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Gil Weinstein.
www.yadvashem.org
http://anat.iwebland.com/HolocaustRemembranceDay.htm
See the images.
Bye,
Gil Weinstein.
We musn't forget it.................................
- Thread starter Gil_W
- Start date
Depends on perspective, I suppose
Hitler targeted the Jews specifically, to the tune of millions of dead, and other ethnic and religious horrors only pale in comparison to such. Also under Hitler were Catholics and Gypsies persecuted and murdered.
The case of Stalin, however, is different in circumstance. Stalin's purges were not nearly so focused. If you behaved deviantly, you were targeted. A great reflection on such ideology can be found in Arthur Koestler's Darkness at Noon. Much has been made in the past at Sciforums, in fact, regarding whether or not Stalin's purges were atheist-coordinated holocausts against Christians, a thesis that used to be repeated here but was never demonstrated credibly, and that perhaps because such idea has little or no credibility outside Christian-supremacist apologism.
A more modern way of looking at the difference can be found in debates over the merits of the classification of hate crimes. Many people argue against hate-crime statutes on the grounds that "all crimes are the same". And, in one respect, this is true. But if I go out in a bad mood and get in a fight and beat you badly for no reason, this is obviously a crime. But what if I further pick you out as a discriminated target because you look Jewish, or I think you're gay? Why was the last guy not an appropriate target? In one case, it's a crime. In another, I am specifically selecting you in a discriminatory manner. So while Stalin executed and persecuted many in the name of the party, his persecution knew no discrimination in the sense of the Nazi holocaust against the Jews. Where Stalin persecuted religions, it was because the religions interfered with his idea of the state. I could stand up under any given regime and give them justification according to their paranoia by working against the state. These conflicts would eventually license (in the regime's mind) my arrest and destruction. But the Jews were selected for the crime of being Jewish, a crime that most of the world has held them responsible for over the years. What did Hitler say? That Jews controlled too much money? This is symptomatic of a time when Jews in Europe were not allowed to own property and thus survived by, essentially, working with money. It is, in fact, part of the stereotype about Jews and money. Had the Jews been allowed to be equally as wretched as the next group, this situation may not have come about. But cultures have always demanded a particular degree of increased wretchedness of the Jews, and Hitler exploited those millions for a political cause that was rooted in stereotype and paranoia, and aimed at increasing his power. It's sort of a comparison: The Jews are bad because we say they're ruining society versus The dissenters in general are bad because they are interfering with our agenda. In either case, it's wrong. But we remember the Jews specifically because it was so pointedly specific.
Many people are murdered in the United States day in and day out, but when a man is beaten and tied to the back of a pickup truck and dragged along a road until he's dead for the simple crime of being black, or when a man is bound and beaten and left to die for the simple crime of being gay, we notice.
A crime of passion? Does it matter that you're black or Jewish or whatever if you happen to be sleeping with my wife, for instance, and I'm simply that much of an idiot that I can't figure out anything other than to hurt you?
But what happens if you're not even a factor in my life and the only reason I'm killing you is because your nose makes me think you might be Jewish, and since you're obviously Jewish, you need to be exterminated?
Therein lies the difference, or so I assert.
thanx much,
Tiassa
(PS on edit: It is worth pointing out, for scale, that Jon Stewart, host of The Daily Show once recounted that his aunt pressed him about the fact that he seemed to live without his Judaism. It's important, she advised, because "there are only 13 million of us left in the world." Perhaps it seems like an abstract point, but when the most commonly-accepted casualty count of the holocaust equals nearly half the surviving Jewish population .... Just a point for thought.)
It depends on perspective, I suppose. Not, that is, whether we have such events, but the justifications for why we don't. Presently, the two most recognized groups that suffered under the Nazis are Jews and homosexuals. This despite the fact that not even Hitler was of the master race (wrong color hair & eyes) and rumors and evidence of homosexuality among the Nazi leadership.
Hitler targeted the Jews specifically, to the tune of millions of dead, and other ethnic and religious horrors only pale in comparison to such. Also under Hitler were Catholics and Gypsies persecuted and murdered.
The case of Stalin, however, is different in circumstance. Stalin's purges were not nearly so focused. If you behaved deviantly, you were targeted. A great reflection on such ideology can be found in Arthur Koestler's Darkness at Noon. Much has been made in the past at Sciforums, in fact, regarding whether or not Stalin's purges were atheist-coordinated holocausts against Christians, a thesis that used to be repeated here but was never demonstrated credibly, and that perhaps because such idea has little or no credibility outside Christian-supremacist apologism.
A more modern way of looking at the difference can be found in debates over the merits of the classification of hate crimes. Many people argue against hate-crime statutes on the grounds that "all crimes are the same". And, in one respect, this is true. But if I go out in a bad mood and get in a fight and beat you badly for no reason, this is obviously a crime. But what if I further pick you out as a discriminated target because you look Jewish, or I think you're gay? Why was the last guy not an appropriate target? In one case, it's a crime. In another, I am specifically selecting you in a discriminatory manner. So while Stalin executed and persecuted many in the name of the party, his persecution knew no discrimination in the sense of the Nazi holocaust against the Jews. Where Stalin persecuted religions, it was because the religions interfered with his idea of the state. I could stand up under any given regime and give them justification according to their paranoia by working against the state. These conflicts would eventually license (in the regime's mind) my arrest and destruction. But the Jews were selected for the crime of being Jewish, a crime that most of the world has held them responsible for over the years. What did Hitler say? That Jews controlled too much money? This is symptomatic of a time when Jews in Europe were not allowed to own property and thus survived by, essentially, working with money. It is, in fact, part of the stereotype about Jews and money. Had the Jews been allowed to be equally as wretched as the next group, this situation may not have come about. But cultures have always demanded a particular degree of increased wretchedness of the Jews, and Hitler exploited those millions for a political cause that was rooted in stereotype and paranoia, and aimed at increasing his power. It's sort of a comparison: The Jews are bad because we say they're ruining society versus The dissenters in general are bad because they are interfering with our agenda. In either case, it's wrong. But we remember the Jews specifically because it was so pointedly specific.
Many people are murdered in the United States day in and day out, but when a man is beaten and tied to the back of a pickup truck and dragged along a road until he's dead for the simple crime of being black, or when a man is bound and beaten and left to die for the simple crime of being gay, we notice.
A crime of passion? Does it matter that you're black or Jewish or whatever if you happen to be sleeping with my wife, for instance, and I'm simply that much of an idiot that I can't figure out anything other than to hurt you?
But what happens if you're not even a factor in my life and the only reason I'm killing you is because your nose makes me think you might be Jewish, and since you're obviously Jewish, you need to be exterminated?
Therein lies the difference, or so I assert.
thanx much,
Tiassa
(PS on edit: It is worth pointing out, for scale, that Jon Stewart, host of The Daily Show once recounted that his aunt pressed him about the fact that he seemed to live without his Judaism. It's important, she advised, because "there are only 13 million of us left in the world." Perhaps it seems like an abstract point, but when the most commonly-accepted casualty count of the holocaust equals nearly half the surviving Jewish population .... Just a point for thought.)
And the big messes made by Polt Pot and Idi Amin? Really, it would be worth a world wide week for peopel to sit around and think about these things. Hitler didn't kill six million Jews, he killed six million HUMANS, of many "types". Also nine million German soldiers died in that conflict. The Peoples' Revolution in China, I can't recall how many that killed. World War One almost wiped out a generation in Europe. This crap happens far too often. I don't really give a damn about which specific groups or whatever are involved, it's all sick crap.
Tiassa: Hitler targeted Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies, communists, teachers, any other political dissidents, Germans of mixed blood, and many others. The Jewish population of Germany in the mid-1930s, according to a census I read about a year ago when researching these things, was only about 500,000; that, and Germany being one of the most densely populated states in the region. I doubt they imported 5.5 million Jews in five years. On the other hand, I would not be surprised if either the census was doctored and wrong, or if they simply expanded their definitions during the war. But then that's hardly what matters. The important point is that people died when they should not have, regardless of racial/religious background. Personally, I'm just as upset about the 9 million German soldiers who died.
And also twenty-million Russians died in WWII. War is war. Did anyone arm up six-million Jews, even inadequately, and let them make a stand? It didn't happen that way.
Picture Amadou Diallo, for a moment. Well, not a problem because you might not recognize the name down in Oz. But consider for a moment Taliban or al Qaeda fighters nestled into their hideaways, armed and fighting back. Now picture the New York Police Department coming up to your door, and shooting you forty-one times at point-blank range (missing seven rounds) for absolutely nothing. In the modern day, we excuse the police officers because they're frightened and too stupid to realize that the guy's ID isn't glued to his forehead. (They said Diallo was reaching for something; yeah, he was reaching for his ID after the cops asked him for it.) What was their presumption of his guilt? That they were serving a warrant (on the wrong house and the wrong person) and he was an ethnic minority. White people do not get shot forty-one times in New York for doing what the police ask. The people threw a fit, Rudy Giuliani made excuses, and so forth.
Now imagine that the police come for six million Amadou Diallos. And imagine that they are not even asking for ID, but just shooting as soon as they see you.
Warfare is warfare. If we are to compare war numbers to holocaust numbers ... warfare is warfare and such direct persecution of the holocaust is even more unacceptable.
In terms of Pol Pot and others, we have to start looking at our own consciences. Perhaps not Australia, but thinking in terms of the United States, you'll notice Pol Pot was over and dying before we moved to do anything effective. You'll notice that it was only as Pinochet was sick and dying that the "free world" finally went after him. Idi Amin, Haile Selasse, and others--around that part of the world, Americans at least don't seem to care. This hardly makes it right, but take a look at how perspectives are changing. Comparatively, what happened in the former Yugoslavia is relatively minor, but nonetheless the feeling is that the Americans were late to the conflict, and people are not prepared to accept these things.
Would they be prepared to accept such things had they not the constant reminders of the terrible nature of human beings, warfare, and holocaust? If the Jews survive a thousand more years without someone finally wiping out the tradition, will their holy books tell of the Holocaust the way scripture describes exile? What will humanity have learned after all that time to consider the events of the past? What will humanity not have learned if we simply forget it ever happened?
Or so says my two cents.
thanx much,
Tiassa
Tiassa,
It's an odd thing. People get upset when the USA (or other countries for that matter, but I'll use the Big Bad USA as an example) interferes in external matters. It annoys me sometimes too. One one hand I like the idea of nations being able to conduct their own affairs wihtout outside interference. On the other hand I don't like the idea of nations at all. And if I see my neighbour beating his wife, I think I have the right to go kick his nuts in. I've been trying for a very long time to figure out precisely how the balance should work between our individual freedoms and our duty to protect other people. It's not easy. It may be a grey area, but I tend to think there are some things that are wrong and clearly warrant intervention. Such as killing millions of people as Stalin and Hitler and others did.
And you know what really annoys me? Idi Amin is still living comfortably in Saudi Arabia, as far as I'm aware.
It's an odd thing. People get upset when the USA (or other countries for that matter, but I'll use the Big Bad USA as an example) interferes in external matters. It annoys me sometimes too. One one hand I like the idea of nations being able to conduct their own affairs wihtout outside interference. On the other hand I don't like the idea of nations at all. And if I see my neighbour beating his wife, I think I have the right to go kick his nuts in. I've been trying for a very long time to figure out precisely how the balance should work between our individual freedoms and our duty to protect other people. It's not easy. It may be a grey area, but I tend to think there are some things that are wrong and clearly warrant intervention. Such as killing millions of people as Stalin and Hitler and others did.
And you know what really annoys me? Idi Amin is still living comfortably in Saudi Arabia, as far as I'm aware.
I say we start interfeering when large things are happening that are the detrimental to the peopleand opposite to the wish of the people.
About the Holocaust though, I still hold my point. I'm Jewish and I still hold this point.
I find it interesting that humans will segregate themselves when it proves to their benefit. A human being is a human being, plain and simple.
Did Stalin give the men he killed arms? Did he go to the 'enemy of the state's guns and fight it out with them? Did not Hitler inprison and torture Jews, Commies and homosexuals precisely because they were an 'enemy of the Germany society/people'??? As I recall, Hitler saw Jews and Commies as destroyers of the master race and master culture and called them enemies of the Aryan race.
About the Holocaust though, I still hold my point. I'm Jewish and I still hold this point.
I find it interesting that humans will segregate themselves when it proves to their benefit. A human being is a human being, plain and simple.
Did Stalin give the men he killed arms? Did he go to the 'enemy of the state's guns and fight it out with them? Did not Hitler inprison and torture Jews, Commies and homosexuals precisely because they were an 'enemy of the Germany society/people'??? As I recall, Hitler saw Jews and Commies as destroyers of the master race and master culture and called them enemies of the Aryan race.
The nine million german soldier who fought for NAZI beliefs?????? you feel just as sorry for them
I dont care how they died or what they stood for. If they fought for NAZI beliefs then they deserve a NAZI death. What goes around comes around. What about the people who bravely fought for Jewish rights. Those non-Jewish Northeastern Europeans. Schindler being most notable.
If you arent willing to stand up for what you believe in then you are a coward.
This is why ever single German who fought for Nazi beliefs deserved a cowards death or NAZI death. I dont feel sorry for any last one of them. If I was a german who lived in those times, I certainly wouldnt have stayed, and if I did, out of greed or whatever, then I would've fought for my beliefs, even if it meant getting mutilated and tortured as many of those brave souls did. This worst mistake was to stand for it in the first place. Its worth remembering.
My Grandma lived in those times, in Austria. When she was only a child. Everybody treated her like dirt, she was extremely malnourished. When she went to school the other kids stole what luch she had, spat on her, beat her up. They knew she was Jewish. This was making poison, they loved it. If she tried to fight back then she would have almost certainly be sent to a death camp. Unfortunately she didnt have the resources to escape years earlier when the regime was inevitable. Her Jewish traditions where weak because they never got a chance to exersice them. Any moment a German gestapo could walk in the door and blow her cover. She had to pretend to be a catholic.
This isnt to mention the years of harsh fighting she spent living in the surrounding mountains.
Years later, all of her relatives who live there are now catholics. She speaks to none of them now, not because she cut them out of her life, but because they cut her out of their lives for becoming a reinvented Jew. years ago she still associated with one of her brothers, but after a short period of cold conservation (no apparent reason) his phone number dissapeared as did his email. She couldnt find him, and that was that.
In a way hitler was succesful with many of them. Huge amounts of Austrians are grossly antisemetic, although not by their standards. Only half of them voted for reparations after the war. Even X-Jews are now antisemetic. But I'm proud to say I'm Jewish, and I'll never forget those horrible times. I see people are already forgetting these times. Maybe you have to meet one of these people face to face in order to realize what really happened. There was a huge difference between the holocaust and any other regime, or war.
I dont care how they died or what they stood for. If they fought for NAZI beliefs then they deserve a NAZI death. What goes around comes around. What about the people who bravely fought for Jewish rights. Those non-Jewish Northeastern Europeans. Schindler being most notable.
If you arent willing to stand up for what you believe in then you are a coward.
This is why ever single German who fought for Nazi beliefs deserved a cowards death or NAZI death. I dont feel sorry for any last one of them. If I was a german who lived in those times, I certainly wouldnt have stayed, and if I did, out of greed or whatever, then I would've fought for my beliefs, even if it meant getting mutilated and tortured as many of those brave souls did. This worst mistake was to stand for it in the first place. Its worth remembering.
My Grandma lived in those times, in Austria. When she was only a child. Everybody treated her like dirt, she was extremely malnourished. When she went to school the other kids stole what luch she had, spat on her, beat her up. They knew she was Jewish. This was making poison, they loved it. If she tried to fight back then she would have almost certainly be sent to a death camp. Unfortunately she didnt have the resources to escape years earlier when the regime was inevitable. Her Jewish traditions where weak because they never got a chance to exersice them. Any moment a German gestapo could walk in the door and blow her cover. She had to pretend to be a catholic.
This isnt to mention the years of harsh fighting she spent living in the surrounding mountains.
Years later, all of her relatives who live there are now catholics. She speaks to none of them now, not because she cut them out of her life, but because they cut her out of their lives for becoming a reinvented Jew. years ago she still associated with one of her brothers, but after a short period of cold conservation (no apparent reason) his phone number dissapeared as did his email. She couldnt find him, and that was that.
In a way hitler was succesful with many of them. Huge amounts of Austrians are grossly antisemetic, although not by their standards. Only half of them voted for reparations after the war. Even X-Jews are now antisemetic. But I'm proud to say I'm Jewish, and I'll never forget those horrible times. I see people are already forgetting these times. Maybe you have to meet one of these people face to face in order to realize what really happened. There was a huge difference between the holocaust and any other regime, or war.
Elbaz
Not all of those Germans believed in the NAZI propaganda bollocks. Some undoubtedly did. Many were just young kids dragged into war. And even those who believed all that crap, I don't like them being killed like that. So what if they have odd beliefs? I don't give a damn. I'm quite happy for people to believe odd things. As long as they don't screw over other people for it. Which is what they did, unfortunately. But I still don't like them being dead.
I don't see how it can be a good thing at all that so many Germans died.
Not all of those Germans believed in the NAZI propaganda bollocks. Some undoubtedly did. Many were just young kids dragged into war. And even those who believed all that crap, I don't like them being killed like that. So what if they have odd beliefs? I don't give a damn. I'm quite happy for people to believe odd things. As long as they don't screw over other people for it. Which is what they did, unfortunately. But I still don't like them being dead.
I don't see how it can be a good thing at all that so many Germans died.
Just to let you know, for the majority of the solidiers, they did not believe in Nazi ideals.
In fact, most people in Germany at the time didn't. The ones who did were those who went through the school systems after 1933. The people of Germany wanted a better economy and social structure. Fascism offered that to them.
If you read the history you'll notice just how close we came to being fascist or communist solely for the economic stability it offered.
In fact, most people in Germany at the time didn't. The ones who did were those who went through the school systems after 1933. The people of Germany wanted a better economy and social structure. Fascism offered that to them.
If you read the history you'll notice just how close we came to being fascist or communist solely for the economic stability it offered.
I'm an athiest, one maternal grandparent killed, another more distant survived. If I must justify my stance....
It's not worse. Jews suffered the worst, statistically, but many, many other groups did as well. I don't think we should separate survivors into groups.
That said, I am all for remembering the Jews who were murdered. It may not help us to remember, it may not prevent another Rwanda, but it might help.
Elbaz: It's not quite that simple. What about the American soldiers who fought in Veitnam? Or the Soviet soldiers who fought in Finland?
On an emotional level, I agree with you. But I can see how a person might fight for the Nazis.
It's not worse. Jews suffered the worst, statistically, but many, many other groups did as well. I don't think we should separate survivors into groups.
That said, I am all for remembering the Jews who were murdered. It may not help us to remember, it may not prevent another Rwanda, but it might help.
Elbaz: It's not quite that simple. What about the American soldiers who fought in Veitnam? Or the Soviet soldiers who fought in Finland?
On an emotional level, I agree with you. But I can see how a person might fight for the Nazis.
Exactly my point, Tyler.
I can see how a person might fight for the Nazis. I really can.
The difference between an American or British appeaser and a Nazi soldier, between a German soldier who fought 'for Germany' and a German soldier who fought for Nazism is rather blurry. Who is more morally culpable? Do they all deserve to die?
I can see how a person might fight for the Nazis. I really can.
The difference between an American or British appeaser and a Nazi soldier, between a German soldier who fought 'for Germany' and a German soldier who fought for Nazism is rather blurry. Who is more morally culpable? Do they all deserve to die?
I think we should also take this opportunity to remember the mass suicides at Masada, the innocent civilians slaughtered by Jewish soldiers at a temple in or near Jerusalem and the Greeks killed after in a 3-year geurilla campaign, a slaughter Jewish people celebrate each year at Hannuka. It's very odd that nobody these days ever mentions the atrocities committed by Jews. I guess it's just not politically correct any more. True, every race/religion/other-group has done bad stuff, but most of us don't celebrate it. That's disgusting.
But then I also dislike the skin-head punks who celebrate WW2. They need a kick to the nuts. Which is worse? Punks getting drunk on the weekend in Mum's basement and celebrating WW2? Or an entire culture with an institutionalised celebration of a slaughter?
But then I also dislike the skin-head punks who celebrate WW2. They need a kick to the nuts. Which is worse? Punks getting drunk on the weekend in Mum's basement and celebrating WW2? Or an entire culture with an institutionalised celebration of a slaughter?
Piffle. Not only as a German might you have turned a blind eye, but even as a Jew you might have joined the Jüdische Ordnungsdienst, openly patrolling the ghettos as a Nazi collaborationist.
No offense intended, but you cannot even make an educated guess as to how you would have reacted. You are making that statement based on your current world-view and the events that have shaped your personality to-date. Quite possibly, if the you of today was somehow transported to 1940's Germany, you would have the moral fiber to make a stand. If, however, you were raised there, it is ridiculous for you to think you know how you would have reacted.
Peace.
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