Vengeance and Retribution

wesmorris

Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N
Valued Senior Member
Emotional reactions that incite hate. Okay I get it, blah blah blah.

I see value in the notions generally speaking, as hate is, IMO, a facet of mind designed to ensure one does not forget threats, and to motivate their resolution.

For interpersonal shit, it's all well and good, whatever. I'm not a big fan personally, but whatever works for you I suppoze.

My question is about society.

IMO, when constructing laws and such regarding prohibited behaviors, it's a no brainer that "minimizing risk and maximizing liberty", is what you're shooting for. IMO, vengeance and retribution have no place in the equation when in comes to constructing the laws that maintain society.

IMO, they are distractions from the real goal of minimizing risk (to society and the individual) while maximizing liberty (of the invidual and organizations).

No? Yes?
 
I was following your engagement with the Baron in the capitalism thread, and you made a very good argument, especially considering your ah, opponent.

But could you make such an explicitly pragmatic and utilitarian argument on a topic that is easily emotionally manipulated?
 
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well sure the argument can be made, but of course to be ignored.
 
wesmorris said:
IMO, vengeance and retribution have no place in the equation when in comes to constructing the laws that maintain society.

Without a specified penalty for wrong-doing, what good are laws? Why should anyone give a fuck whether they follow them or not if there's not penalty?

wesmorris said:
...it's a no brainer that "minimizing risk and maximizing liberty", is what you're shooting for.

Agreed. But what ye're trying to do goes against the very nature of the human animal ...which is greed, selfishness, gluttony, revenge, ...not to mention the highly emotional aspects of hate for those that harm us. You just ignore all that ...how?

Baron Max
 
Baron Max said:
Without a specified penalty for wrong-doing, what good are laws? Why should anyone give a fuck whether they follow them or not if there's not penalty?

I suppose this is my fault. I'm really making a semantical point of clarification. Consequences accompany every action, and as I've repeated, society or a government has every right to prescribe certain consequences to actions it deems undesirable. You're calling it "a penalty". I think that's just a bad way to think about it. I prefer to think of it as "consequence". I don't think you see the potentially cold-hearted nature and potential implication of what I'm espousing.

You're presuming a bunch of stuff about what was said, to the point it almost seems you're deliberately misconstruing. The text you quoted said nothing about "eliminating specific penalties".

Agreed. But what ye're trying to do goes against the very nature of the human animal ...which is greed, selfishness, gluttony, revenge, ...not to mention the highly emotional aspects of hate for those that harm us. You just ignore all that ...how?
*sigh*

I haven't ignored it at all baron. I've explained enough now. You can just find me ignorant, that's fine.
 
Yes. Vengeance and retribution are not only distractions from the real goal of minimizing risk while maximizing liberty (truly the goal of any decent society that I'd care to live in), but roadblocks. These behaviors perpetuate cycles of violence and appeal to the basest of human instincts. While I agree that they certainly are inherent and were at one time quite valuable to our survival, they have no place in developing the kind of culture you or I would choose to live in.
 
wesmorris said:
Consequences accompany every action, and as I've repeated, society or a government has every right to prescribe certain consequences to actions it deems undesirable. You're calling it "a penalty". I think that's just a bad way to think about it. I prefer to think of it as "consequence".

Okay, so what's the fuckin' difference? If a society wants to call the "vengence and retribution" something else like "consequences" then what the fuck difference does it make to anyone?

Or, for that matter, lets let the victims and their families think of it as "vengence and retribution" and we'll let the peope who don't have much of an interest call it "consequence" ....what's the difference?

See? I don't know what you're getting at here? You type a lot of words, use a lot of high-sounding, idealistic bullshit, but what exactly are you saying? And if you'd use nice, small words and short, to-the-point sentences, perhaps the "little guys" could understand your argument. Or do you prefer to think of yourself as elite, and thus above the concerns of "the little guy"?

Baron Max
 
superluminal said:
While I agree that they certainly are inherent and were at one time quite valuable to our survival, they have no place in developing the kind of culture you or I would choose to live in.

Aren't you already part and parcel of that very kind of culture? Where do you live Shangri-La?
 
superluminal said:
These behaviors perpetuate cycles of violence...

Do you have any evidence of to support that statement? If so, please provide it ...and not just someone else's opinion, even if he is some hot-shot dick-head sociologist or somesuch crap!

And just for the record, wouldn't you say lienency would become an incentive for criminals to continue their behavior AND for potential criminals to see that the life of crime might pay better than a abiding by the laws?

Baron Max
 
Baron Max said:
But what ye're trying to do goes against the very nature of the human animal ...which is greed, selfishness, gluttony, revenge, ...not to mention the highly emotional aspects of hate for those that harm us. You just ignore all that ...how?
Greed, selfishness, gluttony and revenge are indeed part of our instinctual preprogamming. But as a pack-social species we also have balancing instincts that keep them in check. The survival of the pack depends on it. Primitive human tribes, which are essentially large extended families, are not in constant danger of disintegration from internal turmoil. Their balancing instincts to live harmoniously and cooperatively for the good of the pack prevail and they focus those negative instincts on competing packs.

Civilization is an endless struggle of the elders to teach the youngsters that we live in large packs now and so our survival depends on expanding the range of our positive instincts.

It has prevailed for thousands of years and is robust enough to survive the lack of complete success. I will wager that you, Max, our resident spokesman for our inner caveman, do not manifest the slightest atavistic tendency toward greed, selfishness, gluttony and revenge against the strangers who live five blocks away and share the same roads, against the strangers you line up behind at the grocery store, against the strangers at PTA meetings who want tax money spent on lacrosse equipment instead of a new piano or vice versa. I'll wager that you live in peace and cooperation with at least tens of thousands of people you've never met whom you nonetheless regard as a community, that if one of them steps on your $100 sneaker in a movie theater and fails to apologize you don't feel a primitive urge to exact revenge, that if you see one leaving his car unlocked you'll hail him with a reminder rather than rifling through it for things your children need.

You have successfully evolved your pack-social instincts for harmony and cooperation a full two orders of magnitude beyond that of your Mesolithic ancestors. If I hadn't put you on the defensive I'm sure you'd proudly admit that you've actually gone at least four orders of magnitude and live pack-socially with a couple of million people and that you'd be insulted if I suggested that you'd cheat, physically attack, or plot revenge against any of them.

You focus on humanity's negative instincts. They're there all right. But we have another set of instincts that balances them, and over the centuries that balance has clearly been prevailing. You yourself, who have not just overcome our enmity for the next tribe down the river but have evolved to get along with people whose names you don't even know--in just a few short millennia--are living proof of that.

Yes there are people who have not made it as far up the evolutionary ladder as you and I have and they are a pain in the ass. Occasionally they do real damage. But civilization has muddled along, healed the damage, and continued to evolve to the point that we're one step away from being a single globe-spanning pack.

Our last big challenge is certainly facing us. The Abrahamic religions, which have consistently coaxed people into manifesting their caveman instincts of intolerance and revenge, have given birth to entire armies of wackos who threaten to wrestle control over entire nations and pit their packs against each other with nuclear weapons. Yet within those nations are throngs of more civilized people who struggle to resist the call of the Neolithic. It seems very likely that our own Caveman-in-Chief will be sent packing and his hateful, bible-thumping, mouth breathing hordes will disperse from lack of leadership and go back to their cockfights and creationism lectures. The equivalent movements on the other side are not insubstantial and with a little help from fate they too may continue the trend toward secularism and democracy that is still alive in the Cradle of Civilization.
 
Wesmorris: vengeance and retribution have no place in the equation when in comes to constructing the laws that maintain society.

Well yes but it does if those who use these means are driven to change or alter the laws that construct any particular society. Vengence and retribution are not meant to maintain but alter.

Baron Max what part of the thread mentioned 'criminals' or even 'criminal behaviour'? The opening thread is very broad in its argument. Vengence and retribution can also refer to militias, suicide bombers, groups with an agenda; for example it could mean searching and trying former national leaders for crimes against humanity at the Hague etc.
 
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sniffy said:
Aren't you already part and parcel of that very kind of culture? Where do you live Shangri-La?
Of course(?). I was born here. That dosen't mean I think everything's peachy. What's your point?
 
Baron Max said:
Do you have any evidence of to support that statement? If so, please provide it ...and not just someone else's opinion, even if he is some hot-shot dick-head sociologist or somesuch crap!
Wait a sec. You want me to provide objective evidence that vengeance and retribution perpetuate cycles of violence? I am almost laughing, but I'm too saddened by your statement.

You can certainly find the evidence you want by googling on:

Isreal/Palestine
Street gangs
Mafia
Serbia/Croatia
All of Japan's warrior-class history
Every shooting over a percieved slight to ones honor
...

And just for the record, wouldn't you say lienency would become an incentive for criminals to continue their behavior AND for potential criminals to see that the life of crime might pay better than a abiding by the laws?

Baron Max
Who said anything about lieniency? All I'm saying is that unconstrained retribution and vendetta is clearly a self perpetuating phenomenon as long as both sides embrace it and one or the other is not obliterated 100%. Surely you see this?
 
Baron Max said:
Okay, so what's the fuckin' difference? If a society wants to call the "vengence and retribution" something else like "consequences" then what the fuck difference does it make to anyone?

Do you have kids?
I think you do.

Alright, let's say your child breaks one of your rules. Does he face your consequences, or your vengeance and retribution?
 
superluminal said:
Who said anything about lieniency? All I'm saying is that unconstrained retribution and vendetta is clearly a self perpetuating phenomenon as long as both sides embrace it and one or the other is not obliterated 100%. Surely you see this?

I don't think that's what this topic is all about. Check and read the very first post and perhaps you'll see that it has nothing to do with most of what you've talked about in your post.

Check it out, you might have something better and more appropriate to discuss, okay?

Baron Max
 
Roman said:
Alright, let's say your child breaks one of your rules. Does he face your consequences, or your vengeance and retribution?

Oh, but you fail to understand that they just might be exactly, precisely the same thing, same acts ......but you call it one thing, someone else calls it another. Who's right? And why?

It's just plain symantics, and various perspective or point of view. Terminology is a must if we're to have any meaningful discussion on this topic.

Baron Max
 
superluminal said:
Of course(?). I was born here. That dosen't mean I think everything's peachy. What's your point?

My point is that you can't completely disown a system in which you play some part. How have you come to the conclusion that the 'here' where you live wants to minimise risk and maximise freedom? For whom? Everyone or the chosen few?
 
Fraggle Rocker said:
Greed, selfishness, gluttony and revenge are indeed part of our instinctual preprogamming.
Wrong. This is rediculous. Stop making crap up out of thin air that makes absolutely no sense. Everybody knows that these characteristics are psychological or emotional abnormalities. Such abnomralities have a cause, and it is not some outerpsace or internal thing. There are many different factors that could cause a person to be greedy, selfish, gluttonous, or whatever. All of them have roots in life. The purpose of human development is for the human to be able to take care of himself, and be able to move through life without emotional problems such as those you metioned above which have clearly defined causes that can be traced depending on the individual.

Starting with babies that cry and grab etc. They eventually grow up to be well developed clear thinking adults unless something during their devlopment stages went wrong.These abnormalities are more common than not, so they would not be so abnormal. But they remain abnormalities because they are not what makes a functionally developed human.
 
Baron Max said:
Oh, but you fail to understand that they just might be exactly, precisely the same thing, same acts ......but you call it one thing, someone else calls it another. Who's right? And why?

It's just plain symantics, and various perspective or point of view. Terminology is a must if we're to have any meaningful discussion on this topic.

Baron Max


Right. Wes has said multiple times this is a semantical issue, and has done a very good job defining his terms and what is meant.

Everyone here understands what he's saying, save you. But I think you're just pretending.

Now, do you disagree with his definitions and subsequent conclusion, or are you just being a troublesome old fart? ;)
 
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