Were the Loyalists the true Patriots?

S.A.M.

uniquely dreadful
Valued Senior Member
In many respects the American colonies governed themselves, but as they started to expand, Indian depredations became an increasing problem, obliging Britain to deploy regulars, in order to police this situation and protect the colonist’s homes. Then during the seven-year war (1756-63) the French tried to crush and drive the (non-French) colonists out of America, so Britain had to maintain a force of ten thousand men to defend them, because when the colonists were left to their own devices, they nearly always lost, George Washington was particularly useless, getting himself captured by the French; (it wasn’t until the revolution that he became an outstanding General).

But the burden of protecting the colonists was nearly all being borne by the British taxpayer and protecting them during the seven-year war had added another 150 million pounds ($280,500,000) on top of an already crippling debt incurred while defending Hanover from the French, Austrian, Saxon, Swedish and Russian Alliance.

This deficit was made worse by corruption in the colonies actually causing tax revenue to cost Britain £8000 in order to collect £2000 tax, and this at a rate of only sixpence a year each.

The British had repeatedly tried to get the colonists to pay towards their protection, by introducing various taxes, but all were unpopular.
So after the seven-year war the British had a massive debt with few ways to reduce it, so they had to limit expenditure and as the colonists had been the beneficiaries, it was decided:

1. The settlers were to stop taking more and more Indian land, to limit spiralling defence costs and adding to the debt burden
2. The settlers were to stop murdering the Indians (many of which had helped defeat the French), so as not to upset the only money maker in America, that of trading for Furs
3. They had to stop endemic corruption such as smuggling and bribery, that was costing the exchequer so much money
4. They had to find a way of introducing a tax system that worked to help with the debt burden.


No taxation without representation, the rebels said, but they did have representation through the colonial legislature/governor. and were only being asked to pay one twenty-sixth of the tax that a British tax payer paid, who had and were effectively subsidizing them by bearing the burden of their protection.

The British had also drawn a proclamation line along the Appalachian Mountain peaks, honouring agreements to limit further encroachment onto Indian land and arrest the spiralling cost of protecting the colonists from Indian reprisals.

Therefore those that settled beyond this line were the cause of a lot of problems as not having any money; they just became adept at murdering the Indians in order to take their land. Such people put extra strain and expense onto the British defences and were of course the natural allies of those powerful colonists, such as George Washington who wished to benefit from Indian land speculation.

The rebel leaders or founding fathers (all quasi-atheists e.g. Deists) only represented about 27% of two and quarter million colonists (although they said it was 33%), but even if this was correct they knew they would have never won power through a referendum, so as they possess considerable propaganda skills, they called themselves Patriots, contrived incidents like the so called ' Boston massacre', portrayed their own vested interests as philanthropic ideals, and incited a reign of terror, aimed at civil authorities to disrupt society.

http://www.redcoat.me.uk/

So apparently the British were not only defending the colonists, they were also protecting the natives.

Is this true?
 
The American Revolution was a good lesson for the British government. They realized that distant colonies needed to permitted a degree of self government. As a result when Canadians started rebelling, the concept of dominion status was put into place, so that the Canadians did not feel the necessity of leaving the empire. The Irish question would probably been a lot less problematical if there wasn't the strong anti-catholic position in the government inhibiting home rule in the early nineteenth century.
 
Both were patriots, the Loyalists were patriots to Britain, the Patriots were patriotic toward the newfound flag and future nation
 
SAM said:
So apparently the British were not only defending the colonists, they were also protecting the natives.

Is this true?
Part of the truth. There's more to it.

The British were also, for example, enslaving the Indians and selling them to the Caribbean Island colonial plantations. As well as importing slaves to the American colonies, of course - against the desires of many of the colonists.

The first draft of the Declaration of Independence included "imposition of slavery" among King George's sins, and an early version of the American Constitution IIRC (might have been the Declaration itself, my memory fails me) freed all the slaves and banned slavery in the colonies - despite being a slave owner himself, Jefferson backed it and regretted its failure to pass. It lost by one vote, and that was because one confirmed abolitionist in the convening voters was home sick.

That vote would have ended slavery in the US in 1776.

But on topic:
The rebel leaders or founding fathers (all quasi-atheists e.g. Deists)
There was an important Protestant contingent, best represented by Presbyterians like John Witherspoon. At least one English officer referred to the uprising as a "Scotch Irish Presbyterian" rebellion.

As far as popularity, note that the British were unable to raise an army from the colonists themselves. Like colonial powers everywhere, they found their local enemies mysteriously more competent than their local friends.
 
As far as popularity, note that the British were unable to raise an army from the colonists themselves. Like colonial powers everywhere, they found their local enemies mysteriously more competent than their local friends.

This was not completely true. In the southern colonies (Carolinas and Georgia) the bloodiest fighting was between loyal colonists and rebel colonists, with Indians fighting on both sides.
 
I'd hate to see what taxes would be like today if it didn't happen. (They are actually worse than what the 'mericans previously rebelled 'gainst).
 
The British were also, for example, enslaving the Indians and selling them to the Caribbean Island colonial plantations. As well as importing slaves to the American colonies, of course - against the desires of many of the colonists.
Where’s the evidence for this? You must be getting mixed up with the Spanish; the British didn’t capture Indians to use as slaves, in fact the British applied very little military influence over the colonists, they were there initially to protect them from hostile Indians, then the French and finally the insurgents. Yes the British did transport slaves to the colonies and sold them to colonists, because that is what they wanted and remember who the slaves were (although not an excuse), inter-tribe prisoners who if they didn’t have a value as slaves would have been killed in their endless rivalry.

The first draft of the Declaration of Independence included "imposition of slavery" among King George's sins, and an early version of the American Constitution IIRC (might have been the Declaration itself, my memory fails me) freed all the slaves and banned slavery in the colonies - despite being a slave owner himself, Jefferson backed it and regretted its failure to pass. It lost by one vote, and that was because one confirmed abolitionist in the convening voters was home sick.
That vote would have ended slavery in the US in 1776.

The British abolished slavery in 1807 well before the US who in fact were still importing them when the Royal Navy started to intercept slave ship bound for the US to set them free.

Yes you can tell a shyster, when they say one thing and do another, what matters is what they do and Jefferson, NEVER set his 200 slaves free.

And if this ‘supposed’ vote was so close why did it take another 50 years to set all slaves free.

But on topic: There was an important Protestant contingent, best represented by Presbyterians like John Witherspoon. At least one English officer referred to the uprising as a "Scotch Irish Presbyterian" rebellion.

Presbyterianism was first practiced by John Calvin so as to not have clergy, which is of course very convenient for insurgences, away from any other authority, when they want to make up the rules as they go along, like justifying murdering Loyalists

As far as popularity, note that the British were unable to raise an army from the colonists themselves. Like colonial powers everywhere, they found their local enemies mysteriously more competent than their local friends.


There’s no mystery about, the insurgents burnt down the houses and murdered the families of those who attempted to join the British, it’s the same in Iraq today, the moderate majority are intimated by the insurgents and without the enormous US input and their colossal expenditure the ruthless insurgents would win.
So when you write ‘more competent’ you really mean ‘more ruthless’ in suppressing of local friends who want to maintain an orderly society.
 
2012 said:
; the British didn’t capture Indians to use as slaves, in fact the British applied very little military influence over the colonists, they were there initially to protect them from hostile Indians,
The Brits had been slave raiding up and down the American coast for more than a hundred years - if you read about the Plymouth Bay colonists, for example (the "first Thanksgiving" people) they were befriended by a local Red (Tisquantum, or Squanto, or other names depending) who had been captured by British slave raiders and escaped twice - that's how he had learned to speak English.
2012 said:
Yes the British did transport slaves to the colonies and sold them to colonists, because that is what they wanted and remember who the slaves were
The colonists were the British, and the slaves the British shipped to the British colonies had mostly been captured for the slave market - they weren't just a byproduct of war, they were often the cause of it. The slave trade in Africa was very old, briefly raised to extraordinary scale by the colonization of the New World, and continues to this day in reduced form.
2012 said:
And if this ‘supposed’ vote was so close why did it take another 50 years to set all slaves free.
More like 90 years. You don't get too many chances to change the foundations of a country.
2012 said:
Presbyterianism was first practiced by John Calvin so as to not have clergy, which is of course very convenient for insurgences,
That's John Knox, not John Calvin, and Presbyterians have always had clergy - and long sermons by them.
2012 said:
it’s the same in Iraq today, the moderate majority are intimated by the insurgents and without the enormous US input and their colossal expenditure the ruthless insurgents would win.
So when you write ‘more competent’ you really mean ‘more ruthless’
Always the colonizer's illusion - that the great majority of the locals are simply intimidated by this small ruthless minority.

It never seems to occur to them, what the implications are of the fact that the insurgents are the ones who aren't intimidated by ruthless power.

When your guys are the same people as their guys, living in the same towns, etc, and greatly outnumbering them, why do you have to send thousands of soldiers to have any chance of winning ?
 
Were the patriots of similar origins to the loyalists? What were the differences between the groups?
 
SAM said:
Were the patriots of similar origins to the loyalists?
They tended to be poorer, from dispossessed areas of Great Britain (the Scotch Irish, most notably) or marginalized religions (Quakers, Puritans, notably).

The colonies themselves varied considerably in their makeup - weather and industry were much different north to south, attracting different people, and simple chance grouped - say - the Dutch.

The strongest Loyalist contingent was in the southern plantation colonies.
 
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They tended to be poorer, from dispossessed areas of Great Britain (the Scotch Irish, most notably) or marginalized religions (Quakers, Puritans, notably).

So they had a more vested interest in taking over Indian lands and not paying for their own defence?

Seems like they would prefer to have someone else doing their defence.

So was there no taxation of the colonies after the patriots took over?
 
Certainly not, at my recall. When they saw the secret tax-collectors enforcing their majesties' rule, they joined.

Domination by threat of presenting factual evidence, more was to ensue...

Actions alone often define, beyond the spoken word: 'Believe nothing of what you hear, and 1/2 of what you see..."

In todays' standard', the later is on the order of a fraction of a percent, by the way...
 
Hmm could you elaborate on those points, I could not fathom what any of them referred to
 
SAM said:
So they had a more vested interest in taking over Indian lands and not paying for their own defence?

Seems like they would prefer to have someone else doing their defence.

So was there no taxation of the colonies after the patriots took over?
The disLoyal colonists did not view the British army even, let alone the German mercenaries and various privateers etc, as acting in their "defense".

The colonists were taxed before and after the Revolution. After, they were taxed by their own government in their own interests, rather than to pay large war debts run up by the British Crown (as well as having had to bear the brunt of the fighting in the Seven Years War).
 
rather than to pay large war debts run up by the British Crown (as well as having had to bear the brunt of the fighting in the Seven Years War).

Hmm so they were okay with the British defending them but did not want to share the costs.

How do these qualify as "large war debts"?

This deficit was made worse by corruption in the colonies actually causing tax revenue to cost Britain £8000 in order to collect £2000 tax, and this at a rate of only sixpence a year each.

No taxation without representation, the rebels said, but they did have representation through the colonial legislature/governor. and were only being asked to pay one twenty-sixth of the tax that a British tax payer paid, who had and were effectively subsidizing them by bearing the burden of their protection.

What were they paying after?
 
SAM said:
Hmm so they were okay with the British defending them but did not want to share the costs.
As noted, the colonists were doing the actual fighting, in a war for the benefit of the Crown.

They were defending themselves just fine. And after the Revolution, they had no trouble continuing to defend themselves - even without a good share of the citizenry, money, etc, departed as war refugees.

SAM said:
How do these qualify as "large war debts"?
? The Brits ran up serious debt in the Seven Years War with the French. They wanted to tax the colonists - the same who had done the fighting - to retire it.
 
As noted, the colonists were doing the actual fighting, in a war for the benefit of the Crown.

They were defending themselves just fine. And after the Revolution, they had no trouble continuing to defend themselves - even without a good share of the citizenry, money, etc, departed as war refugees.

? The Brits ran up serious debt in the Seven Years War with the French. They wanted to tax the colonists - the same who had done the fighting - to retire it.

Hmm apparently the colonists needed the British more than the British needed them. Is this wrong?

Then during the seven-year war (1756-63) the French tried to crush and drive the (non-French) colonists out of America, so Britain had to maintain a force of ten thousand men to defend them, because when the colonists were left to their own devices, they nearly always lost, George Washington was particularly useless, getting himself captured by the French; (it wasn’t until the revolution that he became an outstanding General).

But the burden of protecting the colonists was nearly all being borne by the British taxpayer and protecting them during the seven-year war had added another 150 million pounds ($280,500,000) on top of an already crippling debt incurred while defending Hanover from the French, Austrian, Saxon, Swedish and Russian Alliance.
 
SAM said:
Hmm apparently the colonists needed the British more than the British needed them. Is this wrong?
Considering that the colonists did most of the fighting then, and had no trouble after the Revolution despite being weakened by years of civil war, it's clear they didn't need official British protection very much.

Whether the Brits needed them I don't know. They did OK without them.
 
Considering that the colonists did most of the fighting then, and had no trouble after the Revolution despite being weakened by years of civil war, it's clear they didn't need official British protection very much.

Whether the Brits needed them I don't know. They did OK without them.

Hmm I don't know enough about this part of the history. Do you know of any works by loyalists?

How did the status of the native Americans change between the British rule and colonisation? Did they fight with the British or the patriots?
 
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