Validity of Christian Zionism

[Ghassan Kanafani]

Christian Zionists depend on envangelical interpertation of the bible , they are driven by the need for facilitation of the second coming of Christ . Facilitation occurs when Israel has occupyed the promised land as was given to them in the Bible .

There are a few points that reject this notion and disproves validity of the logics within this interpertation .

A Christian alternative is that those who are identified as Israel in revelations are nothing but believers in God (Christians) and not Jews .

Evangelists however maintain to interpret the word Israel as representing for the jewish peoples , which has led to representing the Jewish state , Israel .

There several reasons why this equalization of the state of Israel with the Israel in revelations is not correct are :

1) There is only one group that has adapted the identity of Israel in modern times 55 years ago officially , this groups are the zionists who created the state of Israel .

2) Only 20% of todays Israel considers itself religious . The zionist groups that have created Israel and rule it today are not religious either . They are Goyim , according to religious Jews .

3) The state of Israel is against Torah in every possible aspect , Torah Judaism condemns zionism as not Jewish in any way and forms a group of peoples of comparable in ammount as zionist Israel .

4) More than half of todays Israel is Ashkenazic Jewish and has the most watered down (at the very least) ties with Hebrew Israelites in compare to other Jewish peoples .

It is clearly that these reasons disprove the equalization evangelists make regarding their Israel , but it seems that the bible warns for it just as well :

Revelations 2:9

I KNOW YOUR WORKS, AND TRIBULATION AND POVERTY, (BUT YOU ARE RICH) AND I KNOW THE BLASPHEMY OF THEM WHICH SAY THEY ARE YISRAIL AND ARE NOT, BUT ARE THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN

And Revelations 3:9

BEHOLD, I WILL MAKE THEM OF THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN, WHICH SAY THEY ARE YISRAEL AND ARE NOT

These verses either speak of :

1) Ubelievers , which contradicts the translation of Israel into Jewish peoples and Jewish state .

2) The state of Israel

3) Someone else . Who ?

I am sure there are Christians in here who see religious ties with the state of Israel , and who can explain exactly how their reasoning is validated despite all the errors I pointed out .

 

[hypewaders]

It's also interesting that Judaism repudiates Jesus more than Islam, and that there is no biblical promise of reward to gentiles who serve the Jewish Chosen People/master race- and yet, we have the present situation where a seemingly overwhelming majority of christian fundamentalists are desperately devoted to modern zionism.

 

[Ghassan Kanafani]

Their indoctrination has gotten them sofar that they disregard , or neglect or simply refuse to acknowledge the Christian reality that is in Palestine .

I believe they consider Arabs as Edom (perhaps regardless of their creed) and through this demonize and generalize the entire peoples as hostile to their Christian identity .

They are the ones who support de-Christianization of Bethlehem , Jerich and Jerusalem , I hope they are aware of that but I doubt they can understand it from their Edom perspective .

 

[outlandish]

Hype, I'm not sure as to the extent to which Judaism ( I assume by which you mean the Torah) actually mentions Islam. Islam came much much later. Anyone an expert on the Torah??

 

[outlandish]

Ghassan:

Christian Zionists depend on envangelical interpertation of the bible , they are driven by the need for facilitation of the second coming of Christ . Facilitation occurs when Israel has occupyed the promised land as was given to them in the Bible

This is where problems arise, and indeed it does as you say depend on interpretation, and furthermore which scripture is being interperated.

Thought the following is quite intresting:

http://www.isaalmasih.net/bible-isa/tawrat-zabur-injil.html

Also why is it that the evangelists believe that the 2nd coming of Christ will be in the geographical location of what is Israel today? I have spoken to many Muslims, who also believe in the 2nd coming, but they believe that Isa (Jesus) may come at any period of time, and in any locality..........you never know...he may already be here!

 

[DeeCee]

you never know...he may already be here!

If so he'd be shot down cold by the CIA.
Dee Cee

 

[guthrie]

Not being an evangelical end tiems Christian myself, I dont know exactly what they beleive in. I'm fairly certain Ghassan has simplified/ left some bits out. However, Ive done some poking about in the past and essentially, the idea is that they believe in a more literal interpretation of revelations, and that this will start with Israel getting hold of all its territory. Thereafter will come the rapture, (according to the more extreme parts of these idealogues) in which believing christians will get bodily translated to heaven, leaving the rest of us behind to suffer during the period of revelations. Strictly speaking it is likely a pile of pants, but then they seem to believe in it. So therefore their concern for Israel is bogus, since they are ultimately concerned only with converting the jews to Christianity.

 

[Ghassan Kanafani]

Originally posted by guthrie
I'm fairly certain Ghassan has simplified/ left some bits out.

I did ? Like what for instance ?

a more literal interpretation of revelations

The big questions is weither their semantics are accurate , and I am not talking about the biblical accuracy of the word Israel but of those who claim to represent Israel . I understand they simply have fallen victim to normality as Israel is acknowledged as such (the Jews and Jewish state) by the entire world , so it would not really be their misinterpertation , nevertheles the error remains .

There error remains even if we should approach manners in an evangelist way , because the state of Israel does not represent what it claims because of the reasons I mentioned .

So therefore their concern for Israel is bogus, since they are ultimately concerned only with converting the jews to Christianity.

But their concern does exist , bogus or not . The question is weither it is correctly applied , weither it agrees with their own scriptures . And I believe that revelations 2:9 and 3:9 is the clausule to this error they make , in order for it to be corrected .

 

[Ghassan Kanafani]

Originally posted by Wraith
Also why is it that the evangelists believe that the 2nd coming of Christ will be in the geographical location of what is Israel today?

Its not where Israel is today but where israel is according to the bible , which is practically half of the peninsula .

Also I think this has to do with the inhabitation of Israeli's (or Jews as they see them) on this land that fulfills this prophecy . It would be strange to go thtrough all the trouble of stuffing a specific land and then have him appear somewhere in Peru .

Perhaps Jerusalem has something to do with it as well ?

If a Christian knowledged could inform us on this , he could perhaps also explain those who are meant with the imposters of Israel , and how literal this should be interpreted in accordance to the further literal interpertation of revelations .

Could it be that true evangelism indeed aspires the return of the Jewish peoples (those who believe in G-d and follow Torah) , but identifies todays zionist state as un-Jewish and as the imposters mentioned in revelations ?

I think this a questions many evangelist have to consider , especially as their zionist effords are anti-Christian in the places where they are actually policy .

 

[hypewaders]

Hype:"It's also interesting that Judaism repudiates Jesus more than Islam, and that there is no biblical promise of reward to gentiles who serve the Jewish Chosen People/master race- and yet, we have the present situation where a seemingly overwhelming majority of christian fundamentalists are desperately devoted to modern zionism."

Wraith:"Hype, I'm not sure as to the extent to which Judaism ( I assume by which you mean the Torah) actually mentions Islam. Islam came much much later. Anyone an expert on the Torah??"

I wasn't clear enough: Chronology is part of it, but the point I wanted to make is that Jesus is repudiated as a representative of God by specific Judaic prophecy. The Qur'an gives Jesus at least a cameo, although certainly not as a deity. It's interesting that Fundamentalist Christians in comparing Islam and Judaism, feel cozyest with Judaism in spite of these origins.

I am familiar with Christian Zionism, and it is a powerful force in the mainstream American Psyche. This is not a movement that can be validated scripturally, but it's nevetheless surprisingly deep and wide.

Christian Zionism goes something like this: "The creation of modern Israel is a galvanizing, wonderful sign of God's work, and indicative of the approach of the End Times. Anyone who resists Israel is resisting the will of God. God has blessed America for being Christian, and Americans who support Israel are serving God. A new Jewish Temple must be built on Mount Jerusalem, and a cataclysmic war must begin in the Holy Land. This is the will of God, and we must submit to it. In personal living, be a Good Christian. In world outlook, Bring 'em On, and let God sort 'em out. Don't fret about megadeath: He's got the whole world in His hands." This dogma and belief is very common in rural America, and is in my opinion very dangrous to the entire world.

 

[Ghassan Kanafani]

This is not a movement that can be validated scripturally

It is very interesting when a movement relying on literal interpertation of scripture cannot be validated scrpturally .

 

[hypewaders]

It's a lot to get in to, and it's really for the Religion Forum- Basically, biblical prophecy is somewhat specific. Christianity's Jesus doesn't fit it, and many of the events "prophesied" that fundamentalists believe are soon to come have already occurred.

 

[and2000x]

From what I've heard, the Christians side with the Jews because they require them for the rapture, where their blind eyes will be opened before Christ. The neo-cons do not actually side with the Jews out of love, but for A) Land and B) Fucking them over at the big day.

PS: I'll give them a rapture: a dozen atomic bombs!

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by and2000x
From what I've heard, the Christians side with the Jews because they require them for the rapture, where their blind eyes will be opened before Christ. The neo-cons do not actually side with the Jews out of love, but for A) Land and B) Fucking them over at the big day.

PS: I'll give them a rapture: a dozen atomic bombs!

Nah. All we need are a well placed series of hydrogen bombs. I think 263 would be near the minimum required.

 

[and2000x]

Maybe a couple canisters of Zyklon-B would be good, if only for nostalgic values.

 

[Ghassan Kanafani]

The question remains unanswered , why dont have any of the evangelist a position on this ?

If we interpret Israel literal , then we should interpret it literal in the pointed out passages as well . Then there is a literal imposter that calls itself Israel , and the only one that has any significance or value for global issues as described is the state who'is actually occupying the holy land in the name of Israel .

Just as Israel the state is literaly interpreted as Israel in bible , the imposter can be as well . So there is a choice , either Israel is the imposter or the imposter is another claiming itself to be Israel .

If we test the literal interpertation of Yisrail=Israel-state on accuracy we have to conclude that it fails on 3 grounds :

1) Hebrew genetical ancestry
2) Jewish religious ancestry
3) Interferes with Torah

So whats its gonna be ? Can Christians who are convinced that the state of Israel is the biblical Israel explain me this ?

 

[spidergoat]

ghassan:

Isn't this the second time you try to make this point?

If Christians interpret the bible literally, then any state calling itself Israel could fit the requirements in revelation. They are not too picky about the details, because, in the end,they are stupid religious fanatics that distort the facts to fit the story ! . Isn't that the point you wanted to make all along? Because they think the rapture will happen sooner rather than later, the present state of Israel is seen as the one in revelation. In fact, all disasters and tribulations that happen in modern times are worked into this end-times worldview! Every fundamentalist Christian wants to believe the rapture will happen in their time, so anything to the contrary is discounted. Even if they consider that modern Israel is posing as the end-times Israel, there is no way for them to really know. The bible doesn't say that ALL the jews in Israel have to follow ancient bloodlines. It doesn't say that they ALL have to be strictly religious. If the state of Israel is against the Torah, then any future state of the same name will also be against the Torah! You assume a certain rationality of Christians that, from my point of view, is totally absent.

 

[Ghassan Kanafani]

Re: ghassan:

Originally posted by spidergoat
Isn't this the second time you try to make this point?

The third really but there were some issues regarding the proper location of such thread .

they are stupid religious fanatics that distort the facts to fit the story

They arent the only one and theism nor atheism are excluded from suffering of such things , about everybody distorts facts to its own purpose and it is something that should be confronted and dealt with .

The fact that they are nuts is no reason to neglect their reality . I dont mind them being nuts on their own time and place but when their insanity promotes and supports ethnic cleansement and expansionism , actively through democratic ways , they ought to be confronted in one way or the other .

Isn't that the point you wanted to make all along?

The point I am making is that evangelist Christians who support zionism do not interpret the bible correctly according to their own hermeneutiks .

I understand there is hardly any debate with such positions without including biblicism , fortunatly the bible is making me a point they can understand .

Every fundamentalist Christian wants to believe the rapture will happen in their time, so anything to the contrary is discounted. Even if they consider that modern Israel is posing as the end-times Israel, there is no way for them to really know.

Thats not true , if they hol to their own rules of interpertation they can conclude it for the reasons I gave and you are about to argue next . Another reason would be the fact that they are battling Christianity with activities and support , something they would not even know of as Arabs equals Muslim to them . They already defined this through labeling Arabs as Edom , another logical error .

The bible doesn't say that ALL the jews in Israel have to follow ancient bloodlines. It doesn't say that they ALL have to be strictly religious.

Lets remain relevant , it lacks the identity with such small numbers . It speaks about an identity , clearly when you identity is created by 20% of your peoples it isnt your identity .

Interesting is that if we would take bloodlines , there might be a big chance that a German or Russian originating Israeli has less genetical ancestral ties with Hebrews than a Palestinian , would that not make a strange situation .

The bible has always whined about bloodlines , consistency is at its place here .

And thats what exactly isnt there . I understand their motivation and how their mind functions as you explained regarding the end of times in their lifetime and explaining everything from that perspective , but an imposter as prophesized does not contradict this at all , they will just have to find their true Israel . It is easy for them really since their most logical options next would be Torah jewry against the zionist state , it has all the benefits (except for the genetical but they'll get over it Im sure) and its pretty closeby in the states . They can focus on them if they wish .

If the state of Israel is against the Torah, then any future state of the same name will also be against the Torah!

No it is the zionist state that is against the Torah , not a state of Israel . There are procedures that have to emmerge and events to accur , from Torah perspective it will be G-d that will bring the peoples there .

Its sad they already manipulated the entire G-d part by trying to prove how miraculous Israel's existance is and how it has revived and that it would only work if it was true Israel .

Problem is that it doesnt work , but ofcourse they dont care to look at that . Westerniziation in Tel Aviv is enough argument for them .

You assume a certain rationality of Christians that, from my point of view, is totally absent.

I have to assume rationality with peoples otherwise I cannot communicate with them . I understand it is hard when you are dealing with certain peoples but you have to assume it somewhere if you wish to communicate .

And I think that i have adapted well to their needs , now if they can keep to their own rules of interpertation they are fullfilling my needs for logic .

The problem is I havent heard anything from them yet , while I see them express their zionist ideas all the time . Perhaps they simply have no answer ?

Lets hope they will come up with one soon because this argument deserves an explenation .

So again : Christian evangelists : how are we gonna deal with this ?

 

[Flores]

Re: Re: ghassan:

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
So again : Christian evangelists : how are we gonna deal with this ?

We don't need to deal with them, they'll evangelise themselves to the phsycic ward, children abuse, or their death bed and time will take care of them just fine like it took care of their much stronger catholic fathers.

 

[Ghassan Kanafani]

Re: Re: Re: ghassan:

Originally posted by Flores We don't need to deal with them

But this is where you are wrong , no matter the ridiculousness of their beliefs , they have serious political power .

Are we forgetting that mr Bush himself is a born again Christian ?

Aside of this there are innumerous of baptists , evangelists , born agains (Im sorry if some of those may be the same I lack knowledge on the exact sectarian category's) and others who praise Christian Zionism based on the mis-interpertation of Yisrael=Zionist state .

I think that dialogue with them , on their own level , is the only way to make their approach harmless , or perhaps even benefiscious on these political matters .

Sure none would believe anything I say because of my political motivation and infidelic identity , but there are plenty Christians outside of these secteraian categories mentioned as well as inside of them (I think ..or hope rather) who do not position themselves in favor of zionism (and the US policy that evolves around it) , who can have dialogue and understanding with these peoples .

I think that the disproval of the semantical accuracy regarding Yisrael=zionist state , the biblical warning for imposters (and zionist potential fit) in combination with the victimization of Christians in the holy lands , can become quite a relevant point , if presented on their level of understanding by peoples they consider their own .

Im sure Im far to optimistic , but there is potential and when potential exist there should be attempts made .

EDIT : The quote you responded on was rather a question to the evangelists than about them , so that one is still standing :

Christian Zionists , how are we going to deal with the semantical defintions regarding Yisrael and its imposters in revelation and the victimization of Christians and ancient Christian communities because of it ?