Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?

Greatest I am

Greatest I am

Valued Senior Member
Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?

[video=youtube;FbJ6qVsu_MU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbJ6qVsu_MU[/video]

I have always had a problem with the notion that God would have hardened Pharaoh’s soft heart and pave the way for him to kill/murder the first born of Egypt. For God to do so would have been evil indeed.

Do you think that science has explained the purported miracles as natural phenomena?

From what I can see, the Jews who wrote the story did not take it literally.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

Should Christians recognize the O T stories as natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?

Regards
DL
 
Greatest I am said:
Was the Exodus natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?

[video=youtube;FbJ6qVsu_MU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbJ6qVsu_MU[/video]

I have always had a problem with the notion that God would have hardened Pharaoh’s soft heart and pave the way for him to kill/murder the first born of Egypt. For God to do so would have been evil indeed.

Do you think that science has explained the purported miracles as natural phenomena?

From what I can see, the Jews who wrote the story did not take it literally.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

Should Christians recognize the O T stories as natural or supernatural, fact or fiction?

Regards
DL
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I watched the whole story and I am grateful to you for posting it.

" I have always had a problem with the notion that God would have hardened Pharaoh’s soft heart and pave the way for him to kill/murder the first born of Egypt. For God to do so would have been evil indeed. " Is not to us to pass a judgment on God We are only a part of His creation. I can agree with the explanation , specially the Santorini eruption and possible effects
 
Wiki on The Exodus

A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence which can be directly related to the Exodus captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness, and most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit"
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Debunking "The Exodus Decoded"

The Exodus Decoded is similar to The Da Vinci Code in that disparate pieces of information from the past are brought together in a story line. There is a big difference between the two, however. The Exodus Decoded is presented as factual history, whereas The Da Vinci Code is advertised as a novel. The exhibits of The Exodus Decoded do not stand up to scrutiny in the court of objective scholarship. Archaeological data are wrenched from their chronological contexts and forced into a different time frame to fit the filmmaker’s reconstruction. What is more, the film is replete with factual errors. Although the production is offered as a serious and accurate documentary, it is not accurate and it cannot be taken seriously. There is little of substance in The Exodus Decoded for those seeking valid historical and archaeological information on the Exodus.
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arauca said:
Is not to us to pass a judgment on God We are only a part of His creation. I can agree with the explanation , specially the Santorini eruption and possible effects
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It's a valid question though, why God twisted the pharoah's free will in order to make the story work.

As for the eruption being a cause, you might read the second link I list and how the time table doesn't work.
 
Rhaedas said:
Wiki on The Exodus



Debunking "The Exodus Decoded"





It's a valid question though, why God twisted the pharoah's free will in order to make the story work.

As for the eruption being a cause, you might read the second link I list and how the time table doesn't work.
Click to expand...

I am not going to speak for God. We actually don't have the whole information , nor we know if the translation was not mengeled .
I have seen information on ash from Santornini in Egypt at that time I was relating it to the 7 years of bad crops in Egypt during Josephs administration. I don't know if you have seen the presentation , for me is an eye opener for further thinking . History tells us the was a so called invasion of Hyksus culture and later they were expelled.
 
arauca said:
I am not going to speak for God. We actually don't have the whole information , nor we know if the translation was not mengeled .
Click to expand...

That's true...but then if you apply that logic maybe the rest is suspect as well. It could indeed just be a story, loosely based on some partial facts.

I have seen information on ash from Santornini in Egypt at that time I was relating it to the 7 years of bad crops in Egypt during Josephs administration. I don't know if you have seen the presentation , for me is an eye opener for further thinking . History tells us the was a so called invasion of Hyksus culture and later they were expelled.
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I don't know enough about the history to fact check the fact checking, but the issue seems to be when the layer of ash is deposited doesn't match up to the dates needed archaeologically. It comes afterwards I believe.
 
The exodus myth is actually one of the leading reasons why one can dismiss the bible as anything more than Christian mythology. The story, as told in the Bible does not hold up historically. If it happened, then the myth in Genesis was greatly exaggerated and with much embellishment.

I do find it interesting, however, that the Hyksos expulsion has a few parallels. The people were essentially Canaanites (a fact born out by archaeological investigations of Lower Egypt near the delta where Canaanite architecture and pottery are found). They were eventually expelled by Egyptians back into the Levant. We have evidence of this expulsion and the military activities of Egypt. Yet we cannot find evidence of a single Jew (much less 900,000) wandering the desert of the Sinai Peninsula for 40 years.

It would be no easy task to hide a quarter of that many people. We can find evidence of a few dozen Neolithic hunter-gatherers in the same region, but not a hide or hair of nearly a million wandering Jews. Even assuming they were green-minded ninjas, they still had to have an impact on the environment. They still would have left pottery, hearths, bronze artifacts, or even corprolites. Certainly some where old enough that in 40 years they would have died. Where are the bodies?

No, the exodus myth is likely one built around a losing team that makes themselves out to be the victims. Instead of an invading ethnic group, with pharaohs of their own (they had entire cities and infrastructure in Lower Egypt -i.e. Avaris) that finally pissed off the native Egyptian population in Upper Egypt to the south enough that they were run out, the Canaanite-turned-Hebrew people re-invent themselves as "former slaves" of Egypt who escaped to gain their freedom. This bit of propaganda is easier to sell when trying to keep your people together and form a new society with new religious standards (monotheistic Israelites evolved from polytheistic Canaanites). Sitting around the campfire, you can't very well tell your grandkids that your own dad was run out of Egypt for making too much noise. It sounds a lot better and works more to your advantage to claim your people were set free by your god (relatively new one at that) and that they were "given" the new land from which they were busy "taking" from the current natives in the Levant.

The region remains in turmoil to this day because ninnies believe that crap.
 
SkinWalker said:
The exodus myth is actually one of the leading reasons why one can dismiss the bible as anything more than Christian mythology. The story, as told in the Bible does not hold up historically. If it happened, then the myth in Genesis was greatly exaggerated and with much embellishment.

I do find it interesting, however, that the Hyksos expulsion has a few parallels. The people were essentially Canaanites (a fact born out by archaeological investigations of Lower Egypt near the delta where Canaanite architecture and pottery are found). They were eventually expelled by Egyptians back into the Levant. We have evidence of this expulsion and the military activities of Egypt. Yet we cannot find evidence of a single Jew (much less 900,000) wandering the desert of the Sinai Peninsula for 40 years.

It would be no easy task to hide a quarter of that many people. We can find evidence of a few dozen Neolithic hunter-gatherers in the same region, but not a hide or hair of nearly a million wandering Jews. Even assuming they were green-minded ninjas, they still had to have an impact on the environment. They still would have left pottery, hearths, bronze artifacts, or even corprolites. Certainly some where old enough that in 40 years they would have died. Where are the bodies?

No, the exodus myth is likely one built around a losing team that makes themselves out to be the victims. Instead of an invading ethnic group, with pharaohs of their own (they had entire cities and infrastructure in Lower Egypt -i.e. Avaris) that finally pissed off the native Egyptian population in Upper Egypt to the south enough that they were run out, the Canaanite-turned-Hebrew people re-invent themselves as "former slaves" of Egypt who escaped to gain their freedom. This bit of propaganda is easier to sell when trying to keep your people together and form a new society with new religious standards (monotheistic Israelites evolved from polytheistic Canaanites). Sitting around the campfire, you can't very well tell your grandkids that your own dad was run out of Egypt for making too much noise. It sounds a lot better and works more to your advantage to claim your people were set free by your god (relatively new one at that) and that they were "given" the new land from which they were busy "taking" from the current natives in the Levant.

The region remains in turmoil to this day because ninnies believe that crap.
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Did you watch some of the presentation in the u-tube ? Have you noticed the mount Siane is not in the same place were we normally think ? Could you believe that some have taken a boat and went to Greece ?
 
No, I didn't. It's an hour long pseudo-documentary, and my time is far more valuable than to waste that much of it on Jacobovici. He's a fraudster -a large part of his "investigations" have been revealed to be out-right BS.

However, if you have a particular point you'd like me to comment on (or two, or three), post the time hack from the film here and your thoughts. I'd be happy to give an expert (I'm an archaeologist) assessment.
 
arauca said:
I watched the whole story and I am grateful to you for posting it.

" I have always had a problem with the notion that God would have hardened Pharaoh’s soft heart and pave the way for him to kill/murder the first born of Egypt. For God to do so would have been evil indeed. " Is not to us to pass a judgment on God We are only a part of His creation. I can agree with the explanation , specially the Santorini eruption and possible effects
Click to expand...

I am pleased you found it interesting.

On judging God.
I hear from many that we are not to judge God yet I am always being to that by those who have judged God to be good.
Reciprocity is fair play where I come from yet many use the double standard shown to discourage me from doing what they do just because I comer to a different conclusion than theirs. Quite Unfair that.

Do you agree?

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
Galileo Galilee


Scriptures tell us to --------

"Test all things"
1 Thessalonians. 5:21


To me, that means judge all things.

Regards
DL
 
Greatest I am said:
I am pleased you found it interesting.

On judging God.
I hear from many that we are not to judge God yet I am always being to that by those who have judged God to be good.
Reciprocity is fair play where I come from yet many use the double standard shown to discourage me from doing what they do just because I comer to a different conclusion than theirs. Quite Unfair that.

Do you agree?

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
Galileo Galilee


Scriptures tell us to --------

"Test all things"
1 Thessalonians. 5:21


To me, that means judge all things.

Regards
DL
Click to expand...

I agree with Galileo and 1 Thessalonians. 5:21. but I don't agree with judging God . He is the master chess player I am an individual that is learning to play chess.
 
SkinWalker said:
No, I didn't. It's an hour long pseudo-documentary, and my time is far more valuable than to waste that much of it on Jacobovici. He's a fraudster -a large part of his "investigations" have been revealed to be out-right BS.

However, if you have a particular point you'd like me to comment on (or two, or three), post the time hack from the film here and your thoughts. I'd be happy to give an expert (I'm an archaeologist) assessment.
Click to expand...
Can you be specific on the part that is a fraud .
 
I enjoyed a not serious explanation of the Red Sea parting by Isaac Asimov.

Jews leave Egypt & have a 5-7 day head start on the Egyptian army. Neither the Jews nor the Egyptians would go toward the Red Sea on a journey to Judea. Their route would be between the Mediterranean & the Red Sea.

The Exodus occurs at the time of the volcanic eruption which destroyed much of a Mediterrean island culture. The volcano caused a tsunami which swept the Egytian army into the Red Sea. The Jews were not affected due to being 5-7 days ahead of the Egyptians.

When scouts were sent from Egypt to discover what had happened to the Egyptian army, they were not found. Later, evidence was found indicating that the army drowned in the Red Sea. This led to the myth of the parting of the Red Sea.
 
arauca said:
I agree with Galileo and 1 Thessalonians. 5:21. but I don't agree with judging God . He is the master chess player I am an individual that is learning to play chess.
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You agree that we should judge/test all things but will not jude/test God's ways. Quite the contradiction that but ok.

I have found, unfortunately, that Christians who do not judge/test all things end by calling the good in the bible evil and the evil good. The complete reverse of the usual Jewish and Gnostic take is BTW.

Christians see a fall in Eden. I do not.

Christians see human sacrifice and punishing the innocent instead of the guilty as good. I do not

Christians see God's use of genocide in Noah's day as good. I see it as evil.

I could go on.


Fact is that I have followed the teachings of Jesus as I see them, not as Christians are taught to by their church that does not dare to. I took the good and discarded the evil of those church teachings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y


What are your thoughts on Chritian morality and calling evil good?



If you care to let's suppose that the Exodus story is true history just for here.

Does what God did to the first born after hardening Pharaoh's heart matter to you?

Do you think it was moral to punish the children for what their parents did?

Or is God always doing the moral thing because he owns us and can do whatever he likes, moral or not, from a human to human POV?

IOW, would you exonerate God when you would not exonerate a man?


Regards

DL
 
arauca said:
I agree with Galileo and 1 Thessalonians. 5:21. but I don't agree with judging God . He is the master chess player I am an individual that is learning to play chess.
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Oops. I forgot a comment.

Your last comment is a judgement call is it not?
You have judged God to be a master player so your statement seems to not be factual.

Regards
DL
 
Dinosaur said:
I enjoyed a not serious explanation of the Red Sea parting by Isaac Asimov.

Jews leave Egypt & have a 5-7 day head start on the Egyptian army. Neither the Jews nor the Egyptians would go toward the Red Sea on a journey to Judea. Their route would be between the Mediterranean & the Red Sea.

The Exodus occurs at the time of the volcanic eruption which destroyed much of a Mediterrean island culture. The volcano caused a tsunami which swept the Egytian army into the Red Sea. The Jews were not affected due to being 5-7 days ahead of the Egyptians.

When scouts were sent from Egypt to discover what had happened to the Egyptian army, they were not found. Later, evidence was found indicating that the army drowned in the Red Sea. This led to the myth of the parting of the Red Sea.
Click to expand...


As plausible as any theory and better than believing that a staff can turn into a snake.

Regards
DL
 
Biggest problem of the acceptance of that many people moving through an area is still that there was no sign left of them doing so, where evidence of smaller groups have been found. So either that many Jews left Egypt and moved through the desert and somehow cleaned up after themselves, or the story is an exaggeration or some other group's migration, used for a story's point.
 
Rhaedas said:
Biggest problem of the acceptance of that many people moving through an area is still that there was no sign left of them doing so, where evidence of smaller groups have been found. So either that many Jews left Egypt and moved through the desert and somehow cleaned up after themselves, or the story is an exaggeration or some other group's migration, used for a story's point.
Click to expand...

God had this big super shop-vac you see and. No. Wait. This big elephant. No wait-------

No argument my friend. I just momentarily thought like a Christian.

Regards
DL
 
The Old Testament seems to be the only evidence of enslavement and the exodus. It's probably just another story as are the others. Does anything there depict anything factual?
 
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