Use the Scientific Method to Prove Something is Absolutely "Moral" or "Immoral"

Charles_Wong

Registered Senior Member
An article I like (I was tempted to post "This is an interesting article," but that would mean I am declaring that the article is by nature interesting which I cannot scientifically prove: what is interesting depends on the person viewing the info.: only he can decide if he personally finds it interesting or not):

What You Can't Say

January 2004

Have you ever seen an old photo of yourself and been embarrassed at the way you looked? Did we actually dress like that? We did. And we had no idea how silly we looked. It's the nature of fashion to be invisible, in the same way the movement of the earth is invisible to all of us riding on it.

What scares me is that there are moral fashions too. They're just as arbitrary, and just as invisible to most people. But they're much more dangerous. Fashion is mistaken for good design; moral fashion is mistaken for good. Dressing oddly gets you laughed at. Violating moral fashions can get you fired, ostracized, imprisoned, or even killed.

[ . . . ]

Complete text at http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html
 
What can be more silly than to use the scientific method to demonstrate morality?

The scientific method has been developed to elucidate how nature works.
 
What can be more silly than to use the scientific method to demonstrate morality?

The scientific method has been developed to elucidate how nature works.

That is exactly my point: the overwhelming majority of the human species claim that things are moral or immoral in the absolute sense. But then, they would need to be able to prove this. The currently ubiquitously accepted best model to prove something, at least in most Western and Oriental societies, is the scientific method. Therefor, when a person says for example that masturbation is absolutely immoral, he would have to use the Scientific Method to prove it, in the same sense that if a person says that a certain chemical is responsible for a certain result, he would have to scientifically prove it.
 
According to that line of reasoning you would merely have to hold a survey among the population asking if masturbation is wrong or not. The outcome of that survey would dictate the morally correct answer.

Scientific method applied. masturbation morally proven to be wrong or right.
 
According to that line of reasoning you would merely have to hold a survey among the population asking if masturbation is wrong or not. The outcome of that survey would dictate the morally correct answer.

Scientific method applied. masturbation morally proven to be wrong or right.

A survey in the Middle ages would show that everyone thought that the Earth was flat, that the sun revolved around Earth, that Earth was the center of the Universe, that witches existed, etc. It does not make it true.

The point is that science cannot be used to prove absolute morality, as such, morality is purely subjective, it's a feeling, not a scientifically proovable entity. If one can claim absolute morality without science ,then why not absolute religion, absolute claims of the supernatural, etc.? What if a Christian said that Christianity is the absolute truthful religion and Bible moral code are absolute: you can't question it, you can't scientifically verify or reject it: it is just so because I say so.
 
The point is that science cannot be used to prove absolute morality, as such, morality is purely subjective, it's a feeling, not a scientifically proovable entity.

I don't think you stumbled upon a secret here. I already told you in the first post that the scientific method is not used to determine morality.
 
I'm no expert in philosophy, but i did read one short book by Kant that tackled this very subject and applied a kind of scientific method to morality and ethics. He came up with the categorical imperative. Kant's view was that there is a universal code of ethics, the catch was that it couldn't nessisarily be taught, only discovered for oneself given the direction which he outlined (his 'method'). Personally I think that everyone knows, at some level, the right and wrong thing to do, but that it gets clouded by society and 'fashion' of the time.
 
Charles Wong:

You forget that the scientific method is used for empirical claims. Ethics are not empirical but a matter of reason.
 
Charles Wong:

You forget that the scientific method is used for empirical claims. Ethics are not empirical but a matter of reason.

Ethics are not reason-based but emotion-based: we "feel" about things being "right" and "wrong," we don't use the Scientific Method to decide it, as such, morality is purely subjective and absolute morality cannot be claimed.
 
Ethics are not reason-based but emotion-based: we "feel" about things being "right" and "wrong," we don't use the Scientific Method to decide it, as such, morality is purely subjective and absolute morality cannot be claimed.
Have you ever been near a book of philosophy? :bugeye:
 
>> What can be more silly than to use the scientific method to demonstrate morality? The scientific method has been developed to elucidate how nature works. >>>


LOL, well Nature works via a universal ROM conscience... and no amount of scientific study will be able to read the genetic ROM.

It seems if what is done by someone helps others and does not hurt others then it is (defined by Nature as) GOOD.

WE can do what we like as long as it does not hurt others. These acts are immaterial to Nature.

What is done only for personal benefit but hurts others is deemed BAD.

Them's the rules...Nature has decreed that we "get along", LOL
at least until Nature has no longer any need for us. But then that is at the end of LIFE's life cycle. Nature now does not care what we do now, LIFE has no need for us anymore. The seeding has begun....... LOL
 
>> Kant's view was that there is a universal code of ethics, the catch was that it couldn't necessarily be taught >>

Kant was right, IMO, he was of course referring to the genetic Read Only Memory (ROM)that defines "co-operative conduct" that is present is every life form, .....passed on from the beginning.

This code of conduct is mandatory for LIFE to go from seed to flowering to seed again... [a burnt stick in the eye of so called "evolution"].

You ignore this "conscience" at your peril, for when the world turns its back, then the last days of LIFE on this hunk of rock are countable.
 
Have you ever been near a book of philosophy? :bugeye:

Yes, I have been near a book of Philosphy. I have also been near books on mathematics, PHysics, Chemistry, and Biology.

I have also been near actual professional philosophers, physicists, and biologists. And in several cases, I have physically touched a Professional philospher, biologist, and Physicist.

I also have been near other things as well. Right now, I am near my lamp, bed, and shelf. Yesterday, I was near a tree, a car, and a several random pedestrians.

What objects have you been near recently? Which object do you find the most memorable?

Regards.
 
Yes, I have been near a book of Philosphy. I have also been near books on mathematics, PHysics, Chemistry, and Biology.

I have also been near actual professional philosophers, physicists, and biologists. And in several cases, I have physically touched a Professional philospher, biologist, and Physicist.

I also have been near other things as well. Right now, I am near my lamp, bed, and shelf. Yesterday, I was near a tree, a car, and a several random pedestrians.

What objects have you been near recently? Which object do you find the most memorable?

Regards.
Whaat did you learn from your close encounters with these nouns? Ethics are arbitrary. So what?
 
I must be high

Fascinating, Mr. Wong. I need to consider the article more, but my initial reaction to the notion of using the scientific method to prove something is absolutely moral or immoral is that presently, that is impossible. We simply haven't enough data.

The thing is that I go with species as a general basis for morality. Not the "king of the hill" or "last species standing" notion; those things are obviously unhealthy for the species. Look at it through a Thelemic lens: Do what thou wilt may be the whole of the law, but without rational consideration, it becomes unhealthy. Rape and murder sprees? Why not? Do what thou wilt, after all. Except that rape and murder sprees generally end with a person unable to do what they would: in prison, or perhaps dead. In a group dynamic, the same principle applies through natural consequence. We can certainly do what we will and would, but, and I'm not claiming we're there yet, imagine pollution as an extinction-level event. Humanity could literally pollute its environment to the point that the planet can no longer sustain the species. This seems a bad outcome for the species. Considering that we seem to have an influence over our evolution unheard of among other species, that is to say we can choose certain things that ants, slugs, or even the beloved bonobos and chimpanzees cannot. What would it require for ants or slugs to pollute the world to such a point that they couldn't survive? Would nature itself, by its checks and balances throughout time, even allow such an outcome? We humans could definitely choose extinction. We've even designed weapons that would add up to the same. Warfare, anyone?

What about polluting the whales to death, or the spotted owls? For instance, and I can't find the reference right now, so I'll call it apocryphal: The story goes that a certain year of Les Paul guitar (1959, I think) is the greatest electric guitar ever made, and this is because of a combination of factors not the least of which are tone and sustain. There is a specific reason, though, why there will never be another guitar bearing its unique characteristics. I'm told, and read a couple paragraphs several years ago, that the wood for the '59 came from a specific grove of ash trees in South America, and that, well, all of the trees were destroyed before anyone realized they didn't grow anywhere else. Now, that's hardly the worst sin in the world, and a certain degree of ignorance is forgivable inasmuch as anyone can claim the right to judge. Making such a mistake again, however, would seem immoral, a kind of greed that endangers humanity itself: if we destroy enough species, around the world faster than nature can fill in the gaps, it would be bad for our species.

It is my philosophical belief, and therefore in some applicable sense my assertion that science would eventually show, that nature is not extraneous and that all things in nature have their place. Without certain things, the Universe is incomplete. Nature abhors a vacuum, as the saying goes.

The functional problem is that humanity itself is a finite creature, both individually and as a species. We can never know specifically the purpose of existence--or the will of God, or the determination of the Ultimate Math, or, you know, whatever--and therefore can only estimate and hypothesize. Can God make a stone that is too heavy for Him to lift? Can a computer be built to contain the entire Universe in theory without collapsing into paradoxical loop? There are certain things we just cannot do. We cannot look with awe and wonder through naked eyes upon our own faces. We haven't enough capacity, and, in theory, simply cannot have enough, to calculate every factor in the Universe at once. All that space and time we don't know and haven't seen. It seems reasonable to conclude, therefore, that compared to the whole of existence, our finite aspect is insufficient to contain it all. Consider the ratio, though.

In scientifically determining morality, our estimates are so rough as to be generally useless, and therefore relegated to the realm of ethics, which depends, inasmuch as we can confirm, wholly on our own existence and condition.

We haven't enough data, and we cannot collect enough actual data. It will be interesting, however, when the math is tight and data plentiful enough to mathematically assert ethical propriety. At that point, I think the mathematicians will be taken outside and shot. Very few hearts would not break at such a realization that there is a determined order to the Universe, and it has nothing to do with God. (And I'm including a good number of identifying atheists, too.)

But morality itself? That would seem to be a holy grail or godhead for scientific inquiry that, like any religion, can be bent to will.

Okay, I'll stop now. Er, sorry.

:m:
 
Tiassa,

Humans have an innate drive to create laws that facilitate reproductive success. This is the only statement that can scientifically be proven. Evolutionary Psychologists look at our history as well as chimp behavior and lower animals and notice selection pressure for those behavioral patterns that maximize reproductive success: those behaviors that are counter-productive don't get passed on: the genes die out.

Now, when we create laws, we don't state that this or that law will increase reproductive success: we claim instead that the law is created because it is the moral thing to do. This is where the problem is: you can't prove this statement. But, if you stated that "this law will increase overall reproductive success of our nation," then that forms a hypothesis that could then be tested to either confirm or reject.

Laws against rape, random murder, and theft can statistically be shown to increase reproductive success; they can't be proven to be moral.

I can understand superstitious people not thinking like this, but for atheists, they seem to be ignorant of their own belief: they are the product of evolution, and the basic rule underlying evolution is that every nature of humans come into fixation if they are reproductively advantageous, and new behaviors that are created by gene mutations that are advantageous soon go to fixation as well, while non-productive behavior die off or are reduced to a minority genetic status.
 
Charles:

The point is that science cannot be used to prove absolute morality, as such, morality is purely subjective, it's a feeling, not a scientifically proovable entity.

This is a false dichotomy. You are claiming that either morality is purely objective, or it is purely subjective. The truth actually lies between those two extremes.

Some moral arguments are better than others. That is objectively true. For example, if I posit as a system of morals "Do whatever I feel like, and rats to everybody else", nobody (except me) is going to agree that this is as defensible a moral framework as, for example "Everybody should refrain from treating other people in a way that they would not want to be treated themselves."

So, morality is not purely subjective.

Ethics are not reason-based but emotion-based: we "feel" about things being "right" and "wrong," we don't use the Scientific Method to decide it, as such, morality is purely subjective and absolute morality cannot be claimed.

That is just one of many theories of morality. You are asserting that saying "X is bad" is really no more than saying "I personally disapprove of X."

Such a theory is not the only alternative.

Humans have an innate drive to create laws that facilitate reproductive success. This is the only statement that can scientifically be proven.

I'd be very interested if you could prove that.

Laws against rape, random murder, and theft can statistically be shown to increase reproductive success; they can't be proven to be moral.

Show me the statistics, then.
 
I'd be very interested if you could prove that.

Show me the statistics, then.


I don't want to look up the research. But, these claims come from the field of Evolutionary Psychology, which is a science-based field. You can look up the research at http://www.hbes.com/

Regarding morality, you have not shown that science can prove a moral proclamation to be true. My argument is that no one can claim that a certain belief is absolute truth. A Christian can't say: "The Bible is absolute moral truth and it can't be proved or disproved using science: it's just true because I say so."

Moral laws simply come into existence based on sentimental consensus: it's usually elites that invent absolute moral claims and then indoctrinate the public to feel the same way, getting their support/vote resulting in the law being implemented. No science is used, just elites "preaching from the pulpit."
 
Regarding morality, you have not shown that science can prove a moral proclamation to be true.

I never even started to attempt to show that.

Moral laws simply come into existence based on sentimental consensus: it's usually elites that invent absolute moral claims and then indoctrinate the public to feel the same way, getting their support/vote resulting in the law being implemented. No science is used, just elites "preaching from the pulpit."

Now you're shifting from your original view to another one.

One idea of morality is that saying "X is bad" is no more than "I personally disapprove of X."

Here, you introduce another possibility: saying "X is bad" is really saying "A certain community (perhaps ruled over by "elites") disapproves of X."

Again, there are other possibilities.
 
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