To Monotheists: Why Does Evil Happen?

[Cellar_Door]

I'm not trying to prove that God doesn't exist or start the age old arguments anew. I am just interested in your responses to the poll.

If you believe an all-loving omnipotent God exists, how do you also explain the existence of suffering here on earth? Often bad things happen to good people and people who live bad lives can live well to their dying day.

 

[Michael]

Life's a Bitch.

 

[Adstar]

I'm not trying to prove that God doesn't exist or start the age old arguments anew. I am just interested in your responses to the poll.

If you believe an all-loving omnipotent God exists, how do you also explain the existence of suffering here on earth? Often bad things happen to good people and people who live bad lives can live well to their dying day.

Evil is a product of people having the freedom to reject the Will of God. The reason why evil abounds in this world is because people reject God.


A man went to a barber shop to have his hair and his beard cut as always. He started to have a good conversation with the barber who attended him.
They talked about so many things and various subjects. Suddenly, they touched the subject of God. The barber said: "Look man, I don't believe that God exists as you say."

"Why do you say that?" asked the client. "Well, it's so easy, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God does not exist. Oh, tell me, if God existed, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be no suffering nor pain. I can't think of loving a God who permits all of these things."

The client stopped for a moment thinking, but he didn't want to respond so as to cause an argument. The barber finished his job and the client went out of the shop.
Just after he left the barber shop he saw a man in the street with a long hair and beard (it seems that it had been a long time since he had his cut and he looked so untidy).

Then the client again entered the barber shop and he said to the barber: "You know what? Barbers do not exist."

"How can you say they don't exist?" asked the barber. "I am a barber and here I am." "No!" the client exclaimed. "They don't exist because if they did there would be no people with long hair and beard like that man who walks in the street."
"Ah, barbers do exist, what happens is that people do not come to me." "Exactly!"- affirmed the client. "That's the point. God does exist, what happens is people don't go to Him and do not look for Him.
That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Mr. Hamtastic]

I would have to say that evil is a product of anything not following God's will. Suffering-take Job-is there to test our faith.

 

[SnakeLord]

god is responsible for all evil.

 

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Weirdly enough, You are right, Snakelord. God, being the first cause, thus becomes the cause of all evil, as well as the cause of all millipedes.

 

[Cellar_Door]

Evil is a product of people having the freedom to reject the Will of God. The reason why evil abounds in this world is because people reject God.


A man went to a barber shop to have his hair and his beard cut as always. He started to have a good conversation with the barber who attended him.
They talked about so many things and various subjects. Suddenly, they touched the subject of God. The barber said: "Look man, I don't believe that God exists as you say."

"Why do you say that?" asked the client. "Well, it's so easy, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God does not exist. Oh, tell me, if God existed, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be no suffering nor pain. I can't think of loving a God who permits all of these things."

The client stopped for a moment thinking, but he didn't want to respond so as to cause an argument. The barber finished his job and the client went out of the shop.
Just after he left the barber shop he saw a man in the street with a long hair and beard (it seems that it had been a long time since he had his cut and he looked so untidy).

Then the client again entered the barber shop and he said to the barber: "You know what? Barbers do not exist."

"How can you say they don't exist?" asked the barber. "I am a barber and here I am." "No!" the client exclaimed. "They don't exist because if they did there would be no people with long hair and beard like that man who walks in the street."
"Ah, barbers do exist, what happens is that people do not come to me." "Exactly!"- affirmed the client. "That's the point. God does exist, what happens is people don't go to Him and do not look for Him.
That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Ok, that's a very decent explanation. But what about the newborn child who has had no chance find God and no voice to contact him?

 

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Let the little children come unto me-Jesus

The commonly held belief among christians is that until a child is able to decide between God and not God, "knows right from wrong" it is an innocent. The age of this varies, but the youngest I've ever heard was 4 years old, the oldest was 18. Either way, the newborn is covered.

 

[Nasor]

"How can you say they don't exist?" asked the barber. "I am a barber and here I am." "No!" the client exclaimed. "They don't exist because if they did there would be no people with long hair and beard like that man who walks in the street."
"Ah, barbers do exist, what happens is that people do not come to me." "Exactly!"- affirmed the client. "That's the point. God does exist, what happens is people don't go to Him and do not look for Him.
That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."

This would only be a good argument for disproving the existence of a magical barber who could be everywhere at once and had the power to cut the hair of anyone who wanted it. If I claimed that such a barber existed, then pointing out people with long hair would indeed be strong evidence that I was wrong.

Another problem with this analogy is that the guy with the long hair presumably wants his hair to be long. People generally don't want to be afflicted by evil, so this analogy doesn't explain why god would refuse to help good people when they ask.

 

[Cellar_Door]

The youngest what you've ever heard of? A child suffering? A religious child?

 

[Nasor]

Ok, that's a very decent explanation. But what about the newborn child who has had no chance find God and no voice to contact him?

I think you have to be careful about what you're calling "evil." Most people consider evil to be something bad that's deliberately brought about by humans. Something like a horrible disease that kills a child isn't really evil, it's just very unfortunate.

Of course, the question of why god would refuse to help people when they are afflicted with natural disasters, disease, etc. is certainly a good one. And in many ways it's much harder for christians to explain, since they can't weasel out of the question by saying that god respects our free will or some such.

 

[Adstar]

Ok, that's a very decent explanation. But what about the newborn child who has had no chance find God and no voice to contact him?

A new bord child is not evil. And i wonder how you connect that question to my original reply? It seems like a totally new issue deserving its own thread.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[SnakeLord]

Weirdly enough, You are right, Snakelord. God, being the first cause, thus becomes the cause of all evil, as well as the cause of all millipedes

I meant the direct cause of evil, not the original inventor, (although he would be that too).

 

[Mr. Hamtastic]

So you mean what causes evil event X? More often than not it is a bunch of people with the best of intentions. Is that what you mean? Satan seeks to lead people into doing things that are not God's will. Perhaps that is what you mean.

 

[SnakeLord]

So you mean what causes evil event X? More often than not it is a bunch of people with the best of intentions. Is that what you mean? Satan seeks to lead people into doing things that are not God's will. Perhaps that is what you mean.

”...shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?” (Amos 3:6)

”For thus saith the Lord; as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them” (Jer. 32:42)

”Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil come?”
(Lam. 3:38)

In the bible 'satan' doesn't actually do very much, in his first action he gave mankind knowledge of good and evil and self awareness. Some might like to remain completely ignorant of themselves, not even realising they're naked - as this god wanted them - but I think otherwise. If we look at this god however, all we see is mass death and destruction via his hands. We're talking complete annihilation of just about every living thing on the planet to name just one example. Now, perhaps our understanding of 'evil' differs, but it certainly seems apparent which one of those two qualifies.

 

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Ok. So God is naughty in the eyes of Snakelord? Too bad Snakelord doesn't get a say as to God's nature.

In the three references you mention, you fail to take in the context, or the potential for translation. Substitute "Unpleasant experiences" for "Evil". Amos was pointing out that, if something bad happens to a city, hasn't God done it? Volcano, Plague, etc. Jeremiah was referring to (If I'm remembering my history right) the Babylonian captivity. One of God's judgements against Israel was said period of captivity. Lamentations is talking about the fact that good things or judgements can come from God.

Satan got man to act against the will of God. If he had not done so, you would not be concerned about your "self-awareness". What you are missing that God does repeatedly is takes the most unlikely individual, and raises them up to be an executor of God's will. As for Noah's flood,(Which I'm assuming you are making a reference to) God allowed for a few bits of the various species to be spared. This was a kindness on God's part. OF course, then again, it could be argued that Noah's Ark is a carry over from the tale of Gilgamesh, to the idea that it could have been when the Mediterrannean burst through the Bosporous strait, inundating the Black Sea. I've heard of one person talking about how Noah's Ark was a spacecraft that carried the DNA of various animals and a few humans, and delivered them on earth in the region of Mesopotamia.

My definition of Evil-That which God does not will. Can God will things that man considers evil? sure. Can God will things that God considers evil? I don't know God's definition of evil, so I'd say yes. Can God will things that I consider evil? No.

 

[SnakeLord]

Too bad Snakelord doesn't get a say as to God's nature.

Oh really, why's that?

In the three references you mention, you fail to take in the context, or the potential for translation.

Actually no, this typical theist excuse doesn't work. Try something else.

Satan got man to act against the will of God.

Couldn't have done. If it wasn't god's will, the snake wouldn't have even managed to find it's way into the garden. He wanted it there to do exactly what he knew it was going to do.

This was a kindness on God's part.

Clearly you and I have a different understanding of 'kindness'. Whatever.

 

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Oh really, why's that?

because God is bigger than Snakelord

Actually no, this typical theist excuse doesn't work. Try something else.

Actually yes it does work, I'm sorry you don't like it.

Couldn't have done. If it wasn't god's will, the snake wouldn't have even managed to find it's way into the garden. He wanted it there to do exactly what he knew it was going to do.

IF you want to argue about Hansel and Gretel... Ok. Satan had free will. The Man and Woman had free will. God KNEW what was going to happen, but he made no move to prevent it, meaning he allowed it to happen, not that it was what he wanted. The story we're talking about also mentions something about God leaving the Garden, then coming back. A neat trick for someone who is omnipresent.

Clearly you and I have a different understanding of 'kindness'. Whatever.

We certainly do.

 

[SnakeLord]

because God is bigger than Snakelord

So was Vlad the Impaler, what's your point?

Actually yes it does work, I'm sorry you don't like it.

It's nothing to do with not liking it, it's everything to do with it being a theist avoidance tactic.

Satan had free will. The Man and Woman had free will. God KNEW what was going to happen, but he made no move to prevent it, meaning he allowed it to happen, not that it was what he wanted.

This is interesting. What do you call a father that allows the most evil entity in existence to mess around with his kids? Let's use an analogy..

You put your child in a room. Next to your child you put a paedophile. You tell your child not to eat the sweets but your child is ignorant. Your child gets done over by the paedophile while you sit there watching it happen and allowing it to happen. Not only that but you knew it was going to happen before it ever did.

This is plain and simple evil. If this god had have been an all loving parent or a female god this would never have happened. She would have come down, killed the paedo and made sure that her child never went through such suffering again.

The parent that lets it happen is just as guilty, if not more in fact, than the paedophile. It is the paedophiles nature to do what he does, he can't help it - he's evil. The parent can help it, can prevent it - he chooses instead to watch it happen. To sit idly by why his child is raped. Any parent that does that must want it to happen.

Forgive me, but that is real evil.

The story we're talking about also mentions something about God leaving the Garden, then coming back. A neat trick for someone who is omnipresent.

I fail to see the relevance, unless you're saying the bible is lying?

 

[Mr. Hamtastic]

God decides what the nature of God is, not Snakelord.

Actually I went through, point by point, and explained each passage to you. If you call this avoidance, so be it.

God did not allow the Snake to physically touch the Humans. He allowed the snake to talk to them. Comparing this to a pedophilic act is a strange comparison. Perhaps I should compare you to a tree frog, next? Is it real evil to allow one's "children"(they were created beings, did God really look at them as his children? but that's beside the point)to be exposed to potentially harmful ideas, and then to allow them to make an informed decision? I thought it went like this:"Don't eat the fruit"-God "He just doesn't want you to be like him, that's why he doesn't want you to eat the fruit"-satan "Yummy, fruit, here have some Adam."-Eve Sounds like an informed decision to me, on a child's scale.

I'm saying that some of the bible, in particular Genesis, is, at best, an explanation of VERY advanced concepts to prehistoric man, at worst, a collection of morality-based stories told for entertainment to young children of the time. The Bible is a book. More than that, it is a collection of writings made over several thousand years. To me, anyway, arguing about what happened in the creation story is very similar to arguing about Hansel and Gretel.