Is it evil? Is it a conspiracy? Has it improved or made lives of women more harsh? Do women expect the same level of responsiblity as men, or just a little less since they are women? What proof do you have of this? I believe that the movement has been to the detrement of the female, sure they have more rights and equality but they live worse lives, jobs, kids, and lazy husbands. Are women better off now or back before the 70's?
What do you think about Feminism?
- Thread starter nico
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yea, we aught to keep them women where they belong, its for their own good! Get in the kittchen and make me a sammich woman!(this is me being sarcastic)
how can somone think that feminism is a bad thing? Unless your goal its to have some kind of woman-slave to do your domestic chores for you, what is it that a woman cant do that a man can?
how can somone think that feminism is a bad thing? Unless your goal its to have some kind of woman-slave to do your domestic chores for you, what is it that a woman cant do that a man can?
No i support the basic theory behind feminism but it has done bad, for every good there is a bad. Women are more stressed, women are more divided btwn home and work. Sex has become something you can sue for, if a guy says you look pretty it's a law suit. I think that feminism has gone too far, or is leading down that role. Women deserve better then they get but they shouldn't have to choose.
what choice are you refering to? I also higly doubt that you could prove that women are more stressed, maybe people in general are more stressed, but maybe an impression like that is just due to the fact that our lives now seem a lot more stressed than the passed because its going on NOW and we care more about it than past stress.
woman are torn between work and home? are men, or do men have no domestic responcibilitys so who cares about work or home? and i assume this only applys to people raising familys.
nico:
Right. Absolutely sucks for them that they chose to be slaves to consumerism.
It's called responsibility. If you decide to work a job you hate so that you can dress the kids you rarely see in Tommy Hilfiger, you'll get no sympathy here.
Nor does this have anything to do with feminism.
Interesting. I presume you have an example of this happening?
Sexual harassment cases are actually notoriously difficult to win.
Right. Absolutely sucks for them that they chose to be slaves to consumerism.
It's called responsibility. If you decide to work a job you hate so that you can dress the kids you rarely see in Tommy Hilfiger, you'll get no sympathy here.
Nor does this have anything to do with feminism.
Interesting. I presume you have an example of this happening?
Sexual harassment cases are actually notoriously difficult to win.
Until very recently I had a very innaccurate view of the aims of the feminist movement (I probably still do, but less so). I think that any male who feels the need to comment on feminism should learn something about it first.
I'm currently reading "Nattering on the Net" by Dale Spender as part of my masters degree. The things that Ms Spender discusses as important to the feminist movement are wildly different to my previous ideas of the aims of feminism.
I'm currently reading "Nattering on the Net" by Dale Spender as part of my masters degree. The things that Ms Spender discusses as important to the feminist movement are wildly different to my previous ideas of the aims of feminism.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
Way to soon to be asking this question.
Feminism is evolving, so it is a moving target to try to judge.
In the early 1960s it was militant male-bashers saying that women could get along without men and that might be a good thing. In the late 1960s it was free-lovin' hippie chix burnin' their bras and saying we can be just as promiscuous as the boyz. In the 1970s it was intellectual women saying they should have equal opportunity to enter all professions, sports, and other institutions. In the 1980s it was ball-busters again, saying they could be just as macho as the men but this time in the office rather than the bedroom. In the 1990s it was single mothers saying they needed affirmative action in order to achieve parity with men. I'm not sure what its profile is in this decade.
Besides, those were all vastly oversimplified stereotypes anyway, but I think I captured some of the spirit of the movement during those eras.
My point is that we just need to give feminism and feminists more time to see what happens and how whatever happens goes down with both women and men. We've had thousands of years to sort out "masculism." Let's give the women a bit more than a mere half century before expecting a coherent philosophy with results to be proud of.
Your poll needs a third choice: None of the above.
Feminism is evolving, so it is a moving target to try to judge.
In the early 1960s it was militant male-bashers saying that women could get along without men and that might be a good thing. In the late 1960s it was free-lovin' hippie chix burnin' their bras and saying we can be just as promiscuous as the boyz. In the 1970s it was intellectual women saying they should have equal opportunity to enter all professions, sports, and other institutions. In the 1980s it was ball-busters again, saying they could be just as macho as the men but this time in the office rather than the bedroom. In the 1990s it was single mothers saying they needed affirmative action in order to achieve parity with men. I'm not sure what its profile is in this decade.
Besides, those were all vastly oversimplified stereotypes anyway, but I think I captured some of the spirit of the movement during those eras.
My point is that we just need to give feminism and feminists more time to see what happens and how whatever happens goes down with both women and men. We've had thousands of years to sort out "masculism." Let's give the women a bit more than a mere half century before expecting a coherent philosophy with results to be proud of.
Your poll needs a third choice: None of the above.
Depends on what you mean, the social movement? I don't really think it was necissary I think it would have happened even without it. I don't think the feminist culture did really anything.
All things being equal schooling, exsperiance and such would you pay more for a man then a women? There will always be tiny inequalities though thats a given weather it is in men's favor or women's favor dosent concern me at low levels.
The social movment though I think didn't go so well. I don't think I will see most women holding doors open for men in my life time nor do I exspect women to give there seat up for a man. So economically I think women and men are pretty much the same, socially I dunno its up for grabs.
All things being equal schooling, exsperiance and such would you pay more for a man then a women? There will always be tiny inequalities though thats a given weather it is in men's favor or women's favor dosent concern me at low levels.
The social movment though I think didn't go so well. I don't think I will see most women holding doors open for men in my life time nor do I exspect women to give there seat up for a man. So economically I think women and men are pretty much the same, socially I dunno its up for grabs.
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Thaug:
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/796/
Apparently, the average employer doesn't share your rather enlightened views.
At low levels, I'd agree. This, however, is worrisome. What's the current figure, 80 cents to the dollar?
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/796/
Apparently, the average employer doesn't share your rather enlightened views.
At low levels, I'd agree. This, however, is worrisome. What's the current figure, 80 cents to the dollar?
ahem, i always hold doors open for men and women alike.
it was mentioned above that males should learn something about feminism. i would extend the same advice to women. most people are sadly misinformed about feminism and do not understand what it is. i'm definitely not an expert but i did minor in women's studies so i probably know a little more than your average person. i'd be happy to answer any questions or counter any wrong information about it.
the most general basic definition of feminism is the belief in absolute equality between men and women. this does not mean having your cake and eating it to. it means perfect equality, not holding the door for your little woman but she still gets to make as much as you. it means no social/cultural differences. the most modern concept is "feminisms". notice the plural to set it apart from other names. this is pretty much the same thing but instead of just men and women, it specifies equality for all people of all groups.
my own opinion: the problem with reaching this social nirvana is that not everyone is on board. so it becomes necessary to make certain allowances in the interim such as maternity leave to protect pregnant employees in a time when fathers don't make the same sacrifices (they will one day i hope
). just my opinion, but if you're not a complete feminist, you owe at least old fashioned respects like the don't hit girls policy (i think hitting girls is ok for complete feminists).
it was mentioned above that males should learn something about feminism. i would extend the same advice to women. most people are sadly misinformed about feminism and do not understand what it is. i'm definitely not an expert but i did minor in women's studies so i probably know a little more than your average person. i'd be happy to answer any questions or counter any wrong information about it.
the most general basic definition of feminism is the belief in absolute equality between men and women. this does not mean having your cake and eating it to. it means perfect equality, not holding the door for your little woman but she still gets to make as much as you. it means no social/cultural differences. the most modern concept is "feminisms". notice the plural to set it apart from other names. this is pretty much the same thing but instead of just men and women, it specifies equality for all people of all groups.
my own opinion: the problem with reaching this social nirvana is that not everyone is on board. so it becomes necessary to make certain allowances in the interim such as maternity leave to protect pregnant employees in a time when fathers don't make the same sacrifices (they will one day i hope
). just my opinion, but if you're not a complete feminist, you owe at least old fashioned respects like the don't hit girls policy (i think hitting girls is ok for complete feminists).
Bells
Staff member
Feminism fights for the notion of true equality. True equality can only occur when the notions of difference between the sexes are erased. In this I mean that society recognises that men and women are the same in value (that a man is as different to a woman as a woman is as different to a man, ie. the only difference is one that is biological and apart from that, men and women are the same). It is not the notion that a woman can do a man's job as well as a man or vice versa.
While many feminists are always pushing for women's rights, writers such as Catherine MacKinnon point out the obvious fact that women's rights do not materialise out of nowhere but are given to women by men. Therefore, the notion of women's rights and equality are only available to women when men allow them to have it.
It's an interesting thought though when you think about it. Most of the people who are in a position to grant women such rights are usually men. And while I am far from complaining about the little rights that women have (yes we do need them and more), it is something that stays in the back of my mind. True equality, according to writers such as MacKinnon, is a possibility only when society stops being patriarchal. Therefore, women must continue to fight for their rights and hopefully, one day, there wont be a need to fight anymore as it would be only natural that a woman be the same as a man in every sense, except in the biological sense.
While many feminists are always pushing for women's rights, writers such as Catherine MacKinnon point out the obvious fact that women's rights do not materialise out of nowhere but are given to women by men. Therefore, the notion of women's rights and equality are only available to women when men allow them to have it.
It's an interesting thought though when you think about it. Most of the people who are in a position to grant women such rights are usually men. And while I am far from complaining about the little rights that women have (yes we do need them and more), it is something that stays in the back of my mind. True equality, according to writers such as MacKinnon, is a possibility only when society stops being patriarchal. Therefore, women must continue to fight for their rights and hopefully, one day, there wont be a need to fight anymore as it would be only natural that a woman be the same as a man in every sense, except in the biological sense.
I completely agree with the goals of feminism in its original and pure form--gender equality--but what people have made it into is far from that. The name feminism has the connotation of female superiority which pisses most guys off (that's why most male antifeminists exist), but if you can get past the name, it still isn't quite right because many women who call themselves feminists are just looking for a way to be superior to a man or to show that they hate men. In no way does this mean that all feminists are like that, but it has created a series of gender battles to determine the stronger sex, but there is no stronger sex. Feminism does not go over very well with a lot of people because its ideals have become skewed by both men and women. If a group of guys were to create an ideal called masculinism based on promoting gender equality, women would think that men were just trying to be selfish and empower themselves; masculinists would be seen as completely ridiculous by a heel of a lot of women, but men would probably love the idea. I believe in equal rights and I would consider myself a feminist based on that principle, but modern feminism in my opinion is corrupt.
IMO
I think that women represent a segment in society that have been for too long a object of sexual and phyiscal oppression. Feminism is as a ideology divided into many factions, socialist, lesbian, liberal, third world. What I think feminism greatest fault is that it strives to make women into what they are not. Men. We must work in the same lines of work that men do. Construction, military, etc. But women aren't built for that, women are generally more social not physical people. So for women to do things that don't require social but instinct they are less able to react. Women have a different thought process then males. They are more worrisome, more analytical, more hesitant. Also women reach stages in their lives where they aren't stable physically or mentally. I can't imagine a woman in the trenches in WWI. Not because I am a male shovanist pig, but women are to analyitcal of the situation will I die, I can't do this, why am I here? Men asked these questions as well but women obess with these things. They would begin to lose concentration, especially if they aren't able to communicate with all the loud noise.
What Feminism should do is strive for noble female jobs. Things that men can't really do. Like be social workers, or the most important job of all a Mother. What Feminism has done has made the mother (housewife) into something of contempt. She is not advancing herself, she is working so the man get's ahead and she stays home a drifts away into the abyss. In the west IMO women have to really consider job, or child. A child is not something that can be done "part-time" they are expensive, they demand a lot of attention and they are the next generation. Now men should ask these questions but they won't. Let's stay realistic here. The male then has the duty to make sure that the family is fed, and the rest. Granted in today's world there is divorce and low income jobs and single parents. But women should before they have children ask that very crucial question. The thing I fear is that women would mostly choose career.
I think that women represent a segment in society that have been for too long a object of sexual and phyiscal oppression. Feminism is as a ideology divided into many factions, socialist, lesbian, liberal, third world. What I think feminism greatest fault is that it strives to make women into what they are not. Men. We must work in the same lines of work that men do. Construction, military, etc. But women aren't built for that, women are generally more social not physical people. So for women to do things that don't require social but instinct they are less able to react. Women have a different thought process then males. They are more worrisome, more analytical, more hesitant. Also women reach stages in their lives where they aren't stable physically or mentally. I can't imagine a woman in the trenches in WWI. Not because I am a male shovanist pig, but women are to analyitcal of the situation will I die, I can't do this, why am I here? Men asked these questions as well but women obess with these things. They would begin to lose concentration, especially if they aren't able to communicate with all the loud noise.
What Feminism should do is strive for noble female jobs. Things that men can't really do. Like be social workers, or the most important job of all a Mother. What Feminism has done has made the mother (housewife) into something of contempt. She is not advancing herself, she is working so the man get's ahead and she stays home a drifts away into the abyss. In the west IMO women have to really consider job, or child. A child is not something that can be done "part-time" they are expensive, they demand a lot of attention and they are the next generation. Now men should ask these questions but they won't. Let's stay realistic here. The male then has the duty to make sure that the family is fed, and the rest. Granted in today's world there is divorce and low income jobs and single parents. But women should before they have children ask that very crucial question. The thing I fear is that women would mostly choose career.
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Hey Nico
That is a good point that men have strengths that women lack, and the women have strengths that men lack, as with weaknesses, but I think that idea feminism is there to make the same options available to both men and women. I think that there are areas that should be more geared towards the average female or the average male; however, the average is not the individual--an truly equal opportunity in every field is what I believe to be the answer to finding the balance between men and women and the maximum efficiency of humanity.
That is a good point that men have strengths that women lack, and the women have strengths that men lack, as with weaknesses, but I think that idea feminism is there to make the same options available to both men and women. I think that there are areas that should be more geared towards the average female or the average male; however, the average is not the individual--an truly equal opportunity in every field is what I believe to be the answer to finding the balance between men and women and the maximum efficiency of humanity.
I agree but the thing is that women cannot do certain things. Males as well, women can carry guns and go into war but they will not physically be able to handle it. Same with men, they really couldn't handle a J.K class or to handle young children. Women were given a special gift that men lack. Compassion, men really don't have that, (trust me since I am one). Women have that special thing, it's unexplainable. Women have to understand that they are special, different but equal. Not as some Fems believe equal and the same.
Nico,
You generalize and simplify way too much. Your stereotypes between men and women exist because of social conditioning. By believing in them, you contribute. I am not saying that man and woman are the same. But to say that women cannot carry a gun into war or a man cannot be compassionate is ridiculus, though sadly common. Feminism hopes to end some of the very prejudices you proclaim!
You generalize and simplify way too much. Your stereotypes between men and women exist because of social conditioning. By believing in them, you contribute. I am not saying that man and woman are the same. But to say that women cannot carry a gun into war or a man cannot be compassionate is ridiculus, though sadly common. Feminism hopes to end some of the very prejudices you proclaim!
Yes, I think this is because of faulty social conditioning. I would expect more men than women on the frontlines of a war...but there are women there for the US now and they should have the equal opportunity to be there as a man. It should be performance based. As for the male teacher...I do not think this is true but if it were it would be a ridiculus rule as men are just as loving to children as women.