True Biological death

[youreyes]

In order for the organism to completely die, all the cells of the body must die. Correct?

If that is the case, no father and mother ever biologically died, if their child survived and passed on to new generations.

The father passes on his one sperm cell to the development of a child.
The mother passes on her egg to development of a child.

Both of those cells pass their genetic material to every cell of their future child, thus in a way replicating themselves.
The result is that both the mother and father never really die. In addition to those cells becoming alive, they give rise to consciousness, something we all possess.

So why are we so afraid of death if we clearly know that we reincarnate? (Forget memories, those are passed to the child when parents are alive)

 

[Buddha12]

I do not know how many people "fear" death but I am NOT one of them. There are many who don't fear death for many reasons, religions are just one thing that they believe in that tells them it will be a better "life" after death in "heaven" or wherever there religion takes them. I don't think that is true but think that my atoms will be dispersed and end up reforming something liker another sun, planet or a rock here on Earth.

So while I will not "reincarnate" my being manifesting itself in some life form, I could become a part of a lifeform through my atoms mingling with those animals. But my thoughts, ideas and other emotions will never be known again nor the way I think about things for that part can't be carried over through atoms.

 

[youreyes]

I do not know how many people "fear" death but I am NOT one of them. There are many who don't fear death for many reasons, religions are just one thing that they believe in that tells them it will be a better "life" after death in "heaven" or wherever there religion takes them. I don't think that is true but think that my atoms will be dispersed and end up reforming something liker another sun, planet or a rock here on Earth.

So while I will not "reincarnate" my being manifesting itself in some life form, I could become a part of a lifeform through my atoms mingling with those animals. But my thoughts, ideas and other emotions will never be known again nor the way I think about things for that part can't be carried over through atoms.

But atoms do not harbor consciousness. Meanwhile a cell that is part of a new child, will be part of consciousness.

I feel as a cell is the smallest possible way to pass on life without dying. The atoms of us that will become part of a sun or just dust circling around Earth...they do not harbor consciousness, so we will never really experience it and time will not be felt either.

 

[elte]

But atoms do not harbor consciousness. Meanwhile a cell that is part of a new child, will be part of consciousness.

I feel as a cell is the smallest possible way to pass on life without dying. The atoms of us that will become part of a sun or just dust circling around Earth...they do not harbor consciousness, so we will never really experience it and time will not be felt either.

It's the totality of every particular circumstance and individual physical characteristic that makes us, us. It's impossible for that to be transfered somewhere else. The technology is probably remote by centuries in the future, if ever. There is no way to continue the state of self in the transfer even if an exact copy in every way could be produced. That is, one would not feel as if one is in the copy.

 

[youreyes]

It's the totality of every particular circumstance and individual physical characteristic that makes us, us. It's impossible for that to be transfered somewhere else. The technology is probably remote by centuries in the future, if ever. There is no way to continue the state of self in the transfer even if an exact copy in every way could be produced. That is, one would not feel as if one is in the copy.

but you already play games and forget about your body, submerged into game experience. All it really takes to feel in another place/time is for consciousness to be present there. There is no need for exact copy at all.

 

[Buddha12]

but you already play games and forget about your body, submerged into game experience. All it really takes to feel in another place/time is for consciousness to be present there. There is no need for exact copy at all.

That is not reincarnation then.

 

[elte]

but you already play games and forget about your body, submerged into game experience. All it really takes to feel in another place/time is for consciousness to be present there. There is no need for exact copy at all.

I agree with the part about not needing an exact copy, now that you've mentioned it. It's the continuity of self that gets broken in the transfer, and there isn't any way to prevent that discontinuity. In the transfer, the sense of self is completely lost and it cannot be added in.

 

[elte]

...All it really takes to feel in another place/time is for consciousness to be present there...

Yet the consciousness is inside the person's brain still, rather than in that other time or place the person is conscious of.

 

[youreyes]

Yet the consciousness is inside the person's brain still, rather than in that other time or place the person is conscious of.

And who says there can't be a discontinuity within consciousness? When we sleep our selves are lost to dreams, we are merely observers. The new consciousness can be harbored within the child, their brain is the product of mothers and father DNA code.

 

[elte]

My answer was lacking accuracy and I'll start over. It's in the network of cells of the brain where the self resides and there isn't any way to transfer that. Even clones of us would not have it.

 

[youreyes]

My answer was lacking accuracy and I'll start over. It's in the network of cells of the brain where the self resides and there isn't any way to transfer that. Even clones of us would not have it.

How do you know that? I do agree with network of brain cells where the consciousness arises. But who is to say that consciousness is not transferred if the organism harbors the very same DNA in every cell the original organism came from?

 

[elte]

How do you know that? I do agree with network of brain cells where the consciousness arises. But who is to say that consciousness is not transferred if the organism harbors the very same DNA in every cell the original organism came from?

Our selves are the result of our uniquely particular circumstances that add up during life, continuously affecting the brain cell networks, and changing them in an ongoing way. New clones wouldn't have that. The only way to transfer a self to a new body would be by physically transplanting a person's physical brain. So if the head were transplanted onto a clone, that could work.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

How do you know that? I do agree with network of brain cells where the consciousness arises. But who is to say that consciousness is not transferred if the organism harbors the very same DNA in every cell the original organism came from?

Because consciousness is more than DNA. The DNA is simply the blueprint for the brain cells (and all the rest of our cells).

Thought, reasoning, memory, dreaming, consciousness--all of the functions that A) give our species the abilities it has and B) define us as individuals who change slightly with every passing millisecond (actually the brain's processing cycle at the conscious level is probably 1/100th of a second or even 1/50th, not 1/1000th)--are performed by the brain but this performance is greatly affected by circumstances. Surely you've met at least one pair of identical twins who look alike and share a lot of general characteristics, but they do not move or speak in unison.

So to answer your question: If someone can create an exact duplicate of your body, right down to the electrochemical charge in each individual nerve and brain cell, then when you both wake up that other fellow will indeed be an exact duplicate of you, right down to your memories, preferences, and whatever you had planned to do this afternoon.

But a few seconds later, the difference in experience between the two of you will cause you to diverge. Sure, for a while, maybe even a few weeks or longer, you'll be finishing each other's sentences and arguing over who gets the last Pepsi. But what happens when you go home to your wife and she says, "Hold on there a minute, guys. I've had only one husband for the last five years and I'm going to keep it that way. You can decide for yourselves, since you're still so similar that I wouldn't be able to tell you apart anyway. But if you can't do that, I'm going to make you play rock-paper-scissors five times and the winner gets me. The other one gets to find a new home and spend some time wondering why he was so stupid as to participate in this ridiculous experiment."

At that point you will most certainly not be the same person as your clone. Losing a wife will change any man into a much different person. Losing her this way will be such a terrible experience that the idiot scientist who thought of doing this without warning you of the ramifications should be shot. Him and all of his clones.

 

[leopold]

I do not know how many people "fear" death but I am NOT one of them.

right.
all it takes is for you to make one step to keep from being splattered and you want us to believe you won't take it?

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

all it takes is for you to make one step to keep from being splattered and you want us to believe you won't take it?

People who take reasonable actions to avoid death are not necessarily afraid of it. We all have people who depend on us. As I've said before, suicide is an extremely selfish act for anyone who is not facing end-of-life issues when it's merely a choice of "when," not "if." At a younger age, allowing yourself to be killed when it's rather easily avoided isn't much different from suicide.

As I've also said before, I have a hunch that many younger people who commit suicide want to hurt the grieving people they leave behind. These are the people they blame for the unbearable way they feel. Adolescents especially, many of whom go through growth cycles when their hormones are out of balance almost every day, have no one to blame for those unpredictable emotions but their elders. They know it's not their fault (and in most cases it's not) so who else is there in their life to blame? Parents, extended family, teachers, priests, coaches, friends... They're not quite to the stage where they can think of blaming Obama.

This is why an adult might manipulate circumstances to make it look like his death was an accident. In Germany most single-car fatal wrecks are suicides. The car companies investigate but they don't share their findings with anyone, because it would invalidate the victim's life insurance policy, often one of the main motivators. Whereas the young person wants everyone he leaves behind to think it's their fault.

 

[Read-Only]

right.
all it takes is for you to make one step to keep from being splattered and you want us to believe you won't take it?

That's FAR from what it can be about, Leo.

I've no way of knowing what *his* reasons are but I can tell you why I don't fear death. Also, I'm not trying to rush it - so I naturally try to avoid accidents just like anyone else.

I'n my case, it's because of the losses I've suffered over these long, long years. I'll be 70 in just a few days and I'm the kind of guy who gets VERY attached to people - and even pets. I've lost both my parents, a son when he was just 18, 12 aunts and 12 uncles. In addition, there were several members of my wife's family that were very close and that I cared about a great deal. Besides all those, I've lost nearly 50 very close friends. There have also been many pets that I've raised and cared about a great deal.

It all adds up over time, Leo, and I cannot help thinking about them EVERY SINGLE DAY. *EVERY* DAY.

Yes, I regret the thought of all the things I want to do that I won't be able to accomplish/finish. But in the final analysis, it will be a relief from the painful loss that I'm now enduring every single day. That's why I don't fear death.

 

[Asexperia]

"This topic has the DNA of Epiphenomena thread".

When the sperm is expelled, It isn't part of the father anymore. Either the egg is part of the mother. That's naive. I don't believe in reincarnation. Any type of reincarnation. That's superstition. Fingerprints are different of DNA.

 

[Asguard]

People who take reasonable actions to avoid death are not necessarily afraid of it. We all have people who depend on us. As I've said before, suicide is an extremely selfish act for anyone who is not facing end-of-life issues when it's merely a choice of "when," not "if." At a younger age, allowing yourself to be killed when it's rather easily avoided isn't much different from suicide.

As I've also said before, I have a hunch that many younger people who commit suicide want to hurt the grieving people they leave behind. These are the people they blame for the unbearable way they feel. Adolescents especially, many of whom go through growth cycles when their hormones are out of balance almost every day, have no one to blame for those unpredictable emotions but their elders. They know it's not their fault (and in most cases it's not) so who else is there in their life to blame? Parents, extended family, teachers, priests, coaches, friends... They're not quite to the stage where they can think of blaming Obama.

This is why an adult might manipulate circumstances to make it look like his death was an accident. In Germany most single-car fatal wrecks are suicides. The car companies investigate but they don't share their findings with anyone, because it would invalidate the victim's life insurance policy, often one of the main motivators. Whereas the young person wants everyone he leaves behind to think it's their fault.

Got any evidence for that stupid assertion? Concidering that one person was warned for suggesting that taking steroids might be the reason Armstrong got cancer (with the justification that "someone here might be experiencing testicular cancer") would you like to justify (with clincial studies please) your assertion that depressed people commit suicide not to end there suffering but just to hurt those around them?

 

[leopold]

Yes, I regret the thought of all the things . . .

the post wasn't meant to hurt any feelings.
it was merely to show that these people that say "i do not fear death" are also lovers of life.
it basically boils down to your character, courageous or wimpy.
i've been in situations where a cool head saved my life, i didn't have to fight for it.
when a person points a gun at you and says he intends to use it . . .
well, suffice it to say i seen my first truely white person.

 

[billvon]

In order for the organism to completely die, all the cells of the body must die. Correct?

If that is the case, no father and mother ever biologically died, if their child survived and passed on to new generations.

Well, by that definition, many people will never die; freezing cord blood is not uncommon nowadays, and that has a very long shelf life. But that's not what most people think of as "living."