Well, That Explains It.

[CounslerCoffee]

There is really no such thing as the "innocent" suffering.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t023.html

Well, that sucks. At least they gave me this:

Since "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), there is no one who has the right to freedom from God's wrath on the basis of his own innocence.

Even babies? Yep:

As far as babies are concerned, and others who may be incompetent mentally to distinguish right and wrong, it is clear from both Scripture and universal experience that they are sinners by nature and thus will inevitably become sinners by choice as soon as they are able to do so.

Well, go figure. We are all born sinners! That explains so much. Even something as pure as a baby can be a sinner.

Good news is that it wasn't suppose to be this way:

This "bondage of corruption," with the "whole world groaning and travailing together in pain" (Romans 8:21, 22), is universal, affecting all men and women and children everywhere. God did not create the world this way, and one day will set all things right again. In that day, "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain" (Revelation 21:4).

Im still having a problem with a God that creates faulty beings and then blames them for his own mistakes

With our full faith in God's goodness and in Christ's redemption, we can recognize that our present sufferings can be turned to His glory and our good.

And my Grandpa still got cancer and died. Even though I thought he was a good person.

Your born screwed, we grow up screwed, we do things to even screw ourselves even more... I say screw this. Im going to start having more sex and doing even more drugs!

 

[SpyMoose]

If everyone is a sinner how the hell can we tell? I mean if there is some kind of constant background level of sin that is all around, wouldnt it foul up our sin detecting devices? we would just recalibrate them so that they dont read it and only the things we concider sinful register, we would think our sin detectors (they are very scientific) are broken if they go off at things like a babys laughter, but apparently there is this universal sin level, and somehow they detected it.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by CounslerCoffee
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t023.html

Well, that sucks. At least they gave me this:



Even babies? Yep:



Well, go figure. We are all born sinners! That explains so much. Even something as pure as a baby can be a sinner.

Good news is that it wasn't suppose to be this way:



Im still having a problem with a God that creates faulty beings and then blames them for his own mistakes



And my Grandpa still got cancer and died. Even though I thought he was a good person.

Your born screwed, we grow up screwed, we do things to even screw ourselves even more... I say screw this. Im going to start having more sex and doing even more drugs!

Correct me if i am wrong C.C. but didn't you announce some time ago that you believe in God.

Love

Jan Ardena.

 

[Agent Smith]

Well we are born with sin already so...........

 

[okinrus]

We cannot be guilty of sin that we have not commited, however we can be punished. Ezekiel 18 tells us that we are personally responsible for our sins. So babies are definitly not born guilty of sin. However we are not born in the highest state of grace. We have a fallen nature. But because we are up against a formidable adversary we can show God's glory more so. This is why Paul said, "The law entered in so that transgression might increases but, where sin increased, grace overflowed all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through justification for eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."(Romans 5:20) A diamond against a black background shines more so than against a white background.

 

[Jenyar]

Well, go figure. We are all born sinners! That explains so much. Even something as pure as a baby can be a sinner.

I have brought this question up before: By what standards do you declare a baby pure and innocent? What knowledge have you gained that you are able to judge the state of any human being, adult or infant?

Sin is often described as a state of slavery, or an affliction. For example, when a baby is born with AIDS or nicotine poisoning, who is responsible? One step further, just an inherited genetic defect could make the baby more susceptible to illness. Another step further: was the first form of life "pure"?

The answer is both yes and no. A baby is both "guilty" and innocent, "uncontaminated", but inherently contaminated. On a biological level it comes down to DNA. Morally, it could be the same: we "inherit" the decisions of our parents. Everybody inherits the sin of Adam and Eve.

If we look at the DNA of sin, we learn that it has made everything "susceptible" to death - the "wages of sin is death". So at the same time we have inherited to weakness of sin, while we only carry the guilt for our own sins. We are twice doomed, you might say. As our lives progress, we "take up our share" of the original sin. We prove ourselves to be guilty of it as well.

From a human perspective: people are only innocent when they have not proved their guilt. But God sees where our lives are going - He knows what hearts people will inherit from their parents. But like Jesus healed people from sickness, God healed people from death. Each person must be healed from his own particular afflictions, but what affliction is worse than death?

The principle is the same: we inherit life from God. Eternal life is a gift from God (Rom.6:23), but we must take hold of that gift. When God raised Jesus from death, He broke the hold death had on us, and we are "born again" into eternal life. But you have to be a child of someone in order to inherit from them. While we may all be "children of God", one can only inherit life from His Son. The reason is simply this: no other God has left such a inheritance, not other man has been sent to claim it, and to claim us as His adopted children. You can only inherit a kingdom from its rightful king.

 

[Balerion]

Your born screwed, we grow up screwed, we do things to even screw ourselves even more... I say screw this

Damn right, dude. The logic in this is so circular that no matter what you do, you're not good enough.

We cannot be guilty of sin that we have not commited, however we can be punished.

We can be punished despite not being guilty of sin? Yeah, that's fair.

A diamond against a black background shines more so than against a white background

Basically, what you're saying, is that those whom are good enough (e.g. the "Diamonds") are the few? So basically all the rest of us are here just to make the Diamonds shine? How does that make sense? If God knows were we're going to go with our lives, why would he allow this?

And if God knows exactly what kind of people we are going to be, and what we're going to do, why are we here? Even with free will, he already knows, so what's the point of this? It doesn't make sense, but none of you question it. Except the person who started this thread, that is, and I applaud him. About time he let the brainwashing wear off.

when a baby is born with AIDS or nicotine poisoning, who is responsible?

Are you saying that the baby is responsible?

On a biological level it comes down to DNA.

...Where the hell are you going with this?

Morally, it could be the same: we "inherit" the decisions of our parents.

That is complete bullshit. There is not one thing to indicate that our morals have anything to do with genetics. If that were so, then the parents of a serial killer would be serial killers, as would the children of the killer. But it doesn't work that way.

If we look at the DNA of sin,

The DNA of sin? Do you even know what DNA is?

we learn that it has made everything "susceptible" to death - the "wages of sin is death".

So sin is the reason that trees die? And sin is the reason that ants die? What about birds? Do they die becuase of sin? And why do you put "Susceptible" in quotation marks?

We prove ourselves to be guilty of it as well.

How so? Becuase we learn? That must be it, because Adam and Eve bit the apple and became aware of the things around them. The moral of that story is to obey God, and don't question a thing. Again, is that how we prove ourselves guilty of origional sin?

From a human perspective: people are only innocent when they have not proved their guilt.

Actually, in America, you are innocent until proven guilty.

But God sees where our lives are going - He knows what hearts people will inherit from their parents. But like Jesus healed people from sickness, God healed people from death.

So technically, if God knows everything, why would he go to the trouble of healling people of death? Doesn't he already know he would have to do that? Why not just change his heart before he's born? See, again, none of this adds up.

Each person must be healed from his own particular afflictions, but what affliction is worse than death?

But we may be able to avoid death without God. What do you say to that?

JD

 

[Jenyar]

Are you saying that the baby is responsible?

No. Are you saying the parents have nothing to do with it?

: On a biological level it comes down to DNA.
...Where the hell are you going with this?

DNA from the parents are carried over to the baby - that is what makes it theirs. That is how parentage is proved when there is a question about it.

(Morally, it could be the same: we "inherit" the decisions of our parents.)
That is complete bullshit. There is not one thing to indicate that our morals have anything to do with genetics. If that were so, then the parents of a serial killer would be serial killers, as would the children of the killer. But it doesn't work that way.

You lost the thread of my reasoning: They make moral choices, the children have to live with the consequences. We can't control those consequences or even judge their real effects. It is passed on implicitly or indirectly.

(If we look at the DNA of sin,)
The DNA of sin? Do you even know what DNA is?

As in "that which gets carried over from parents to child", and gives it its form. It is what is passed on explicitly or directly.

(...we learn that it has made everything "susceptible" to death - the "wages of sin is death". )
So sin is the reason that trees die? And sin is the reason that ants die? What about birds? Do they die becuase of sin? And why do you put "Susceptible" in quotation marks?

In broad terms yes - unless you can show me any form of life that does not contain the "DNA" of death. Death is not automatic - it depends on how you live: what you eat, how much you eat, how you take care of yourself. That is why I use the word "susceptible". It's an inclination. Science calls it entropy.

(We prove ourselves to be guilty of it as well.)
How so? Becuase we learn? That must be it, because Adam and Eve bit the apple and became aware of the things around them. The moral of that story is to obey God, and don't question a thing. Again, is that how we prove ourselves guilty of origional sin?

Yes, we learn how to kill, how to lie, how to hate - partly it comes naturally, and partly we learn it from those in whose vicinity we grow up in. It manifests directly and indirectly.

Actually, in America, you are innocent until proven guilty.

i.e. When they (or someone else) "have proved their guilt". I'm emphasizing that guilt may be hidden until it is brought into the open. Not seeing guilt does not mean it's not there - it only means it hasn't been exposed yet. Laws have the function of exposing guilt. The commandments have the function of exposing guilt of sin.

So technically, if God knows everything, why would he go to the trouble of healling people of death? Doesn't he already know he would have to do that? Why not just change his heart before he's born? See, again, none of this adds up.

God changed the end result. He provided forgiveness for sins and deliverance from death - He provided Jesus to die in our place. He has not taken away our humanity or our situation. That goes against the nature of his creation. We can only see what hearts we were born with in retrospect, depending on how we lived. If you are unsure, at least you know one thing for certain: it was definitely susceptible to death. If it was set in stone, our freedom would have been taken away (and you would have had a problem with that for sure). With the freedom of choice comes the burden of decision. And choices do "add up", that's what I've been trying to say. God would not have had to go to the trouble if we lived the way He created us to live. But it is significant that He does go to the trouble.

But we may be able to avoid death without God. What do you say to that?

Then may you live happily until the earth itself dies. The only catch is that Jesus said he would come again - with God's authority to judge over those who are dead and those who are still alive.