Was the crucifiction of his son a Moral act?

Quantum Quack

Quantum Quack

Life's a tease...
Valued Senior Member
This thread is more about the realationship between a Father and his Son.
Do you think inflicting that sort of suffering on your son is a moral act, an act of love or an act of brutality and violence?

Do you believe that God being as clever as he is could only convey his message in this manner and to so few a peoples?

Was God dumbing out or what?
 
QQ,

There is a whole religio-mythological rationale for this. To fully understand it you must spend most of your life analyzing the sacred texts of christianity. To fully appreciate the subtle and deep reasons for this, you must devote many years to theological study.

God's interaction with humanity through the agent of his only son (and his son's subsequent crucifiction) was an act of love, and indeed one of pennance, for god was sorely saddened by the sins of man. God could not simply absolve his creations of the sins that they were guilty. This would violate his own law and judgement. Yet he also could not abandon them. So he sent his son, knowing he would be killed, in order to balance the moral books so to speak. A give-and-take if you will.

Jesus took the sins of the world upon himself for his father. And in so doing, cleansed the world and provided a vessel for all those who came after to lay their sins upon. Thus they could enter the kingdom of heaven cleansed and pure (as the father requires) as long as they accepted Jesus.

Think of Jesus as a sin buffer between man and his creations and God and heaven and you'll get the idea. Jesus is a vessel for the divine absolution of sin.

Or some such nonesense.
 
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BTW,

You cannot rationalize this. Remember, this is part of a much larger reality and plan that to us may seem immoral or silly or inexplicable.

Does a silk worm know its purpose and place in the universe? Can it even concieve of the result of its labors? Let alone the final garment it will be a part of?
 
SuperL thanks for your post.....interesting.....hmmmmm

MY approach to all this is that I feel that religion denigrates that which it worships.
If God was silly enough not to know of other methods and ways of communicating to ALL people and not just a single group his dismay then he is not as clever as a 5 years old child.

For me to believe that God has the intellect of a 5 year old child [ my apologies to all 5 years olds] would be to believe that I was superior to that which created me and presents an awful paradox. One that all Christians have to deal with.

The age of reason has brought with it the ability to apply critical thougth and assessments to most of which touches us and I can not believe for a moment that if God exists he is an entity that is both insane and of a low IQ.

So to me Christianity is an assault on my belief in a superior being [ if such exists.] The story of the crucifiction is a showpiece iof insanity and it is ridiculous to attempt to defend it as being hsne actions of a supposedly omnipotent God wishing nothing but the best for his creation.
There is no excuse for violence, no justification what so ever. With htis in mind I find a lot of the bible is just a way of justifying our violent natures.

By enshrining religion in our culture we are enshrining violence, the very violence we pray every night to see an end to......

However if one takes the view that the bible is a showpiece of moral evolution then we have something of historical worth. IMO
 
QQ,

I think you know my stance on religion. And I agree with you completely.

The problem is, attacking religion (as it deserves to be) the way you are invites the above approach.

How can you judge, a mere human, the motives and intellect of a god that is so powerful that he created the universe?

Now, you may point out that that is completely circular reasoning. And you'd be right. But this is the level of reasoning many theists have. And why you can be forever trapped in this sort of discussion.

It's also the reason the modern world is based on science and becoming moreso every day. We are moving forward after millenia in the darkness of blind faith, and leaving people with the levels of intelligence to construct the above kinds of arguments, behind.
 
superluminal said:
QQ,

I think you know my stance on religion. And I agree with you completely.

The problem is, attacking religion (as it deserves to be) the way you are invites the above approach.

How can you judge, a mere human, the motives and intellect of a god that is so powerful that he created the universe?

Now, you may point out that that is completely circular reasoning. And you'd be right. But this is the level of reasoning many theists have. And why you can be forever trapped in this sort of discussion.

It's also the reason the modern world is based on science and becoming moreso every day. We are moving forward after millenia in the darkness of blind faith, and leaving people with the levels of intelligence to construct the above kinds of arguments, behind.
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SL I do realise you reasons for your first post and that is what I found interesting, as not often will a person present such a counter intuitive display and yet maintain a central postion...open mindedness or fair play comes to mind.

I have often argued in other threads that religion is simply an outcome of paranoia, and I know from my experience in mental health areas that to tell a person he is paranoid only leads to an attempt to justify that paranoia. Fear breeds fear.

When a persons' whole philosophical premise is based on paranoia it is even more scarier to let go of that belief system than to go on believing it.....A void is created if you let go of that which supports your emotional and philosophical life. The voiid is often decried as a lack of faith and yet letting go of the deception or paranoia is actually a great act of faith. Faith that the truth exists independant of or regardless of belief.

To suspend our fearful defense of our fear and stand naked and free in the face of truth takes great courage which peolpe are gradually finding.

South star in another thread has shown this courage and he should be commended for it. The courage to question, to ponder, to look at oneself in the mirror and see who you really are.......very easy to say but very hard to do......
If God existed he would want it no other way, for true belief requires understanding and not just rote.

Better to not belief for true reasons than to believe for false ones. Philosophical fraud, or lying to oneself is probably our greatest deceiver.

If Jesus existed then his only crime was to see just how ugly his world was. "In your face" so to speak and it is little wonder that he was condemmed for doing so as all around him was fear and he showed them their fear and of course they defended themsleves and nailed him to a cross......hasn't got much to do with God and sin etc...... but more to do with paranoia
 
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QQ,

I understand the fear. And I understand how hard it can be. I bristle however at willful stupidity. You can say you believe and that it is a conviction you have and accept it as that and be happy. Have all the faith you can swallow. When you try to present it though as "logical" and "rational" and "scientific", that's when I go ballistic. That's willful stupidity.

QQ:

SL I do realise you reasons for your first post and that is what I found interesting, as not often will a person present such a counter intuitive display and yet maintain a central postion...open mindedness or fair play comes to mind.
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It's called objectivity. Dispassionatly weighing the evidence and coming to the best conclusion that your independent mind can form. I did that long ago and it was a fairly simple conclusion. The implications were very difficult though. I went through an extended period as a young adult, reconciling myself to the fact that there was no afterlife and no god and no real, objective purpose to life. I've been through what these condescending cowards have never experienced. The awakening to the realities of the universe. And the doors that opened for me at that point... Wow! Awesome! There's a whole universe in your head if you free it up.
 
superluminal said:
QQ,

It's called objectivity. Dispassionatly weighing the evidence and coming to the best conclusion that your independent mind can form. I did that long ago and it was a fairly simple conclusion. The implications were very difficult though. I went through an extended period as a young adult, reconciling myself to the fact that there was no afterlife and no god and no real, objective purpose to life. I've been through what these condescending cowards have never experienced. The awakening to the realities of the universe. And the doors that opened for me at that point... Wow! Awesome! There's a whole universe in your head if you free it up.
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I must admit I came to a similar conclusion, however with one difference I refused to close my mind to all possibiities.....an afterlife...uhmmm...I dunno until I know....God...define teh wod "GOD".......the existance of the Soul....define the word "soul"

I probably took the more precarious path I guess in that I allowed for all possibilities and only that reason prevail and realised that I may never know the answer to these questions and that lifes purpose it to discover them.....or die trying.......
 
However one thing I have learned in my many years of introspection is that belief is only fearful speculation and it is only when you refuse to believe you know the truth and actually know the truth that you have managed to rise above paranoia.

The nature of the mind in it's reaction to fear is to speculate. When you believe your speculation you have now got a belief.
Truth or objectivity is only available when you refuse to belief your own speculation [fear driven thinking]

Buddhism has much to offer in this mind game called "speculation"
 
QQ,

Since I don't believe in everlasting torment for not believing in something, I'm not bothered by the question of an afterlife at all. My gut tells me that oblivion awaits us all which I find a rather neutral sort of idea in general. But as you indicated, finding out for sure is a suicide mission... If I die and find conciousness of some sort, then fine. Otherwise, I'll never know I even died! Not too bad a thought? Maybe a little comforting even...
 
The fear of not knowing the truth leads to this speculation
A scientific mind knows the difference between fact and speculation.....well some scientific minds any way...
 
QQ,

However one thing I have learned in my many years of introspection is that belief is only fearful speculation and it is only when you refuse to believe you know the truth and actually know the truth that you have managed to rise above paranoia.

The nature of the mind in it's reaction to fear is to speculate. When you believe your speculation you have now got a belief.
Truth or objectivity is only available when you refuse to belief your own speculation [fear driven thinking]

Buddhism has much to offer in this mind game called "speculation"
Click to expand...

Yes, yes and yes. Nicely put.

I've been a student (a rather poor one) of zen and Buddhist thought for some time now. (my eightfold path is missing a few folds i think... ;) )
 
superluminal said:
QQ,

Since I don't believe in everlasting torment for not believing in something, I'm not bothered by the question of an afterlife at all. My gut tells me that oblivion awaits us all which I find a rather neutral sort of idea in general. But as you indicated, finding out for sure is a suicide mission... If I die and find conciousness of some sort, then fine. Otherwise, I'll never know I even died! Not too bad a thought? Maybe a little comforting even...
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Yes it comes back to that fundamental premise
That Truth stands independant and regardless of belief.
Believe what you want but it wont alter the truth......lie as much as like but the truth waits to be found....sort of thing...
 
superluminal said:
QQ,



Yes, yes and yes. Nicely put.

I've been a student (a rather poor one) of zen and Buddhist thought for some time now. (my eightfold path is missing a few folds i think... ;) )
Click to expand...

"Ahhh" says the wise monk with an empty bowl in his hands and hunger in his belly, "How can something be missing if it isn't there" :D
 
hmmm ..I like that..... [ and I might add I am off to find out what's not missing] Maybe I'll catch a raindrop or two.......
 
Don't get too wet! You'll catch a cold instead! (my 6 year old granddaughter. A natural zen thinker!) :D
 
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