US Govt Defends Muslims Rights

Cracking down on Muslims in the big issues and glossing it over by "supporting" the little issues, eh? What the hell is some head scarf issue going to do for Muslims? :bugeye:

--Long Live the Female Messiah.
 
Um, it's called the 1st Amendment, and while some Americans and politicians feel that it's okay to trample it for the sake of 'security' the judicial system has done a pretty damn good job of upholding it.

~Raithere
 
Thank you for posting this link.

It is great to hear that some Americans are still holding their principles dear to them, I raise my hat to those BRAVE AMERICANS who are fighting for Muslim rights.

ALLAH BLESS THEM.
 
Actually, its not a bad thing for muslims to wear the Islamic clothing - we can identify them by it, and we know where they are.
 
Oh yeah, but be careful, some explosive belts might be hidden behind our cloths !!so be very careful !! :D
 
Sad how other religions can't come up with Islam in terms of creative methods of martyrdom. I mean, which other religion has near-institutionalized systems of blowing oneself up with explosive belts in its name?

Come on, come on, Christianity. Come up with something yourself! :D

--Long Live the Female Messiah.
 
Proud_Muslim said:
Oh yeah, but be careful, some explosive belts might be hidden behind our cloths !!so be very careful !! :D

Yes it's a possibility

And its a definite that there's no brains under the towel.
 
Vienna said:
Actually, its not a bad thing for muslims to wear the Islamic clothing - we can identify them by it, and we know where they are.
*************
M*W: Yeah, just like the yellow Stars of David the Jews had to wear on their clothing so the SS would know where they were.
 
Medicine Woman said:
Vienna said:
Actually, its not a bad thing for muslims to wear the Islamic clothing - we can identify them by it, and we know where they are.
*************
M*W: Yeah, just like the yellow Stars of David the Jews had to wear on their clothing so the SS would know where they were.

I suppose it is really, except these days we are identifying the potentially violent ones.
 
Medicine Woman said:
M*W: Yeah, just like the yellow Stars of David the Jews had to wear on their clothing so the SS would know where they were.

Caliph Umar of Islam started that trend, FYI. The Nazis owe the muslims for this idea.
 
Vienna said:
I suppose it is really, except these days we are identifying the potentially violent ones.
*************
M*W: If you recall, the terrorists who flew planes into buildings on 9/11 were all your average clean cut, studious-looking young men who lived quietly among us in the USA.
 
I agree with Raithere that the justice department has done an excellent job of upholding the first amendment.

This should be a reminder to all anti-American Muslim fundamentalists - the US will uphold your rights to freedom of religion even though you continue your hatred towards them.

Try lobbying YOUR government to do the same. Fat chance?
 
Zero said:
Sad how other religions can't come up with Islam in terms of creative methods of martyrdom. I mean, which other religion has near-institutionalized systems of blowing oneself up with explosive belts in its name?

Come on, come on, Christianity. Come up with something yourself! :D

--Long Live the Female Messiah.


It's hard to beat the 72 virgins part. :D
 
Theres more fun in the Islamic heaven than it is in the Christian heaven.

Islamic heaven.

Sex, beer & slaves.

Christian heaven

gold, gold, gold & more boring gold.
pray, pray, pray & more boring prayers.
 
Salaem Aleikum,
That does it, I am becoming a muslim. I have seen the light of the one true religion. Allah will prevail over all you haters! Peace be upon you.
 
Medicine Woman said:
Vienna said:
I suppose it is really, except these days we are identifying the potentially violent ones.
*************
M*W: If you recall, the terrorists who flew planes into buildings on 9/11 were all your average clean cut, studious-looking young men who lived quietly among us in the USA.

Oh but M*W - didn't you know that it is muslim practice to lie and disguise to attack the "enemy" "kafirs" etc.

path has quite rightly pointed this out.....

How moral is lying?? Well according to Allah it is A-OK as long as you are lying to kafirs


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.geocities.com/bharatvarsha1947/January_2003/destroykafirs.htm

Islamic concept of Al-Taqiyah to infiltrate and destroy kafir countries

According to Al-Taqiyah, Muslims were granted the Shar'iyee right (legitimacy) to infiltrate the Dar el-Harb (war zone), infiltrate the enemy's cities and forums and plant the seeds of discord and sedition. These agents were acting on behalf of the Muslim authority at war, and therefore were not considered as lying against or denouncing the tenants of Islam.

They were "legitimate" mujahedeen, whose mission was to undermine the enemy's resistance and level of mobilization. One of their major objectives was to cause a split among the enemy's camp while downplaying the issues related to Islam ("Oh, I am not religious." "Oh, that is not Islam, you are mistaken, there is so much misinformation." "Oh, it is in the interpretation." "Brother, Islam is all about peace and love and music just like in the 60s.") In many instances, they convinced their targeted audiences that Jihad is not aimed at them, that indigenous people are not targeted. Meanwhile the (allegedly) "un Islamic" Muslims continued their attacks on the target's property and life (e.g. Lashkar-e Toyiba, Mujahideen and Osama Bin Laden's
declaration of war against innocent American civilians).


http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch8.html#ch8-7

These are examples of a practice known as taqiyya, which essentially means to lie for the sake of Islam. The intention is to deceive unbelievers about Islam, for the explicit purpose of assuaging doubts and concerns about Islam, and encouraging conversion. Taqiyya underlies the whole gamut of Muslim propaganda which is disseminated in the West, from the claim that Islam promotes equal rights for women, to the attempts at inflating the perceived number of Muslims. All are designed to draw people to Islam, by hook or by crook. The example given before of the Durham imam who went so far as to claim that he would be compelled by his religion to prevent a vandal from destroying the property of a church or synagogue is a typical example of taqiyya. It was said in a public forum for the express purpose of giving an appearance to the Islamic religion which does not reflect reality. Certainly, as has been seen, the historical attitudes of Muslims toward churches and synagogues has NOT been to protect them from vandalism, just the opposite is in fact the case. But, the lie must be told in the public forum so as to present Islam in a positive and tolerant light which will appeal to Westerners, which will cause them to believe that the image of Islam as an intolerant and violent religion are just myths created by Islam's enemies to defame the True Faith.

This sort of sanctified dishonesty is also justified in the minds of many Muslims on the basis that everyone else who opposes Islam is lying. For many Muslims, it is absolutely inconceivable that anyone could ever reject Islam on logical or rational grounds, therefore to claim to do so indicates a failing in intelligence or morality on the part of the infidel. Schuon quite insightfully illuminates us to the attitude of the Muslim mind,


"The intellectual - and thereby the rational - foundation of Islam results in the average Muslim having a curious tendency to believe that non-Muslims either know that Islam is the truth and reject it out of pure obstinacy, or else are simply ignorant of it and can be converted by elementary explanations; that anyone should be able to oppose Islam with a good conscience quite exceeds the Muslim's imagination, precisely because Islam coincides in his mind with the irresistible logic of things."27
This insight elucidates many things which those who deal with Muslims on a regular basis can readily observe. It explains why Muslim apologetic defense of Islam is so often very elementary, even childish, in its presentation, and often quickly breaks down into name-calling against the infidel who has refuted Islamic arguments. It enlightens us as to why Muslims will loudly trumpet the "logic" and "rationality" of Islam while simultaneously defending their faith with circular reasoning and other errors of logic. This is why Muslims can, without any apparent irony, claim that Islam is a "religion of peace", even when the testimony of both history and current events bellows the opposite. For most Muslims, the idea that an infidel could reject Islam because of a sincere concern for knowing the truth is absolutely inconceivable. Hence, the infidel must be lying when he or she present facts and arguments against Islam, and the infidel must be an especially tricky liar when the facts and arguments cannot be answered by the Muslim. Hence, the resort to taqiyya to turn aside infidel lies so that the logic of truth, a priori defined as anything Islamic, will stand firm.

Taqiyya goes beyond mere lying for propaganda purposes. The word comes from a root meaning "to guard against, to keep (oneself)". It thus also includes dissimulation by the Muslim to give the appearance of not being religious, so as not to arouse suspicion. In this vein, a Muslim, if necessary, may eat pork, drink alcohol, and even verbally deny the Islamic faith, as long as he does not "mean it in his heart". If the end result of the lie is perceived by the Muslim to be good for Islam or useful to bringing someone to "submission" to Allah, then the lie can be sanctioned through taqiyya. As al-Tabbarah writes,


"Lying is not always bad, to be sure; there are times when telling a lie is more profitable and better for the general welfare, and for the settlement of conciliation among people, than telling the truth. To this effect, the Prophet says: 'He is not a false person who (through lies) settles conciliation among people, supports good or says what is good."28
The taqiyya concept is also found in the Qur'an,


"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah." (Surah 3:28)
Here, the Muslims are warned against taking unbelievers as friends, except if it will be beneficial to the Muslims as a way of defending Islam against its perceived enemies or preventing loss or danger from coming upon the Muslim because of his faith. In other words, the end justifies the means. If a Muslim must give the outward appearance of not being a Muslim, or must go against the general principle of not befriending infidels, then this is acceptable under the taqiyya doctrine. Keep in mind also that what is defined as "good" by the serious Muslim will be anything that aids the spread and eventual triumph of Islam over competing religions and ideologies. As such, this would tend to encourage infiltration of non-Muslim countries and institutions by Muslims who might pretend to support the organisations they join, but who are really working to undermine these for the greater goal of establishing Islam as supreme. Obvious recent examples of this sort of activity would be the misuse of their positions and access to information by Muslim members of America's armed forces, several of whom have been caught and arrested while attempting to pass information along to al-Qaeda and other militant Islamic terrorist organisations.

Perhaps related to its false presentation of itself is the Islamic tendency towards discouraging open inquiry about itself, by which is meant inquiry that is not shepherded by some sort of Muslim religious authority or a Muslim already well-versed in Islamic dogma. This is most plainly seen in the Islamic teaching that the Qur'an cannot be translated out of Arabic. Per strict Islamic traditional teaching, when the Qur'an is translated into some other language, it instantly ceases to be the true Qur'an, becoming instead a document which has had the admixture of man's thoughts and words interjected into it (presumably as a result of the translation process). Only the Qur'an in Arabic, according to Islam, is the true word of Allah. As a result, there are millions of Muslims all over the world who do not know Arabic, and who, when they respond to the muezzin call and hear the Qur'an chanted in Arabic, have not the slightest idea what is really being said. These people have to rely upon an imam or other religious leader to tell them what the Qur'an says, and what it means. Through this means, Islam maintains and enforces the submission of millions of non-Arab Muslims who have to rely upon the Arabic-speakers for knowledge of what their religion teaches and what their holy book says. Because of this teaching, Islam can be said to take on a role as a knowledge control cult much like the Jehovah's Witnesses (who are "encouraged" to read only what the Watchtower Society publishes) or other cults where independent examination of the religion's doctrines are discouraged or prohibited.

This sort of attitude is exactly what is presented in the Muslim traditions, too. In the Qur'an, we find that Muslims are encouraged not to ask hard questions about their own religion, and the reason is because they might lose their faith in Islam if they do,


"O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith." (Surah 5:102-103)
This discouragement to open questioning is also seen in the ahadith, one of which records that Mohammed was asked about some matters which he did not want to have to answer, and got so angry when the questioner persisted that he grew enraged, red in the face29. Other statements in the ahadith also record Mohammed's adverse reaction to being challenged on the things he taught30. Maududi, one of the most prominent theologians of Islam in the modern age, likewise encourages Muslims to leave off asking the difficult to answer questions about their faith31. The tendency against open questioning and willingness to examine the beliefs of Islam suggests to us that Islam is not really interested in people investigating Islam for the truth's sake (despite what many a Muslim making dawah might say). Rather, it tells us that Islam seeks to suppress its internal inconsistencies and embarrassing teachings, things which might cause the Muslim to doubt his faith and even apostasise if he were to dwell on them.
_________________
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/index.php
 
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Vienna,

I'm really getting tired of this non-stop harassment of Islam. It really indicates a rather truncated view of history and societal development, and the generalizations you make amount to nothing more than bigotry. The problems do not revolve as much around Islam as history, politics, nationalism, and particularly in the control of information.

While PM would try to deny that there are factions of Islam that are purely committed to the destruction of everything that is not Islam you seem to want to deny that there are factions just as committed to compromise, understanding, and peace. In point of fact, neither of you are correct. There are many factions, formal and informal, some on one side some on the other and all the areas in between.

The theories you expound are largely presumptuous and contain critical errors. For instance, we might look at this:

These are examples of a practice known as taqiyya, which essentially means to lie for the sake of Islam. The intention is to deceive unbelievers about Islam, for the explicit purpose of assuaging doubts and concerns about Islam, and encouraging conversion. Taqiyya underlies the whole gamut of Muslim propaganda which is disseminated in the West, from the claim that Islam promotes equal rights for women, to the attempts at inflating the perceived number of Muslims. All are designed to draw people to Islam, by hook or by crook.
Even if we accept that taqiyya is a general practice amongst Muslims such a plan would ultimately backfire. Islam's growth is probably its most powerful limiting factor. As the religion spreads its growing diversity will force moderation and segmentation. Even with such an agenda Islam would find itself changing. While it's population might, as a whole, define itself as Muslim there will be as much variation within that populace as we find in Judaism and Christianity.

You cannot draw purely from one side and pretend to have the whole story.

~Raithere
 
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