Travel to N. Korea and other 'rouge' nations

M

Mrs.Lucysnow

Valued Senior Member
How many of you here, given the chance, would agree to a trip to the DPRK? On one of these tours:

http://www.koryogroup.com/

What would be your objections? I'm planning such a trip after a trip to Myanmar. I know a few who have done so and found it immeasurably fascinating, especially Myanmar in terms to the culture and people.

What about Iran? Or any 'rogue' state that isn't at war and is able to accept foreign tourists even if there are restrictions.

I am amazed at how much of American press and US orgs are against such trips when there are still many from other parts of the world that have no issue with such travel. Is it all simply about politics? And if so would you allow your politics to disallow you from experiencing another country?

So for those who are upset with the Palestinian situation for example, would you consider a trip to Israel? Even just in the interest of coming to your own conclusions of the people and the culture or the 'air' if you will.

I'm shocked for example of how many americans do not know that they are indeed allowed to legally travel into N. Korea and Iran with an issued visa. So knowing that would you be interested?

By the way for anyone who's British and would want to go to Israel but also visit other arab nations where that visit would inhibit visas. Get two passports. Its entirely legal to ask for another passport where those pesky visas are not in the document. The embassy doesn't like to advertise it but they cannot deny you the right. I am not sure if the same holds true for the US but it wouldn't surprise me.
 
I would like to travel to Israel, but my passport has too many stamps from Arab countries and I am a Muslim. After what happened to University of Miami president, Donna Shalala I can see that it would be difficult. For the same reason, I would not be able to travel to the Palestinian territories. Even going through Rafah would be a problem. The West Bank is definitely not an option.

My neighbors [uknowwho] dad has worked in Iran for several decades. According to him, Iran is a great place to visit.
 
S.A.M. said:
I would like to travel to Israel, but my passport has too many stamps from Arab countries and I am a Muslim. After what happened to University of Miami president, Donna Shalala I can see that it would be difficult. For the same reason, I would not be able to travel to the Palestinian territories. Even going through Rafah would be a problem. The West Bank is definitely not an option.

My neighbors dad [uknowwho] has worked in Iran for several decades. According to him, Iran is a great place to visit.
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Being a muslim doesn't prohibit you from visiting Israel, that is just nonsense. You would have to show some strange connection to some group or another they find a security problem. Darling I don't know about the University of Miami incident so you will have to clue me and explain how that would have any impact on you. Also it is not every arab country that Israel denies visa after a visit but even still you can request a new passport Sam and the stamps from other arab countries would not be there. Also its not just them, their are other nations that would deny you after traveling to Israel.

"Travellers intending to visit Arab countries (other than Egypt, Jordan or United Arab Emirates) after leaving Israel should ensure that their passport does not contain Israeli visas or stamps, otherwise entry into Arab countries with such passports will be denied; it is sometimes possible to have a separate sheet of paper stamped instead. However if travelling to the Occupied Territories proof of entry to Israel must be shown in passports."


http://www.wordtravels.com/Travelguide/Countries/Israel/Visa



Visa/Crossing the border
The info you find here was taken from the Lonely planet Thorn tree.

All Arab countries of the Middle East, the Gulf and North Africa (except Egypt, Jordan and Morocco), as well as Iran, some African countries and a few other Muslim countries in Asia, refuse entry to travellers whose passport bears evidence of a visit to Israel. 'Evidence' means Israeli stamps of any kind (entry or exit, or visas for other countries issued in Tel Aviv), plus entry or exit stamps from the Egyptian border posts at Taba (near Eilat) and Rafah (Gaza Strip), or the Jordanian border posts at the Sheikh Hussein Bridge (near Irbid), the King Hussein Bridge (near the Dead Sea) or the Wadi Araba crossing (between Aqaba and Eilat).

ISRAEL: Will *always*, at all borders and airports, stamp you in and out on a piece of paper rather than in your passport, if you ask them forcefully enough. This fact solves 99% of 'keeping Israel out of my passport' problems. Free visas issued to everybody on arrival.

http://www.1000traveltips.org/newpage12.htm

So if no restrictions applies save your fears would you consider going? I mean in the interest of broadened experience and knowledge even if limited.
 
We're not allowed two passports in India. But yeah I can enquire. Being Indian also gives me an advantage. But being a Muslim is a serious disadvantage especially if your name proclaims it, for entry into Israel. I've been discouraged by everyone I asked [friends in travel agencies]. Donna Shalala has an Arab last name [I guess you'd have to be familiar with Arab names to know that] She is an American of Lebanese descent and went to Israel recently to offer her support against BDS, she was picked up at the airport by the Shin Bet and taken for interrogation. Thats not my idea of a vacation. :p

I'm trying to locate an Indian Jewish connection from Mumbai to Israel. If I can get that, I will go.
 
S.A.M. said:
We're not allowed two passports in India. But yeah I can enquire. Being Indian also gives me an advantage. But being a Muslim is a serious disadvantage especially if your name proclaims it, for entry into Israel. I've been discouraged by everyone I asked [friends in travel agencies]. Donna Shalala has an Arab last name [I guess you'd have to be familiar with Arab names to know that] She is an American of Lebanese descent and went to Israel recently to offer her support against BDS, she was picked up at the airport by the Shin Bet and taken for interrogation. Thats not my idea of a vacation. :p
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You may not be allowed two passports but you are allowed to a new passport, this is true in most countries. You do not have to fill every page to be allowed a new passport.

Sam is your religion stamped into your passport? I know in most countries they don't even ask you what religion you are as a national when issuing a passport never mind including it into the passport.

There are muslims who do travel into Israel for vacation without incident. Why is it that you think as a muslim you would be denied? Its like americans saying they fear going into N. Korea simply because they are american when in actuality it isn't true.

I mean if you told me that every muslim has a problem entering Israel, which I know for a fact isn't true, then I would agree but you are basing this on fears and a few incidents and not on the reality.

There have been muslims detained by the US government, some even experienced 'extreme rendition' and yet you did not have such an experience entering into the US as a foreign national who is also muslim.

My question is why were you not afraid to enter the US when there have been numerous incidents of people being detained and interrogated upon arrival most of whom have been muslim?

By the way I have also been stopped and interrogated in the 'little room' by US immigration because of places I have been prior to return. Its always very funny to have someone ask you while they look through your belongings "Why Cambodia?" "Why Laos?" etc. My answer is always "why not?" :D

Trust me when I say that after my next two jaunts into foreign terrain I will come across even more intense 'little room' experiences.
 
According to my sources, Muslim women travelling alone are almost always picked up by Israelis. I would probably get mad and pick a fight if they interrogated me for over 20 minutes [average interrogation time is 2 hours].
 
S.A.M. said:
According to my sources, Muslim women travelling alone are almost always picked up by Israelis. I would probably get mad and pick a fight if they interrogated me for over 20 minutes [average interrogation time is 2 hours].
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Not just muslim women Sam. I know of a British national who has family in Israel and because she works with a human rights org she was also interrogated for hours. But they let her in anyway.

What I am asking you is this. If you were assured that you would not be unduly harassed upon arrival would you take the chance to go?

Also you did not explain me why you were not afraid to travel to the US as a muslim woman. They are just as strict with foreign tourists on arrival, especially these days and yet you had no fear of going. What's the difference?

I believe the fears are in our mind more than actual risk of any real harm. I will give you an example, I know people who are afraid to visit Cambodia, they think its all war and mayhem and lawlessness and yet they have no fear of going into Thailand where there are bombings in the south, bombings in Bangkok, yellow shirts shutting down their international airport stranding tourists, and red shirts attempting a coup on the streets of bangkok burning down tourist places. You never hear of this in Cambodia which is relatively peaceful by comparison and yet there is more fear of coming to Cambodia than there is of going to Thailand.
 
Lucysnow said:
Not just muslim women Sam. I know of a British national who has family in Israel and because she works with a human rights org she was also interrogated for hours. But they let her in anyway.

What I am asking you is this. If you were assured that you would not be unduly harassed upon arrival would you take the chance to go?

Also you did not explain me why you were not afraid to travel to the US as a muslim woman. They are just as strict with foreign tourists on arrival, especially these days and yet you had no fear of going. What's the difference?
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I've never heard of similar interrogations of Muslim women in the US. Although I did get marked for extra security check every single time. They even broke my suitcase locks once [it was unlocked, but it was a Samsung suitcase from Mumbai and had some fancy locks] going into Chicago. I could not get the suitcase repaired there - they don't have those same locks - and had to travel back to India with my favourite Suitcase packed in secure wrap. :mad:

My Korean friend however was interrogated for over an hour and was quite distraught, her command of English is poor and she had difficulties communicating and came away quite disturbed by all the questions.

I believe the fears are in our mind more than actual risk of any real harm
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I agree with that, but I am single and have an old dad who depends on me and is a worrier. My family is over protective and given to panic attacks. I don't like to borrow trouble if I can help it, because I dislike creating hassles for others more than myself.
 
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S.A.M. said:
I've never heard of similar interrogations of Muslim women in the US. Although I did get marked for extra security check every single time. They even broke my suitcase locks once [it was unlocked, but it was a Samsung suitcase from Mumbai and had some fancy locks] going into Chicago. I could not get the suitcase repaired there - they don't have those same locks - and had to travel back to India with my favourite Suitcase packed in secure wrap. :mad:

My Korean friend however was interrogated for over an hour and was quite distraught, her command of English is poor and she had difficulties communicating and came away quite disturbed by all the questions.
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Of course they interrogate women as well as men. I myself have been interrogated. As for the locks they will always break them unless they are TSA locks, they do this for security reasons and they do it almost all the time to everyone. If you want to lock your suitcase going into or out of the US then you should purchase a TSA lock which they have a master key to open and will open and the re-lock the suitcase. If you don't do that then you are out of luck. I use TSA locks and my luggage though searched has always been relocked.

You may have missed my last edit:

I believe the fears are in our mind more than actual risk of any real harm. I will give you an example, I know people who are afraid to visit Cambodia, they think its all war and mayhem and lawlessness and yet they have no fear of going into Thailand where there are bombings in the south, bombings in Bangkok, yellow shirts shutting down their international airport stranding tourists, and red shirts attempting a coup on the streets of bangkok burning down tourist places. You never hear of this in Cambodia which is relatively peaceful by comparison and yet there is more fear of coming to Cambodia than there is of going to Thailand.

This is why I asked you why you fear going into Israel but not the US? The US has laws that mirror those of Israel and are just as likely to affect you but that didn't fill you with fear of going.

Oh please honey, tell your Korean friend that I have been interrogated recently almost every time I have returned to the US and kept waiting etc.

I consider it common fair. I don't fear them. They are unlikely to deport me. Actually its a ruse to see if you fit any profiles that they have missed before you enter the country. As you know 80% of americans do not have a passport and so do not travel, so if you have an american that is a serious traveler then they will be targeted. Did you know they have a legal right to take your computer and check the hard drive before returning it? Did you know that they have done this to journalists as well and there isn't a damn thing one can do about it? Falls under the new security laws.

SAM: I agree with that, but I am single and have an old dad who depends on me and is a worrier. My family is over protective and given to panic attacks. I don't like to borrow trouble if I can help it, because I dislike creating hassles for others more than myself.

THAT I can wholly appreciate. My mother however is a cynic sitting around waiting to hear that I've been detained somewhere where there is an international incident. Gotta love my mom! She's just amazed it hasn't happened yet:D
 
I don't know what a TSA lock is, my suitcase is like this [Samsonite, not Samsung] and they broke the locks of the suitcase even though the suitcase was unlocked- cost me 800 bucks to replace them at Samsonite in Mumbai

samsonitejpg.th.jpg


That suitcase has gone through local airports, Dubai, Kuwait, Jeddah, Riyadh, Milan, Frankfurt, London for the last 10 years, its only the Americans who have broken it.

Like I said, if I get a "connection" there, I will go, otherwise not.

I avoid going to "unsafe" places if I don't know anyone there.
 
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Go online and google TSA locks and you will see. They are like any other lock but they have this big red TSA thingy on it that lets immigration know they have the master key to open it. Its some new bullshit they have invented. But these locks will work like any other on any kind of suitcase. If the suitcase you have has a lock imbedded then I wouldn't even bother using it unless they have complied with the TSA thingy or its a carry on where you can open it for them yourself.

Were you surprised about computer confiscation and hard drive search? Yeah all that in the US of A and yet Myanmar, the little rogue state has the exact same rule:D

Difference is that I wouldn't dream of bringing my laptop into N. Korea.

Now that I think of it I may even leave my Mac at home and use my mother's when traveling to the US. I have escaped having my hard drive searched so far.
 
Oh yeah, by the way you are right its only the americans who are breaking the locks. The TSA thingy does work in the US and the Brits also have a master lock for TSA, probably at the behest of the US but they aren't into breaking locks without real cause). No other country I know of will break a lock.
 
Were you surprised about computer confiscation and hard drive search?
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I didn't experience it. I carried my laptop everywhere since I worked on my papers and research anytime and I never had a single incident where my laptop was an issue. I was afraid a couple of times that the x-ray might affect my data but that turned out to be a non-issue. I usually carry my laptop in a zip case separately and in all the years and all the places I have travelled it has not been a problem
 
Here is some info:


TSA screens every passenger's baggage before it is placed on an airplane. While our technology allows us to electronically screen bags, there are times when we need to physically inspect a piece of luggage. TSA has worked with several companies to develop locks that can be opened by security officers using universal "master" keys so that the locks may not have to be cut. These locks are available at airports and travel stores nationwide. The packaging on the locks indicates whether they can be opened by TSA.

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/locks.shtm

They also show the little red flame thingy that indicates its TSA friendly.
 
S.A.M. said:
I didn't experience it. I carried my laptop everywhere since I worked on my papers and research anytime and I never had a single incident where my laptop was an issue. I was afraid a couple of times that the x-ray might affect my data but that turned out to be a non-issue. I usually carry my laptop in a zip case separately and in all the years and all the places I have travelled it has not been a problem
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They have never done it to me either but they do have the right and have done so to others, that's my point.

Some examples:

Returning from a vacation to Germany in February, freelance journalist Bill Hogan was selected for additional screening by customs officials at Dulles International Airport outside Washington. Agents searched his luggage, he said, "then they told me that they were impounding my laptop."

Shaken by the encounter, Hogan examined his bags and found the agents had also inspected the memory card from his camera. "It was fortunate that I didn't use [the laptop] for work," he said, "or I would have had to call up all my sources and tell them that the government had just seized their information." When customs offered to return the computer nearly two weeks later, Hogan had it shipped to his lawyer.

http://politics.usnews.com/news/nat...eizing-laptops-and-cameras-without-cause.html


The Fourth Amendment may prohibit “unreasonable searches and seizures” and require “probable cause,” but not at the border, according to the 9th Circuit US Court of Appeals, which has ruled that Customs and Border Protection agents could conduct random, warrantless searches and seizures of laptops without probable cause.


Since 9/11, CBP agents have been searching and seizing laptops, digital cameras, cellphones and other electronic devices at the border, without search warrants, or probable cause. CBP agents can subject these devices to extensive forensic analysis, according to the courts.

Maria Udy, a UK citizen working for a US global marketing firm, had her company laptop seized by a federal agent prior to flying from Dulles International to London, in December, 2006. The Washington Post reports Udy said the agent told her he had a “security concern” with her. Fourteen months later, Udy’s laptop had not been returned, nor had she been able to find out what happened to it.

In the 21st century, people worldwide keep many of the most intimate details of their lives on their laptops, PDAs and cell phones. Some laptops have become de-facto electronic diaries. You can’t get more personal than that.

At the border, the details of our lives and work are subject to copying, search, and seizure by government agents, at their whim. We don’t even know what they do with all that information, or how, or even if, they keep it private.

http://www.consumertraveler.com/tod...rotection-may-confiscate-your-laptop-and-pda/

If that doesn't give you room to pause then I don't know what does!
 
I'm glad you told me that. The next time I visit the US [if there is a next time] I will leave my computer at home.

The kind of rubbish I have on it, they would ship me directly to little Gitmo.
 
cosmictraveler said:
Ever visit Key West yet? Not unsafe unless I'm out and about! :D
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I visited Sombrero Beach. But yeah over a period of 5 years I visited Florida for almost four months. We drove from Miami to Orlando and also to Key West. I didn't do the flatboat tour though I saw almost all of Miami and Miami-Dade. We were stuck on the Overseas highway once for three hours!!!
 
Should have taken the sunset cruise and gone to a few of the night clubs as well. There's some good entertainers playing around town always. What years were you here?
 
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