Vaccine related autism study?

[Russ_Watters]

Depends on the child. At 4 (preschool age) almost all children will have trouble with that. At 10 (5th grade or so) almost all children will be capable of that.

Great, so since kitt said "high school", can we agree peanuts should not be banned in high school?

 

[Russ_Watters]

That isnt the point. The allergen can be transferred to objects that the allergic individual might be exposed to. In a public school, every student has a right to a safe environment.

I recognized your point. My argument was based on recognizing that what you are suggesting can't be done everywhere unless you ban peanuts everywhere. Do you recognize that?

 

[billvon]

Great, so since kitt said "high school", can we agree peanuts should not be banned in high school?

Up to them, based on their perception of risks. If they have a lot of peanut allergies in their student body it might make sense; if they already have a comprehensive set of action plans and a lower risk population it might not.

 

[Magical Realist]

So you don't think toxins accumulate? Metals like mercury, aluminum etc aren't a problem if you are exposed to moderate amounts regularly; you only are at risk if you are exposed to it once? LOL! LOL!

You have some evidence pointing to build up of mercury and aluminum in the body from vaccines over a period of a month, lets see it.

 

[Russ_Watters]

You have some evidence pointing to build up of mercury and aluminum in the body from vaccines over a period of a month, lets see it.

That's not what he asked/claimed. You are dodging.

 

[billvon]

You have some evidence pointing to build up of mercury and aluminum in the body from vaccines over a period of a month, lets see it.

Sure!

Aluminum exposure per month for infants:

Via vaccines: 670 ug
Breast milk: 1200 ug
Formula: 6300 ug
Soy formula: 19500 ug

And no known problems from aluminum exposure from soy formula.

 

[Magical Realist]

Sure!

Aluminum exposure per month for infants:

Via vaccines: 670 ug
Breast milk: 1200 ug
Formula: 6300 ug
Soy formula: 19500 ug

And no known problems from aluminum exposure from soy formula.

So you're confirming what I said. No reason to be concerned about monthly build up of aluminum in infants. What's the maximum level of Al for an infant over one month?

 

[billvon]

So you're confirming what I said. No reason to be concerned about monthly build up of aluminum in infants. What's the maximum level of Al for an infant over one month?

Based on the numbers above - 19500 ug per month has been demonstrated to be safe.

Let's compare that to your claim that an infant would get "a whopping 1225 micrograms if the highest aluminum brands are used and Hep B vaccine is also given" in a single month. If 19500 is safe, then an amount less than 10% of that is certainly safe.

 

[Kittamaru]

I swear... MR should have been in that "Dodgeball" movie as the trainer... I even have a catch phrase for him:

"If you can dodge the facts, you can dodge a ball!"

 

[Magical Realist]

Based on the numbers above - 19500 ug per month has been demonstrated to be safe.

Let's compare that to your claim that an infant would get "a whopping 1225 micrograms if the highest aluminum brands are used and Hep B vaccine is also given" in a single month. If 19500 is safe, then an amount less than 10% of that is certainly safe.

Not 1225 mcg in a month. 1225 mcg in a DAY.

 

[tali89]

So I logged on sciforums, and noted that I had received a few messages about members having responded to a post I made, where I criticised some individuals (including moderators) for ganging up on Magical Realist and not offering much in the way of a logical argument. Lo and behold, my post has been surreptitiously deleted, with only vestiges remaining where it has been quoted by other posters. No indication was given to the audience or myself that the post had been deleted, nor was a reason given. I guess someone was really upset about me pointing out that confusing 'micrograms' and 'milligrams' is a mistake even a high school science student should not make.

Given that Magical Realist has been lynched by you guys for 24 pages of this discussion, I find it rather ironic that his detractors have such a thin skin. Put your big boy pants on, folks.

 

[Magical Realist]

So I logged on sciforums, and noted that I had received a few messages about members having responded to a post I made, where I criticised some individuals (including moderators) for ganging up on Magical Realist and not offering much in the way of a logical argument. Lo and behold, my post has been surreptitiously deleted, with only vestiges remaining where it has been quoted by other posters. No indication was given to the audience or myself that the post had been deleted, nor was a reason given. I guess someone was really upset about me pointing out that confusing 'micrograms' and 'milligrams' is a mistake even a high school science student should not make.

Given that Magical Realist has been lynched by you guys for 24 pages of this discussion, I find it rather ironic that his detractors have such a thin skin. Put your big boy pants on, folks.

That's interesting. They banned me for 3 days for allegedly making claims without supporting evidence. That's all I've been doing is providing supporting evidence. There's even evidence that the CDC lied and falsified numerous autism/vaccine studies:

http://preventdisease.com/news/14/061714_CDC-Vaccine-Safety-Research-Exposed-Flawed-Falsified.shtml

How many others I wonder. I guess the mob here can't handle you giving a good objective view on their abusive and ad homing behavior here. Delete it. Censor it. Falsify the thread. Just like the CDC does with autism papers.

Frankly I'm getting bored with their drama and hysteria. I think I've provided enough evidence for vaccine/autism linkage to at least merit more research into it instead of falling back into the dogmatic denialism we see demonstrated here. People who want to unbiasedly look into this issue can do so, as well as witness the hatred and vitriol spued by the vaccine fanatics. Parents have the right to choose. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Kristoffer]

Detractor, had no hand in pulling anything (reported some spam, true), and I stand by my statement that it's stupid to believe Jenna McCarthy over scientists.

 

[Russ_Watters]

Not 1225 mcg in a month. 1225 mcg in a DAY.

Lemme get that next crank on the circle of this argument for you/billvon:

Ah, so you think that a once-a-day exposure to something is the same as a once-a-month exposure to something? LOL! LOL! LOL!

..... So you don't think toxins accumulate? Metals like mercury, aluminum etc aren't a problem if you are exposed to moderate amounts regularly; you only are at risk ifyou are exposed to it once? LOL! LOL!

Math test, MR:
if I give you 10 apples a day for a month and give billvon 100 apples once, at the end of the month, who has accumulated more apples?

Also: have you ever had an X-ray...?

 

[billvon]

Not 1225 mcg in a month. 1225 mcg in a DAY.

So you think the question "What's the maximum level of Al for an infant over one month?" is the same as "What's the maximum level of Al for an infant over one day?" LOL! LOL! LOL!

 

[Magical Realist]

Lemme get that next crank on the circle of this argument for you/billvon:

Math test, MR:
if I give you 10 apples a day for a month and give billvon 100 apples once, at the end of the month, who has accumulated more apples?

Depends on how many apples I was getting rid of for over a month. You see, we have something in us called a liver that removes toxins from the blood. The argument against month-long buildup relies on the fact of the simultaneous elimination of toxins from the body via the liver and kidneys.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

I found this interesting list of alu-myths on Facebook.

VERY LONG POST AHEAD.
Common aluminium myths and questions:

MYTH 1: "The risk to infants posed by the total aluminum exposure received from the entire recommended series of childhood vaccines over the first year of life is extremely worrisome”

Actually no, the risk is extremely low:
http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsB…/ScienceResearch/ucm284520.htm


MYTH 2: "There haven't been any studies done to evaluate whether the amount of aluminium that an infant typically receives when completing the full AAP recommended vaccine regimen is actually safe."

There have been, for example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22001122

Also, the FDA conducted an updated analysis of many studies regarding the safety of aluminum adjuvants and found that the maximum amount of aluminum an infant could be exposed to over the first year of life via vaccines would be 4.225 milligrams (mg). They found that the body burden of aluminum from vaccines AND diet throughout an infant’s first year of life is significantly less than the corresponding safe body burden of aluminum, based on the minimal risk levels established by the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry.http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/mrls/mrllist.asp
http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsB…/ScienceResearch/ucm284520.htm

MYTH 3: "I just don’t like the sound of aluminium. Hasn’t it been linked to Alzheimers, breast cancer and brain damage? I can control the amount of aluminium I consume, so I want to limit the amount my baby receives from vaccines.”

You can control the amount of aluminium you consume or use in skin products to some extent, but it is everywhere in the environment - the air, soil and water - and is largely unavoidable. http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxguides/toxguide-22.pdf

So, avoiding vaccines is really going to do diddly squat towards avoiding aluminium exposure.

Aluminium does not cause Alzheimers or breast cancer.
http://theconversation.com/does-aluminium-cause-alzheimers-…

To cause neurological damage, you would have to be exposed to enormous quantities. Vaccines just don’t qualify. The potentially toxic effects of very large quantities of aluminum are encephalopathy, osteomalacia and microcytic anemia. These can become apparent during the treatment of patients suffering from chronic renal failure. So what about in babies who receive vaccinations? No. Aluminium toxicity due to vaccination has never been seen in babies.

Aluminium toxicity is usually only found in patients with renal impairment. Acute aluminium toxicity is extremely rare, but it is possible in people with impaired kidney function. Damaged kidneys and PN – or parenteral (intravenous) nutrition products - are the risk factors for developing acute aluminium toxicity. Despite having those risk factors, most patients with acute kidney injury who require PN do not receive excessive exposure to aluminum from the PN formulation.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18728106

So, is acute aluminium toxicity likely in a normal, healthy baby receiving vaccinations? Really, it’s not even possible. What about in a premature baby with kidney dysfunction on parenteral nutrition receiving vaccinations? It's not very likely, but if you are concerned, you should discuss it with your pediatrician.http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/165315-overview

https://www.facebook.com/RtAVM/posts/10152027017233831

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Couldn't get it all on that post. so alu-myths continued.

MYTH 4: “Dr Sears says that the amount of aluminium in vaccines is more than injectable aluminium guidelines. He says that the FDA advises premature babies and any patient with impaired kidney function shouldn’t get more than 10 to 25 micrograms of injected aluminum at any one time, yet the total dose of aluminum can vary from 250 micrograms at birth (Hep B) to 295 - 1225 micrograms at 2, 4 and 6 months. He is a medical doctor, and he is worried that these aluminium levels far exceed what may be safe for young babies.”

There is a glaring error with Dr Sears aluminium information that would likely go over most people's heads. Vaccines are what's called a biological product. They have a different guideline to aluminium levels in food and a different guideline to aluminium levels in continuous nutritional intravenous products (parenteral nutrition).

Dietary aluminum is in such small quantities that it is not a significant source of concern in persons with normal elimination capacity. Premature babies do not have a normal elimination capacity, so the IV nutritional guideline needs to factor this in.

Dr Sears compares aluminium in intravenous nutrition products for preemie babies to aluminium in intramuscular vaccines. He is comparing the level of aluminium in vaccines to the wrong guideline.

Anti-vax sites are notorious for making this same error eg. they will compare environmental mercury from drinking water (a guideline determined by the EPA) to thimerosal in vaccines (a guideline determined by the FDA - for biological intramuscular injectables)

Here is the correct value:

Chapter 21 of the US Code of Federal Regulations [610.15(a)] limits the amount of aluminum in the recommended individual dose of biological products, including vaccines, to not more than 0.85-1.25 mg per dose.

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/…/cdrh/c…/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm…

MYTH 5: “But injected aluminium is different to ingesting it”.

Not really. With aluminium, absorption is extremely low from either route.

Ingestion via the gut IS different to
Injection IM - into muscle (vaccines) is different to
Injected IV - intravenously (directly into the bloodstream)

But you also have to consider how often you consume or inject these substances.

Water and food, which we ingest several times a day every day of our lives will *always* have a lower safety limit simply because we use them so often. It's really the aluminium from food and water that we need to watch. Even though very little retained, it can accumulate because we consume them daily, several times a day, over time. Vaccines are spaced out over months, so the aluminium contained within them do not have much of a chance to accumulate - the amounts are so small to begin with and the majority is excreted.

With the food and drinks you ingest, your gut mucosa filters out a lot of harmful substances and prevents them going into the bloodstream. So most aluminium that you eat, you would excrete before it even enters the bloodstream. That which does enter the bloodstream can also be excreted via the kidneys--> urine and bile. Less than 1% of the aluminium that you eat is absorbed by the body.
http://europepmc.org/…/reload=0%3bjsessionid=qKechXjYOfuu6B…

Even less is retained (in the tissues and skeleton)

Much of the injected aluminium from vaccines enters the bloodstream, but only a very, very small percentage of that will be "dissolved" in the blood - it's in the form of precipitate and is bound to carrier proteins (transferrin). Approximately 98 % of aluminium in the blood is excreted in the urine, and to a lesser extent bile. The unabsorbed aluminum is excreted in the feces. A diminishingly small amount may be retained.
We're talking about a minute fraction of two hundredths of bugger all.

Aluminium given intravenously (via continuous nutritional products for premmie babies - which is the guideline Dr Sears uses - ) has a much higher retention and accumulation value. Of course it does, because it goes straight into the bloodstream and the IV line is continuously there, feeding them all day long. And these tiny preemie babies have underdeveloped kidneys.

When determine the safety of aluminium in vaccines, ingestion of aluminium from food PLUS injection from vaccines is all factored into the formulation and regulation of vaccines when determining safe body burdens.

The amounts in vaccines fall within recommended guidelines when you compare it to the *correct* value.

 

[Kittamaru]

Depends on how many apples I was getting rid of for over a month. You see, we have something in us called a liver that removes toxins from the blood. The argument against month-long buildup relies on the fact of the simultaneous elimination of toxins from the body via the liver and kidneys.

Except... didn't you say something earlier about how this inorganic mercury wasn't able to be purged by the body, and just accumulated, hmm?

So... which is it?

 

[Magical Realist]

Couldn't get it all on that post. so alu-myths continued.

So the FDA is saying the amount of injectable aluminum into a 200 lb grown adult is the same for a 25 lb baby? That doesn't make sense. Dr. Sear's estimate is based on body weight. I agree with his estimate.