Using Stem Cells to Manufacture Batteries and/or Other Devices?

[Acitnoids]

First I must state that I'm not even a novice in any of the disciplines required to pull of something as complicated as growing an organ, timing the discharges between stacks of cells and then optimizing the geometric scaffolding to produce a current. That being said, ...
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Electric fish are capable of generating an electric field through a specialized structure known as the electric organ and different species of electric fish discharge their organ (EOD) in different ways.
1) Wave-type EODs; continuous and almost sinusoidal.
2) Pulse-type EODs; brief pulses separated by longer gaps.
3) Strongly electric fish; amplitude range from 10-500 Volts with a current of up to 1 Ampere.
4) Weakly electric fish; amplitude typically less than 1 Volt. . The Electric eel for example (actually a fish), has three abdominal organs that produce electricity. The Main (electric) organ, the Hunter's organ and the Sachs organ. Plate like cells called Electrocytes are imbedded throughout all three organs and when they're stacked together these cells produce a negative charge.
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My questions are:
With our current knowledge, is it possible to produce biological batteries, antennas, monitors, ... through the manipulation of non-human stem cells? Personally, I think it's inevitable but as for right now, ... :shrug:
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Wouldn't product applications help in the advancement of human medicine? I think it would. This approach might even mitigate some of the ligitimate moral objections to human stem cell research (assuming that the same basic procedures for isolating cells and growing organs apply between species).
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Is there to much focus being put on medical research? That's all they seem to talk about.
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Should we have to wait for a medical breakthrough before advancing stem cell research to include product applications?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_fish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_organ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_eel
http://stemcells.nih.gov/info/basics/

 

[woowoo]

Yeah go for it, great idea as long as we are not connecting wires up to
living sentient creatures. Amazing to think nature built a tazer millions
of years before hominids came on the scene.

 

[Acitnoids]

Huh, I thought I would have gotten more of a response. Nobody here has an opinion on whether or not we've put to much focus on medical stem cell applications? I just so happen to believe that when to much focus is put on one application for a new type of technology it can retard the development of other applications. What do you think? Should future product development (such as batteries) hinge on the success or failure of medical stem cell research?

 

[Emil]

Watch "The_Matrix"

"The film depicts a future in which reality as perceived by most humans is actually a simulated reality created by sentient machines to pacify and subdue the human population, while their bodies' heat and electrical activity are used as an energy source."

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Huh, I thought I would have gotten more of a response. Nobody here has an opinion on whether or not we've put to much focus on medical stem cell applications? I just so happen to believe that when to much focus is put on one application for a new type of technology it can retard the development of other applications. What do you think? Should future product development (such as batteries) hinge on the success or failure of medical stem cell research?

Yes you are right. Poor response so far.
But some very successful threads start off very slowly.
I don't know what kind of research has been done on this.
Has anyone got any good links?

Efficiency in nature can outstrip human endeavours, as was seen by the recent paper dealing with photosynthesis, which showed that plants were using quantum physics. Nothing else could explain their efficiency at converting light into usable energy.

I have said it many times on this site. The person who invents a battery which is more efficient than anything produced at present, will become the world's first Trillionaire. Batteries are a fantastic way of storing energy and powering things, but they are inefficient, expensive to make, and heavy.

Maybe you shouldn't be publicising all your good ideas here.
Maybe the potential posters have all rushed off to file patents

 

[Acitnoids]

Originally Posted by Captain Kermmen
I don't know what kind of research has been done on this. Has anyone got any good links?

Nor do I. I tried searching for a few links but all I could come up with was potential human medical applications. I'd be interested if anyone could find anything on this subject.

I have said it many times on this site. The person who invents a battery which is more efficient than anything produced at present, will become the world's first Trillionaire.

I'd be lying if I said that this hadn't crossed my mind.

Maybe you shouldn't be publicizing all your good ideas here. Maybe the potential posters have all rushed off to file patents

Like I said in the O.P.. I haven't the slightest idea about the procedures needed to submit a proper patent application. If this thread inspires someone to make it happen then, ... great. The sooner the better. The reality of it is, to hypothesize a new invention and actually inventing it are two different things. That being said, you can't have one without the other. To me it's not a matter of if it's possible but more a question of when will it happen?

 

[Captain Kremmen]

They'll start posting any minute now................

 

[Acitnoids]

:scratchin:
Let's see if I can add something in the hopes of spurring a discussion. The subject of this thread is simple enough. Should the advancement of stem cell research be governed by the success or failure of medical applications? Sure, there are pros and cons to this approach but according to my POV humanity would be better served if stem cell research focused more on product applications. Why? First off, researchers would (hypothetically) concentrate on different techniques for assembling multiple types of cells into an organ matrix. At present, researchers can synthesize things like heart cells, lung cells, arteries, veins and capillaries yet noone has figured out how to put them all together to make a functioning complex organ. Product research may (hypothetically) advance this knowledge without the worry of a patient's immune system rejecting the foreign object. Secondly, medical research is the only thing advancing stem cell technology. This lead to the notion that the specific shape of any manufactured organ must resemble the natural organ being copied. This need not be the case with product development. From what I've read there are a host of techniques used to grow basic organs. They range from biodegradable polymers too 3D printed proteins. Product development could (hypothetically) open the door for new techniques for mass-producing any desired shape.
Assuming that stem cells can be used to create a batery by reproducing an electric fish's Electric organ; what is preventing this synthesized organ from from taking on any shape imanginable? Who knows, we may even discover that manufactured hearts and lungs work just as well no matter what shape they take on.
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Am I crazy to consider such things or is this the same as some person back in 1977 asking why we don't have privet companies taking regular folks into space yet?

 

[Acitnoids]

Originally Posted by Captain Kremmen
They'll start posting any minute now ...............

Nope. Apparently mutant cats and resurrecting extinct delicacies are more interesting. Maybe I sould have started out with a fart joke :fart:

 

[Captain Kremmen]

No-one is interesred in batteries.
They think it's old technology.

In a way they are right, it is old technology.
Bulky and heavy,using expensive materials, and inefficient.

But an energy storage method that is compact, inexpensive, and efficient awaits invention.
Couple this with solar power, and you have limitless free energy, easily transported.

OK sciforumers, ignore batteries!
But when someone else becomes a Trillionaire, don't say you weren't told about it.

 

[Acitnoids]

This is from the electric eel link in the OP:

Fromwikipedia-Electric Eel
The electric eel generates its characteristic electrical pulse in a manner similar to a battery, in which stacked plates produce an electrical charge. In the electric eel, some 5,000 to 6,000 stacked electroplaques are capable of producing a shock at up to 500 volts and 1 ampere of current (500 watts).

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This link, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles.PMC1143955/pdf/jphysiol00368-0136.pdf is a study done on electroplaques in the electric organ of a ray called Torpedo marmorata (Marbled electric ray). It shows the cells dimensions (radius of 0-75um, height of 50um), distance between each cell in a stack (between 200 and 1,000nm), recharge time (between 60 and 100ms at low current) as well as the chemicals needed for discharge/recharge.
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With a little ingenuity I believe that these cells can be pit into an array of stacks capable of producing a constant current. Because each stack is so small, these bio-batteries should be neither bulky nor inefficient (at 50% peek output from each cell, a stack of 160 cells will equal a single pulse of 12V). As for the inexpensive part :shrug: . The only way I can see this technology moving forward is through the manipulation of stem cells inside a manufactured scaffolding. This won't be cheap, at least at first.
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This idea should not be limited to batteries. Researchers could (hypothetically) use Chromatophores to create monitors that surpass the highest Pixel Per Inch used today (which is about 400ppi). These hypothetical devices (made from skin cells) might be flexable and as flat as cardboard. Once again, only advancements in non-medical stem cell research will determine if any of this is possible or not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromatophore
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In my mind the possiblities are endless. The only thing holding them back is a singular focus on medical applications for stem cell research. What does the rest of the membership think?

 

[Captain Kremmen]

This link might interest you.
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/09/electric-fish/

Fish that use electricity to sense their backgrounds do not store and use energy efficiently. They need to radiate it.

Just in the past year, they have found evidence that leaves are using quantum mechanics to optimise their efficiency.
Possibly there are creatures that store energy in a battery form.
They would be the creatures to look at.
But, perhaps nature finds that fat is the best battery it can come up with.

I think that the general line of your thinking is very good though.

As for why you are getting a poor response to a good thread subject.
I wouldn't blame this site in particular.
The level of scientists who could kick around (discuss) such an idea don't seem to be using the internet to do so.

Why? You tell me.

There are a number of knowledgeable scientists on here, but of course they haven't got the expertise or the time to deal with every type of post.

The physics section is good, though incredibly aggressive, and the chap that runs the chemistry section is excellent, but has very few posts.

 

[Acitnoids]

Thanks for the link Captain,
Yes. Some electric fish, such as the Sternopygus macrurus, use their electric organs to perceive their enviroments using the wave-type EOD mentioned in the O.P.. And yes, the electric eel technically falls under this category. The article says:

Thousands of fish and other oceanic creatures use electric fields to help them perceive their enviroments. The most famous is the electric eel, ..., but most animals use the electric signals in more subtle ways.

It is my understanding that this article is referring to the majority of wave-type producing electric fish, specifically Sternopygus macrurus. Wave-type EODs are continuous, almost sinusoidal. What Sternopygus macrurus did for science (chosen specifically for its fairly regular discharge) is demonstrate that these constant pulses can be strengthened or weakened through a controlled neural release of charged sodium and potassium ions. I didn't see anything regarding pulse-type electric fish (another category that the unique electric eel falls under) or that all electric fish "need to radiate their charge".
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In any event. I want to publicly thank you for participating in this thread. It's nice to know that at least one other soul can see what I was trying to get at. If there are two things I have learnt over the years it's that Nature does not give up her secrets willingly and mankind will never stop trying to reveal them.
Maybe this thread should have been titled; "Is the Pursuit of Medical Applications Hindering Advancements in Stem Cell Research?" Even the closing statements in the link you provided talk about the possible medical applications involved for studying these animals. This seems to be their only motivation, ... or source of funding.

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Huh, I thought I would have gotten more of a response.

The simple fact is that sometimes threads don’t ‘take off’. There’s no rhyme or reason to it. In my case, I’m just too busy in real life to spend the time I’d like to for participating in SF discussions.

My questions are:
With our current knowledge, is it possible to produce biological batteries, antennas, monitors,....

I have no idea, but I doubt it. Unless you’re dealing with bacterial, fungal or algal cells, cells are generally too resource intensive and difficult to maintain to act in such devices. I grow mammalian neuronal cultures and they require very specific and demanding growth conditions. And, of course, primary cells have a finite lifetime before they enter senescence.

... through the manipulation of non-human stem cells?

I’m not sure why you are specifically mentioning stem cells. It may be to get around the problem of senescence that I just mentioned. But it’s not stem cells that are producing electric currents in those fish/eels, it’s neurons. Stem cells are undifferentiated and wouldn’t provide any sort of benefit to the hypothetical manufacturing applications you’re proposing. In fact, often they are even harder to culture than differentiated lineages.

Wouldn't product applications help in the advancement of human medicine?

I wouldn’t think so. Medical applications of stem cells are a totally different application.

Is there too much focus being put on medical research? That's all they seem to talk about.

How can there be “too much focus” on something as important as cellular therapy for degenerative diseases? The focus on medical applications reflects the need for such therapies and the utility of the cells.

Should we have to wait for a medical breakthrough before advancing stem cell research to include product applications?

No. But I would suggest that the lack of product applications reflects the impracticality of doing so.

 

[Acitnoids]

Hercules,
I have to break my reply up into two posts. Feel free to join them together, if you like.

Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller
The simple fact is that sometimes threads don't 'take off'. There's no rhyme or reason to it. In my case, I'm just too busy in real life to spend the time I'd like to for participating in SF discussions.

I understand. Believe you me, I haven't lost any sleep over it. It is what it is.

I have no idea, but I doubt it. Unless you're dealing with bacterial, fungal or algal cells, cells are generally too resource intensive and difficult to maintain to act in such devices. I grow mammalian neuronal cultures and they require very specific and demanding growth conditions. And, of course, primary cells have a finite lifetime before they enter senescence.

Are you referring to isolated cells growning inside some sort of petri dish? This wasn't quite what I had in mind but I will take your words to heart.

How can there be "too much focus" on something as important as cellular therapy for degenerative diseases? The focus on medical applications reflects the need for such therapies and the utility of the cells.

I agree with your sentiment. All I'm saying is that tunnel vision is never a good thing (unless you're an equestrian).

No. But I would suggest that the lack of product applications reflects the impracticality of doing so.

Fair enough. Personally, I see things a little different. Just because something is impraciticable that does not mean it is impossible. Had past generations held to this belief we wouldn't have powered flight as we know it today. Gone are the days when two bicycle makers can make such leaps.

 

[Acitnoids]

I'm not sure why you are specifically mentioning stem cells. (...) But it's not stem cells that are producing electric currents in those fish/eels, it's neurons. Stem cells are undefferentiated and wouldn't provide any sort of benefit to the hypothetical manufactuing applications you're proposing. In fact, often they are even harder to culture than differentiated lineages.

Of course, stem cells are "blank cells" but they can be used to replicate any and all cells. Don't stem cells give us the potential to build entire organs? Any cultured electroplaques (nerve like cells) would have to be grown alongside the electric organs main cells (these include, but are not limited to muscle like cells and ion channels) in order to function properly. From what I've gathered there is only one way to incorporate each type of cultured cell into a single working organ and that entails constructing some sort of scaffolding. The material and shape has varied from on technique to the next but the hope is to create a milticellular matrix that performs a function. In this particular example that function would be harnessing the charge/discharge produced by the most powerful electric organs. But then agan, what do I know?

I wouldn't think so. Medical applications of stem cells are a totally different application.

Not necessarily. Before stem cells can be used to grow new hearts and lungs scientists must first learn how to organize different types of cells into a single complex organ. If someone had the means to develop a repeatable method for manufacturing an isolated organ capable of producing a current or receiving/sending a radio signal then they'll have written the framework for reproducing human organs. Only a handful of people need kidney transplants but everyone would benefit from a smartphone (or any other device) powered by organic proteins and sugar. The potential revenue stream from an organic commodity should lead to advancements in research while minimizing ethical concerns.