were proven by the early church to have been written much later than apostolic times and therefore not by the stated 'authors'. They therefore meet none of the four criteria and have never been included by mainstream christainity. They are of course useful for all manner of fiction and for various cultic beliefs.

The King James Bible has no claim to be any more authoritative than any other translation of an ancient document in historic languages (Hebrew and Koyne Greek) into English and in fact with the accumulated knowledge since, some of the translations have been found to be inaccurate. It does have a nice poetic ring to it but inevitably is quite difficult to understand for those living now (on both sides of the Atlantic). There are more accurate translations (including modern English versions) and also many in modern English paraphrasing (Eugene Peterson's 'The Message' being a particular and deservedly popular example). It is much easier to understand what is being said in these versions in 2006 than in the King James.

As an example here is the beginning of Matthew 3 in the King James:

1In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
5Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

In the New Interntional Version:

1In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea 2and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." 3This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah:
"A voice of one calling in the desert,
'Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.' "[a]
4John's clothes were made of camel's hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey. 5People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. 6Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

and in 'The Message'

1-2 While Jesus was living in the Galilean hills, John, called "the Baptizer," was preaching in the desert country of Judea. His message was simple and austere, like his desert surroundings: "Change your life. God's kingdom is here."
3John and his message were authorized by Isaiah's prophecy:

Thunder in the desert!
Prepare for God's arrival!
Make the road smooth and straight!

4-6John dressed in a camel-hair habit tied at the waist by a leather strap. He lived on a diet of locusts and wild field honey. People poured out of Jerusalem, Judea, and the Jordanian countryside to hear and see him in action. There at the Jordan River those who came to confess their sins were baptized into a changed life.

I hope that this helps.

Kind regards,

Gordon
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top