What are the conflicts between atheism and science?

[wynn]

Um, two points:
As far as I'm concerned being atheist isn't "something in particular". It's a stance on a single issue. I'm an "atheist" as far as stamp collecting is concerned and, especially, football (soccer).
But no one (generally) tries to promote stamp collecting (I won't speak about soccer fans!) as a way that "others should subscribe to for the good of... whatever". I've never had stamp collectors knock on my door and tell me if I don't follow their teachings I'll spend eternity in hell. Etc etc.
As for "reactive or defensive" I've already given reasons (excuses?) for the reactive part, and yes some do get defensive. Again because we have been, at various points in our lives, subjected to varying degrees of "harassment".

I used to be quite squeamish about being preached to in one kind or other, I found it to be tantamount to bullying.

But after having read some literature on bullying, I have come to positively consider the idea that bullying can actually be good for one.

E.g.:
Why it's not always bad to be bullied: Learning to fight back helps children mature, says study
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Study-finds-fight-popular.html#ixzz1F0PXZK6k

Bullying can be good for children
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article7133986.ece

 

[SciWriter]

No conflict. Science, going about its business, finds no need for God. Atheists take note of that.

Rav and Spidergoat note that there must be something rather than a lack of anything. I support that, too, and can explain it.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

I think you have me confused with another poster. I don't recall, and can't find, a link that I gave with regard to that.


Wrong. Quite simply, wrong.


Also wrong. On at least two counts.

No I said it was someone else . I did confuse you with someone else and there post. I just didn't make it clear in that last post . My point about books is from my perspective in life . Which is from the fairy tale lyrical sense of song writing. Where words are not as they straight up appear . Where as things like water interpret to other connotations by the structure of dream state languages . So like a phrase " Fly Me to The Moon " has to be considered in the context of the bigger movement and what the artist was trying to convey in the song. So to you it might have no value as a person can't literally fly to the moon, but in the whimsical life of an artist you can fly to the moon and do by the abstracts of our minds.

 

[Dywyddyr]

I used to be quite squeamish about being preached to in one kind or other, I found it to be tantamount to bullying.
But after having read some literature on bullying, I have come to positively consider the idea that bullying can actually be good for one.

I'll read the links (and not dispute the point, at least until I've read them ), but even it weren't bullying it's an uninvited intrusion at the very least.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

What, specifically, leads you to the conclusion that it's "nothing of any substance". What do you have as refutation? Anything? At all?

Yeah, it's pointless, and comes to no conclusion at all.
It seems like some promo for a book.
The people discussing it in the thread, come to no point or conclusion.
In short, it's boring drivel, that answers nothing.
Not even Spider can do it justice.

How's that?

It depends what you mean by "take it as a fact".
As an explanation of what is actually the case?
Or as a possible explanation for what is actually the case?
Or simply a possible explanation of what could be the case?
You'll have to be more specific.

Quit stalling, just answer the question.
Please.

jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Yeah, it's pointless, and comes to no conclusion at all.

So you didn't actually follow my advice?

It seems like some promo for a book.

Or check out all of the links.

The people discussing it in the thread, come to no point or conclusion.
In short, it's boring drivel, that answers nothing.
Not even Spider can do it justice.
How's that?

A big fail. I did specify particularly the links given in the OP. Which you appear to have skimmed over or ignored. Can you refute the mathematics? Why do you consider the maths "pointless"?

Quit stalling, just answer the question.
Please.

So you aren't going to answer any of those questions?
In which case, as I stated, I have no idea what you mean by your question. I cannot answer it as it stands.
And note that is not "will not" it is "cannot". Your question is meaningless.
Presumably you know what you mean, but I have no clue.

 

[SciWriter]

Jan, you are quite surprised and taken aback to find the basis of All is not God (everything), but quite its opposite, an insignificant near nothing like QM fluctuations/uncertainty, with even nothing itself behind that.

That's how off the concept of God is, plus I also disproved Him in the other thread by showing that a Being cannot be fundamental, which is sufficient in itself.

Are you ready for this double whammy? (Not that its even needed)

Amazingly, there are even more disproofs than these, but I never use all of my ammo at once.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

In which case, as I stated, I have no idea what you mean by your question. I cannot answer it as it stands.

Then you shouldn't have responded with that link.
Apart from that "Phlogo the Pogo" responded.
What do think of his response?

And note that is not "will not" it is "cannot". Your question is meaningless.
Presumably you know what you mean, but I have no clue.

It pertains to the idea that the universe just popped into existense all by it self
without the need for a cause.

Keep up lad!

jan.

 

[SciWriter]

Yes, Jan, the universe of whatever the All is called, needed nothing else.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Jan, you are quite surprised and taken aback to find the basis of All is not God (everything), but quite its opposite, an insignificant near nothing like QM fluctuations/uncertainty, with even nothing itself behind that.

That's how off the concept of God is, plus I also disproved Him in the other thread by showing that a Being cannot be fundamental, which is sufficient in itself.

Are you ready for this double whammy? (Not that its even needed)

Amazingly, there are even more disproofs than these, but I never use all of my ammo at once.

Before anything, explain your so-called dis-proof, as it makes no sense to me.

Please stop talking in riddles, and say it straight-out.

thanks
jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Then you shouldn't have responded with that link.

Again your "logic" fails. I gave that link in answer to a question you asked.
Your subsequent question (to me) asked something different.

Apart from that "Phlogo the Pogo" responded.
What do think of his response?

As far as I can see Phlogistician answered a different question of yours. I.e. not the one I gave the links to.

It pertains to the idea that the universe just popped into exisense all by it self without the need for a cause.

Correct.
And your question was "do I take it as fact?". The problem here (and you have simply exacerbated it with your failure to look at all of the links in the OP as requested (leaving you unaware of the actual argument and support put forward) is that your question has multiple possible answers/ meanings. Which you, so far, are unwilling to elucidate.
Oh and you also compounded the problem by using the terminology "without a cause". How did that interpretation arise?

Keep up lad!

Which leaves YOU as the one not keeping up.

 

[SciWriter]

Before anything, explain your so-called dis-proof, as it makes no sense to me.

Jan, I posted several times why beings can't be fundamental, even that "Jan could not answer", for he neglects and avoids in lieu of being able to refute, and so that is still up to you. So, I'll withhold the second disproof until you can address the first.

And, no, "spirit" does not refute, for the hierarchy of mind still holds, no matter what its form is claimed to be. At least deal with the science and the logic of it rather than just making more magical things up as you go along, for anyone can see through that ploy.

 

[Mind Over Matter]

No. I'm asking why do you believe in your god and not the others?

Aren't you ashamed that you're so insecure and paranoid that you can't see a question for what it is or answer it without resorting to ad homs?

One more time:
What makes your book "holy" and not the others?
Why do you not believe in those other gods?

Let's look to the source and origin of the Bible. The founder of our faith, Jesus, didn't give us a book. Jesus gave us a church. The leaders of that infant church were the apostles. Jesus told the apostles, "As the Father has sent me, so I send you." Jn 20:21. How did the Father send Jesus? With all authority on heaven and earth. Jesus conveyed this authority to his apostles, who established His church. The apostles passed on this authority through an unbroken line of apostolic succession and laying on of hands.

Later, in 382 AD, the church proclaimed the canon of scripture. So the Bible gets it's authority from the Catholic Church who received authority from the apostles who received authority from Jesus who received authority from the Father.

Therefore, the Bible is Holy because the Catholic Church pronounced it so. All Christians who hold the Bible as authoritative are in fact acknowledging the authority of the Catholic Church.

The other books were written by men who do not have the same authority. In many cases, the men were self-proclaimed prophets who wrote what they saw or heard. However, they were not given "all authority on heaven and earth" by God Himself, as the apostles were given.

Is that a declaration that you do believe in Zeus or a deflection? I wonder... (not really, but...)


So, simply because someone believes in something it must have some basis in reality?
You obviously haven't read this thread or this thread.


And your criteria for "flaws" in religions other yours would be...?


You're assuming that there actually is a "one true religion" or even a "true religion".


Here again is where you fail. Religions (and religionists) make the claims it is therefore up to them to provide the evidence.
And there is no evidence.

So, what, specifically, made you reject, for example, Zeus and co. or Osiris and co.?
I mean, going from your earlier statements you have, presumably, done extensive reading on both of these topics to "find the flaws".

I can give two very simple qualifiers on logic alone.

1) All religions cannot be right. I'm a geek, so I'm quite aware from my circles that "Pastafarianism" is a satirical take on religions, not an actual faith that people organize together in seriousness.
2) Not all religions have quantifiable history that records facts surrounding a faith, if not actually recording events within the faith itself.Since the internet's a suitable source for you, I provide links to historical figures that support a few Biblical figures of the New Testament, which very, very few other faiths can provide from some other non-scriptural texts.

First, St. Peter,St. Paul, Pontius Pilate.. The list goes on, primarily of people who record first-hand accounts of many events that are also noted in Biblical texts, canonical and non-canonical.

Religion does not require itself to be self-quantifiable as science does, though the two practices go hand in hand in many ways. One believes, or doesn't. Christianity has the greatest historicity supporting its claims.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Let's look to the source and origin of the Bible.

Okay.

How did the Father send Jesus? With all authority on heaven and earth. Jesus conveyed this authority to his apostles, who established His church.

This is as much as I need to read. You're back to the usual circular argument.
Jesus has this authority (to tell us about god) because god said so. And we know god exists because Jesus told us he does. Etc. Etc. Etc.

And then it turns into a bunch of other guys who claim this authority, and declare the book is holy and the word of god because they say so. And they should be believed because their book (which is holy) makes them an (or rather THE) authority.

All Christians who hold the Bible as authoritative are in fact acknowledging the authority of the Catholic Church.

Apart, of course, from those Protestants who will publicly and loudly declare the Pope AND the Catholic Church to be the anti-Christ and the work of the devil. Etc.

I can give two very simple qualifiers on logic alone.
1) All religions cannot be right.

Correct. This is not a qualifier.

2) Not all religions have quantifiable history that records facts surrounding a faith, if not actually recording events within the faith itself.

This is another fail since the "evidence" that these "facts" are facts is the book itself or people who claim authority because that book says they have the authority to declare it "factually correct".

Circular. Circular. Circular. :bawl:

 

[spidergoat]

Let's look to the source and origin of the Bible. ....

Jesus' message was not only that he was God, but they you and I are also God, we just don't realize it yet. The kingdom of heaven is within, and it's true, the secret to happiness is your own brain, nothing supernatural required. But, the apostles did not all achieve the same understanding, and what we are left with as a consequence is a book that sends us in all directions, and mostly the wrong ones. The Roman bishops especially didn't know what the fuck. And that's not unexpected, only a few people get enlightened, there is so much stacked against us to overcome.

 

[drumbeat]

It’s possible that not all atheists have any scientific background or understanding of basic science.

I would appreciate anyone could cite the conflicts between atheism and science, if any. I'm just curious, though.

Of course it's possible that not all atheists have any scientific background. The two are completely unrelated.

Atheism isn't necessarily based upon a persons knowledge of chemistry or physics, it could just be that they've never had a reason to believe or look for a god. It could just be that the have had a think about it and logically it doesn't make sense to them.


Atheism is a non-belief in an abstract thing. Science is the study of many sorts of materials and varies properties that exist. The two are unrelated.

 

[Rav]

I seriously doubt that religion would even exist if the level of scientific knowledge that we have now had always been accessible to us. The closest thing to religion that would exist in such a world would be metaphysical speculation.

 

[James R]

Signal:

The first thing that comes to mind is the confidence that many atheists display, a certainty that they are right and know better than anyone else.

How is this different from the confidence that many theists display? Look at Jan Ardena and lightgigantic and other theists in this thread. Why aren't you commenting on their overconfidence?

Of course those "solid, verifiable foundations" change every few years, and many things in science can be demonstrated to be the result of inside politics for tenure, but who cares about all that, right?

Which things, in particular, can be demonstrated to be the result of inside politics for tenure? Please give one example, and demonstrate it for me.

I find that atheists are often passive, and what is sometimes called "reactive" in psychology. That is, they tend to wait for the theists to assert something, and then they oppose it; instead of being proactive and making the first move.

You mean you find that atheists don't preach and try to convert others as much as theists do? Funny that.


Jan Ardena:

Where is the evidence that suggests things upped and formed themselves?

Where's the evidence that God upped and formed things?

 

[NMSquirrel]

Jesus' message was not only that he was God, but they you and I are also God, we just don't realize it yet. The kingdom of heaven is within, and it's true, the secret to happiness is your own brain, nothing supernatural required. But, the apostles did not all achieve the same understanding, and what we are left with as a consequence is a book that sends us in all directions, and mostly the wrong ones. The Roman bishops especially didn't know what the fuck. And that's not unexpected, only a few people get enlightened, there is so much stacked against us to overcome.

there is only one person stacked against us.

 

[Mind Over Matter]

Okay.


This is as much as I need to read. You're back to the usual circular argument.
Jesus has this authority (to tell us about god) because god said so. And we know god exists because Jesus told us he does. Etc. Etc. Etc.

And then it turns into a bunch of other guys who claim this authority, and declare the book is holy and the word of god because they say so. And they should be believed because their book (which is holy) makes them an (or rather THE) authority.


Apart, of course, from those Protestants who will publicly and loudly declare the Pope AND the Catholic Church to be the anti-Christ and the work of the devil. Etc.


Correct. This is not a qualifier.


This is another fail since the "evidence" that these "facts" are facts is the book itself or people who claim authority because that book says they have the authority to declare it "factually correct".

Circular. Circular. Circular. :bawl:

If you want to be truly empirically rigorous, you have to regard every piece of historical writing as itself an historical artifact crafted by the writer. From there you can attempt to discern clues to actual events that may or may not have actually occurred. You have to ask whether the writer of the text would have had direct access to empirically observe the events described in the text, and if not, what basis would s/he have had for writing what they did. If you take such critical rigor very seriously, you can even get to the point of criticizing the very descriptive language used by (macro)historians. After all, how can they report the general events and outcomes of some macro-event like a war or extended time period as a direct witness of empirical events. They only have access to second-hand reports, and even then they have to synthesize those reports into coherent narratives. So all historiography is ultimately highly-processed derivatives of long-forgotten empirical events. By "empirical events," btw, I mean the empirical interactions between the history-writer and her/his sources, since the empirical experiences of those sources is already lost in the transmission of information from them to the writer. So the best you can really do with ANY historical text is to critically reason about the claims made in the text. You will never be able to establish their basis in fact because the facts are history, so to speak. All you can ask is why the writer may have written what they wrote and what does that say about the writer and the social and material context(s) of that person's life.