UK - Ban on Slapping Children

P

Psycho-Cannon

Home grown and Psycho
Registered Senior Member
Here in the UK a Bill to ban parents giving their (or anyone elses :) ) children anything more than a firm tap on the shoulder by making it illegal and imprisonable has just been defeated, but pressure groups are vowing to fight on to get it banned.

Opinions on discipling children with the use of the slap/spank?

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Imho We see already the problems caused when the state thinks it knows how to raise a child better than the parents and tries to do too much in the best "interests of the children", the recent cot death fiasco being one examplei, also numerous cases of Social services just getting things plain wrong, taking kids that shouldnt be taken, and leaving ones that should be taken (Anna Climbe)

I think it should be that parents are assumed to know best about their situation and decide when a smack is in order, the few parents who go too far and are just plain abusive are already covered under existing legislation for child abuse i'd like to think.
Making such a trivial (yes, trivial) thing an illegal act, that will no doubt go to social services records, is asking for trouble, ciminilasing many more innocent and good parents when abusive or sadistic parents will still be just the same regardless

I also found it intersting that the majority of "MP's" backing the ban said that it was unacceptable to smack a child and quote extreme examples like Anna Climbie, she was not a victim of discipline, she was tortured and abused (and ultimatly murdered) by sadists who are more than covered by existing legislation, and failed by social services who should of taken her into care long before her death.

The same MP's said that they should ban smacking and encourage parents on more constructive methods.

I won't deny there are very good methods, developed by psycologists and experts that work very well and are another step before a smack but does the average parent know these? is your average parent a PHD Child Psychologist?

No?

Well then who's going to teach these parents, are they, before the ban, going to implement, a national, free, training course for all parents, and provide on going support for parents?
Like hell.

Its the old, Ban it, Criminialise the innocent, and forget about it and blame raising youth crime on bad parents later.
Even if they did implement some kind of program to help parents, with our pensions shagged, and the average joe having to work till they die now days who will have time to attend or take up full time parenting? not the majority.

There is a program on UK TV at the moment (Chanel 4) called Who Rules the Roost where 2 parents take 2 weeks off work to become full time parents with the aid of a Child Psychologist who remains out of sight of the family via Radio / the cameras.

Its actually very interesting.
Shes a Psychologist with much study and experience, some of her advice works but goes totally against what i think would be "natural" parenting or even common sense and most of it involves a lot of TIME, something all too many of us just don't have any more, yet it works and she explains why it works and it does make sense.

in fact it had some parents in tears when they had to ignore their kid and pretend they werent there or walk off without them and watch them dispair as they thought they were lost.
It certainly installed strong lessons in their heads and they behaved a lot better but the average parent isn't going to know these things or try them.

She also makes a very valid point, you CAN'T reason with a 2 year old, yet the Do Gooders would have us belive differently, that simply telling a child that something is bad will miraculously make sure they never do it.

I grew up with my mum who is a traditionaly short chinese woman (bless :))
Me and my brother were twice her size by our early teens thus you can imagine when we were totally out of control she had to resort to something rather larger than her voice or fists to get us to sit up and pay attention.
Unfortuantly this meant occasionaly we'd get caught on a sharp end of something and i've got a few scars that will probably be with me till the day i die but at the end of the day we sure as hell remebered what was right and wrong and i like to think we grew up very well and balanced (not emotionally repressed as some "experts" would like us to belive).
Never had trouble with the law, still love my parents, intergrate into society perfectly fine and from what people tell me to my face me and my brother are perfectly nice, healthy people, and i think our up bringing helped.
Basically it didn't do me any harm :).

I hate to imagine the youth we would end up with if they find out that the government have effectivly turned round and told them look.
Your Parents are just poowerless keepers, we run the show, you don't like your parents or they try to disciplin you, just call us, we'll chuck the bad bad people in jail and get you new parents....
 
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I absolutely agree with you. I was shocked to hear an attempted ban on 'REASONABLE' physical punishment. Like you said, if you're beating your child up with a cricket bat than you're going to get locked up anyway, irrespective of whether there's a smacking ban or not.
So why the fuck are these morons trying to dictate how we punish our children? The reason is because they're dickheads who can't differentiate between abusement and punishment. And that's about all there is to it.
 
I beleive that it is acceptable for parents to give a CONTROLLED tap on the hands or butt to their children.
At the same time, I also think that children are the most abused group of humans on earth. -- even in western cultures.

Take this case as an example where 2 boys were caged and beaten by their parents:

"They were kept in diapers because they couldn't get to the washroom, subjected to rectal examinations and regularly beaten with a variety of household implements.

Court heard the boys lived in such fear that they ate their own feces to hide evidence of accidents and, deprived of water, felt compelled to drink their own urine."

The parents were sentenced to 9 months in jail. What's even worse is that after it was all over, after 13 years of abuse, and after eating their own shit, the brothers were separated (apparently):

"Both are in separate foster care and going to high school".

This single matter-of-fact line at the end of the article made me furious. Am I the only one who sees that it is wrong to separate the 2 boys?!!
 
indeed, 2 points to make here.

1), this is an extreme example ( i hope!!! ) and doesn't justify the new laws as they are already MORE than covered under existing legislation on child abuse and common assault, battery etc.

2) Yes social services made a bad decison imho by splitting them up, these poor kids went through hell by the sounds of it, no doubt they formed quite a bond, they are important to each other.
To split them both after such an orderal and thrust them alone into new lives is asstoundingly insensetive and i'm sure less then helpful.
They probably would be beter together as brothers.
 
Ahhh, another narrow issue.

"Well then who's going to teach these parents, are they, before the ban, going to implement, a national, free, training course for all parents, and provide on going support for parents?"

I like the idea of that. But still no need to ban smacking.

The thing is, the cot death fiasco adn cases of social workers being wrong, arent actually "the state" thinking it can raise children better, but extreme misdiagnosis and bad personal performance on part of the one doing the organising. You havnt said your against all social work and cot death investigations, yet use these mistakes as examples of how the state is trying to take over child raising. All that is required is properly trained and looked after social workers (and they'll still make mistakes, how often do you make mistakes in your job?) and with decent feedback loops so that parents who have had their children taken away wrongly get them back asap. The case of abused children, well, where do you want to draw the line? For example, teachers noticing things wrong with the child, would you be willing to allow them to report it to the social workers? Do you understand that it is likely that many will be investigated for every one that is found to actually be being abused?
If you think things should be done when things are wrong, you have to accept that mistakes shall be made. Think of it like friendly fire incidents. People who accept them argue that the end outweighs the immediate horror, and the same goes for social work departments etc. At the moment I think the good outweighs the bad, but it is hard to say for sure. I dont have a month to investigate our local social work dept and see what it actually does.
 
It's just pc bollox....it's the fact that we aren't meant to be smacking our kids that makes them grow up to be Burberry cap wearing black wannabees that cause trouble all the time. Nobody is scared of their Dad's (or Mum's) wrath anymore...
 
But you have to consider is that if you're hit as a child you may want to take out your frustrations later on thus making you violent.
 
I'm not sure how I feel about this issue, but let me say this in response to what was said by a few of you. I was never smacked, slapped, touched by either of my parents, but by careful use of the spoken word, I feared my father greatly. I think a lot of times parents use physical measures to discipline their children where if they were more patient they'd be able to do just as well by speaking, restricting, and motivating their children to do better.

Smacking a child doesn't guarentee that they'll respect or obey you. It comes down to the child and the nature/nurture in which they were brought up.

Just my two cents!

Best wishes,
Will Kirby

www: www.wkirby.com
e-mail: wkirby@gmail.com
 
Thor said:
But you have to consider is that if you're hit as a child you may want to take out your frustrations later on thus making you violent.
Click to expand...

Not when you consider smacking as 'reasonable'. If you employ all the different methods of punishment and if you're a responsible person, then your son/daughter isn't going to grow up to become a 'wanker', because punishment is the cheif way of instilling responsibility in children! But of course, if you're irresponsible, and beating you're child up with some sort of cattle prob or something, then he's inevitably going to grow up to be one angry 'motherfucker'. But we're not talking about running children down in our cars or setting fire to their clothes or using cattleprods, we're simply employing mild physical punishment, which some complete wanker wanted to ban. Because he's a wanker./
 
As I am not a parent I cannot fully 'appreciate' the uses of smacking. The actual use of violence in rearing children has both it's pros and cons.

An obvious pro is that it teaches your child to respect you to an extent. It also encourages them to learn right from wrong.

But on the con side that respect isn't rightfully earned by the parents. Along with encouraging right from wrong, it could also warp their concept of violence. The child could think (mentioned above I believe) that if they hit someone they would get their own way and their own respect.

As someone who was often exessivly punished using the smacking system I'm torn. On one hand it's made me respect authority figures (including said parent) and that has meant that I have kept a clear criminal record and concerntrated at school. In a way that punishment has made me who I am today. But I consider smacking to be a sign of poor parenting. It appears to be something a parent might do as a last resort to get their child to comply. I would rather teach them morals at an early stage and encourage them with experience and logic. That way the child will always have that respect and will carry it throughout their lives. Sometimes I wish that was the way I was brought up. I often resent the parent that conducted such activities against me and I also fear that parent although their opinion has minimal effect on me.

I am rambling and will stop now.
 
Good to see this topic has kept quite sensible.

Anyone in the UK seen that tv program, I think its called "little angels"? It follows families that are having trouble with their children, and then they get a child behaviorual whatever specialist in, who in the ones ive seen/ overheard whilst sewing, has managed to sort out many of the families. Usually without the child needing smacking. Parenting is a hard job, perhaps one reason so many people manage to ignore their biological urges and not have any children.

AS for children not being scare dof their parents wrath, many of the problem children a teacher I know has to deal with are like that because their parents arent wrathful at all to their children, even when they deserve it. The children are deceitful little buggers, and their parents are morons who think the sun shines out of their fundament. The parents will sometimes come up to school and complain about, say little jonny being kept in at playtime. but he was hitting the boy next to him, comes the reply. Parent goes away, and perhaps half heartedly tells child not to lie to them. Child continues being a problem in class. I blame the parents.
 
I have seen children that have been raised without spanking and it has made a firm believer in beating the shit out of brats.

Thor,

I was smacked up good as a child, and I'm a pacifists. I have seen little kids that are raise on a no spankings policy that are very violent.
 
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I was brought up with a spare the rod spoil the child kind of discipline. Beating never was a good choice of punishments for me it just made me tougher. My mom pretty much gave up on physical punishment when she broke a wooden soon on me and I handed her another one. No form of discipline will work without consistency. If you are beat for something one day and the behavior is ignored the next then all the disciplining does is instill fear and uncertainty.
 
I thought that all this no-spanking time out discipline was weak-kneed liberal claptrap. My sister fell for that garbage and has raised to very polite and intelligent girls. I have had to re-evaluate my opinion of the non-violent method of child rearing. I also do not like what spanking teaches children. “We don’t hit people” smacking the kid. This teaches the kid that we only hit those that are weaker than us which is not the lesson that I wish to teach. I think that I will do my best to raise my children with the very minimum of smacking that is necessary but I don’t think that we should eliminate any options that we do not have to for raising children. Today’s world makes it hard enough to be a parent without the state making it any harder.
 
Psycho-Cannon said:
Here in the UK a Bill to ban parents giving their (or anyone elses :) ) children anything more than a firm tap on the shoulder by making it illegal and imprisonable has just been defeated, but pressure groups are vowing to fight on to get it banned.

Opinions on discipling children with the use of the slap/spank?
Click to expand...

Spanking (or any other type of physical punishment) is meant to be a
negative renforcer. The message is:

"Do something OR don't do something and you will suffer"

I suspect some folks in the UK don't like the thought of children suffering
and are trying to make a situation where parents will suffer if their children
do.

A big problem with this type of "law" (or many other laws for that matter)
is that it's a negative reinforcer. It's just another societal landmine that a
person will have to avoid during their lives.

Perhaps there is way to promote non-abusive disciple without parental
suffering. I wonder if lawmakers ever considered positive re-inforcement.
If a child could somehow validate they are not being abused (I am sure
someone could come up with creative / cost effective implementation),
then give the parents a tax-writeoff. The message here is that parents
will attain greater financial wealth if they treat their children properly.
Just a thought.
 
I was raised in a society where people absolutely believe in beating you up as a form of discipline. I grew up there. I doubt if you'd want it, but let's assume, hypothetically, that someone would like to hear my opinion on it.

I frankly don't give a damn if spanking/smacking kids as a form of discipline is banned or not. It doesn't make a different. Watching kids in the U.S., where spanking kids in school could legally screw you up, and comparing the kids who were spanked as kids, I doubt if it makes a difference.

I'll just argue both sides, since I'm bored.

*ahem*

Spanking kids shouldn't be banned.

Some kids must be disciplined by force, and they need to learn to fear their parents. When teachers/parents must deal with a large number of kids, reasoning every conflict out is unrealistic and inefficient at best.

The application of swift and harsh punishment in response to wrongdoing is a very effective method of removing unwanted behavior.
(Er, the only source I have to cite right now is my Psychology textbook. I do remember it was yellow, large, hardcover, and had "modules" instead of chapters)

It's only when the punishment is given inconsistently that it becomes ineffective and just an excuse for neighbors to harass the punisher.

As for the horror stories about spanking, they're no less horrible or degrading than horror stories about dogs, cats (yes, cats. My high school chem teacher's daughter accidentally closed the door on her cat's tail, and it completely shredded her leg to the bone. She was shipped off via 911), guns (yes, it's odd how zealously Americans defend their "right to bear arms"), kitchen knives, et cetera. Even computers. I've heard horror stories about kids getting so addicted to computer games they died of exhaustion. And as if "rectal examinations" or rapes don't occur where spanking is banned?

Thus, the horror stories are meaningless.


Spanking should be banned.

An educator, whether teacher or parent, who depends too much on physical punishment is implicitly lessening the value of diplomacy and reasoning in the eyes of the kids. The message is, "might makes right" (forgive me for using that dumb cliche, I'm just lazy right now).

Also, physical punishment gives too much temptation for the educator to punish more than is necessary. In some cases, the educator can make it personal.
(Seen both happen. Not pretty.)

Physical punishment often has nothing to do with what the kid did wrong. Improperly given, there is no reasoning. There is only pain. Spanking a kid for spraying oil all over the kitchen is less effective than making the kid clean up the damn place by himself. See what I mean? Punishment is effective when the kid knows why he's being punished, and what he should do to avoid punishment in the future.

The greatest drawback, I think, about physical punishment is that it becomes completely ineffective once the kid becomes inured to such pain. It will get to the point that the kid will begin to consider physical punishment as a sort of joke, thus not learning anything.
(Yup. At first, I was utterly terrified of the first rod I ever saw, and it was like a little twig. A year later, I laughed at those huge 6-foot wooden cudgels. I adapted a bit too quickly for the system.

Unfortunately, the teachers caught on that none of the students actually were scared of the rod, and they started lowering grades for each offense. THAT scared all of us. :eek: )

And admit it. If you advocate physical punishment staying legal, it's probably because you were smacked around as a kid. ;) We know your dirty little heart's whisperings. Ehuehe.
 
The matter is that every child is different and as such different parenting techniques work best on different child. I have seen children raised on non-corporal punishment that are nice a polite (they are all girls by the way, coincidence maybe.) I have also seen and had to deal with those who this system fail them. I think as a parent you should be open to what ever you need to raise your child to be a functional, stable and good adult. If not spanking them is working, good for you; if its not working and your child is a brat don’t just sit though it and think this is the right way no matter what, try different things including whacking their ass (or feet like my Italian father like to). Some kids might need psychotic help, drug, ADD and ADHD are real disorders (though most likely over prescribed).
 
I'm no biologist, but whacking their feet might be bad for them. easier for fleshy and not so nice parts like the back of the calf, or the backside. Feet have too many little bones and nice tendons in them.
 
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