Tis the season to be (astro)logical... tra la la la la...

[Medicine*Woman]

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M*W: Have any of you ever wondered why Jesus was born of a virgin in a stable?

Good news! Jesus was born in a circle of animals. That circle of animals is called the zodiac. Jesus is the Sun and the son of the sun. Jesus is the Sun in the middle of the zodiac. Any questions?

 

[Provita]

Forgive me... but I just checked the Gospels according to Matthew and Luke, and neither say Jesus was surrounded by animals... which in ur argument represents the zodiac... it is merely a myth passed down to make the Nativity Scene, nothing more... unless it says it somewhere else than this.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Forgive me... but I just checked the Gospels according to Matthew and Luke, and neither say Jesus was surrounded by animals... which in ur argument represents the zodiac... it is merely a myth passed down to make the Nativity Scene, nothing more... unless it says it somewhere else than this.

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M*W: That's your first problem. You "checked the Gospels...". The "myth" is that there was a real man named "Jesus." The truth is, he never existed. Jesus was a name given to the "sun." Jesus/Sun were the center of the universe bringing light. Jesus is the center of the zodiac. I don't care who the hell you are.

 

[Provita]

So now you are making a point over nothing but what you made up? Oh yes, a good argument...

 

[Medicine*Woman]

So now you are making a point over nothing but what you made up? Oh yes, a good argument...

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M*W: Just because I don't believe in the mythology you believe in, does not a lie my theory make! My argument is that Jesus didn't exist. He is simply man-made symbolism of the Sun.

You believe in fantasy. Call it what it really is! There is no god. It's all in your imagination.

 

[Provita]

My imagination? I didnt "imagine it" as you say... supposedly, according to you, 12 people imagined it, passed it on, reconverted an empire, spread along Europe, ruling it from some time, and then spread world-wide to be the most (and 2nd most, for Christianity and islam keep swicthing from 1st and 2nd) populous religion in the world...

...ok

Not saying its not possible... cause it certainly is... but its not MY imagination... its someone else's idea that i accept... but i do not believe it is someone's "idea", i believe it to be FACT... but i do not know it is fact, let me make that clear.

You just made an argument over something you made up... no where ANYWHERE in ANY religious document concerning Jesus does it say he was surrounded by animals, thus destroying ur argument those animals, which arent written about, represent the Zodiac... you might as well right now make up that Jesus said "I am not the son of God" and use that argument...

 

[Medicine*Woman]

My imagination? I didnt "imagine it" as you say... supposedly, according to you, 12 people imagined it, passed it on, reconverted an empire, spread along Europe, ruling it from some time, and then spread world-wide to be the most (and 2nd most, for Christianity and islam keep swicthing from 1st and 2nd) populous religion in the world...

...ok

Not saying its not possible... cause it certainly is... but its not MY imagination... its someone else's idea that i accept... but i do not believe it is someone's "idea", i believe it to be FACT... but i do not know it is fact, let me make that clear.

You just made an argument over something you made up... no where ANYWHERE in ANY religious document concerning Jesus does it say he was surrounded by animals, thus destroying ur argument those animals, which arent written about, represent the Zodiac... you might as well right now make up that Jesus said "I am not the son of God" and use that argument...

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M*W: Those '12 people' didn't exist either. They were fictional. They were metaphorical for the 12 signs of the zodiac. You're right, and I apologize for saying it was "your imagination." You don't have an 'imagination.' I'm truly sorry for assuming that you did.

What's the problem with my 'making up' a theory. Scientists do that everyday. It's their job. I have my theories, and I back them with research that is not my own.

What kind of 'religious document' do you believe exists explaining that Jesus was the geotheocentric god of the zodiac? If there was such a document, we wouldn't be having this debate.

OTOH, there ARE documents which exist providing evidence that Jesus didn't exist, and that he is only a fig newton of our imagination. And, guess what? These documents were NOT written by me!

Get a life, Provita. Surely you could manage your time more effectively.

 

[c7ityi_]

Good news! Jesus was born in a circle of animals. That circle of animals is called the zodiac. Jesus is the Sun and the son of the sun. Jesus is the Sun in the middle of the zodiac. Any questions?

the human body resembles a stable where many animals (desires) live. in this stable a divine child is born: self consciousness. the animals attack you, the zodiac radiates at you, but if you learn to control them, they'll serve you with great power, you'll become a radiating zodiac.

 

[cole grey]

Get a life, Provita. Surely you could manage your time more effectively.

That argument about, "where does it say he was surrounded by animals anyway?" was pretty effective. Short thread until you find something that shows why someone religious would have thought he was surrounded by animals, besides it looking cute in a cartoon or some other nonsense.
Perhaps your ad hoc "theory" is true, arrived at by some instinct or whatever, but you've got nothing to stand on yet. You have an idea, not a theory, but I still like you.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

That argument about, "where does it say he was surrounded by animals anyway?" was pretty effective. Short thread until you find something that shows why someone religious would have thought he was surrounded by animals, besides it looking cute in a cartoon or some other nonsense.
Perhaps your ad hoc "theory" is true, arrived at by some instinct or whatever, but you've got nothing to stand on yet. You have an idea, not a theory, but I still like you.

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M*W: What does "being born in a manger" mean to you?

 

[Killjoy]

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M*W: Have any of you ever wondered why Jesus was born of a virgin in a stable?

Good news! Jesus was born in a circle of animals. That circle of animals is called the zodiac. Jesus is the Sun and the son of the sun. Jesus is the Sun in the middle of the zodiac. Any questions?

I thought the X-ians just swiped that 'middle of the zodiac' business from Mithras in the middle of the zodiac...

Not to mention the death-rebirth business, the sun-son business, and maybe the virgin birth business... though I have also read that Mithras supposedly popped out of a rock. (I suppose it could have been a virgin rock...)

The only animals I have heard of being in the manger were an ox (hmmm... remind you of somebody elses favorite draft animal ?) and a sheep or ram. Sure weren't no crabs or sea-goats or scorpions - though the latter could have been scuttling about the straw, I guess.
Apparently, such symbols were part of depictions of Mithras, though - and elements of the mythos.

I like your notion that the 12 bootlickers are analogous to the symbols of the zodiac. It would have beeen a neat way for the X-a-maniacs to incorporate yet another element of the previously existing cult. Heck, the whole 'faith' is such a hodgepodge of other people's stuff it's kinda sickening... especially as most of the stolen stuff is more interesting than the "woe, woe... sin, sin" breast-beating crapola it became.

I thought that salesman and super-preacher Saul/Paul actually existed, though. Isn't he credited in some circles with actually starting the X-ian faith ?

 

[Provita]

Just to add Medicine Woman, NOTHING says Jesus was "born in a manger", so i dont know what you're quoting... now I do know of one source that does, and im not saying it is the only source, and im not saying it is reliable to you, but the Gospel of Luke, Chapter 2, Verse 7, according to the New American Bible (some variations may occur, so im stating the name of the bible, but it should be near this translation or near this verse line) Jesus was born (not saying where) and then laid in a manger... not born into it...

As for Killjoy, yeah, supposedly Paul is credited fo the beginnings of the Church, but there is no diehard absolute 100% proof he existed... so someone can always say he didnt exist and it was all made up *looks at Medicine Woman*

 

[cole grey]

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M*W: What does "being born in a manger" mean to you?

maybe there was a donkey or an ox, a camel maybe, a goat? a sheep?
Or perhaps the barn was turned into an extra room and the animals weren't standing around jesus, but rather were off in a corner somewhere sleeping, like animals do at night. What would they care?
That is five at best, and zero at worst, not twelve by any stretch of the imagination, so I would say Jesus was a story based on the knowledge that the five pointed star is related to the golden ratio, and the whole thing is a reaction to the control the greeks had over the intellectual culture of the jews, and since pythagoreans hated unnatural numbers, phi was jesus and that is why there are five different animals (probably) - and did you ever notice all the references to the star the wise men saw as a sign, AND that jesus is called the "morning star", or maybe that is satan, but either way the star is in this, I know it. Or maybe it symbolizes the oak leaf and the golden bough... I could go on but I think you get my point.
P.S. I still appreciate that you think so much about this subject, because I think it is important to investigate the spiritual, even if we can't agree on anything.

 

[c7ityi_]

the "zodiac" doesn't necessarily consist of 12 signs. ancient greek zodiacs had only 10 signs, and ezekiels vision of "god" (first chapter) only mentions the four main ones, which also represent the 4 elements. the 4 elements are the 12 signs of the zodiac, except they're simplified to 4. the yin and yang "is" also the zodiac (you could say..), except it's only divided into 2.

the oneness of "god" is like light, it is one, but this unity can be separated into infinite colors.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

I thought the X-ians just swiped that 'middle of the zodiac' business from Mithras in the middle of the zodiac...

Not to mention the death-rebirth business, the sun-son business, and maybe the virgin birth business... though I have also read that Mithras supposedly popped out of a rock. (I suppose it could have been a virgin rock...)

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M*W: You're probably on target about the Mithras cult. Much of christianity was taken from Mithras. There were some 16 dying demigod saviors before Jesus and 9 similar dying demigodmen before them! Ummm, so many gods, so little time...

The only animals I have heard of being in the manger were an ox (hmmm... remind you of somebody elses favorite draft animal ?) and a sheep or ram. Sure weren't no crabs or sea-goats or scorpions - though the latter could have been scuttling about the straw, I guess. Apparently, such symbols were part of depictions of Mithras, though - and elements of the mythos.

I like your notion that the 12 bootlickers are analogous to the symbols of the zodiac. It would have beeen a neat way for the X-a-maniacs to incorporate yet another element of the previously existing cult. Heck, the whole 'faith' is such a hodgepodge of other people's stuff it's kinda sickening... especially as most of the stolen stuff is more interesting than the "woe, woe... sin, sin" breast-beating crapola it became.

I thought that salesman and super-preacher Saul/Paul actually existed, though. Isn't he credited in some circles with actually starting the X-ian faith ?

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M*W: It was not that long ago that I came to realize that Jesus didn't exist and neither did his 12 'followers' (13 including Saul/Paul/Apollo). The cosmological symbolism of monotheism is the route I'm pursuing. All other roads to understanding christianity came to a dead end.

All this new talk about Jesus and Judas and the manuscripts, I believe are falsifications. I don't want to use the word "forgery," because I don't know what could be forged. I also think the early Roman Catholic Church was responsible for creating such documents to reinforce the false existence of their xian godman.

I have a question for non-christians. If Saul/Paul/Apollo didn't exist, he couldn't have written the new testament. The new testament was written in Greek instead of the languages spoken by the 'characters' in the new testament. Why do you think Greek was used instead of Aramaic or Hebrew?

 

[Killjoy]

`
The authors were writing to their actual target audience ?

Wasn't Greek the "scholarly" tongue of Rome at or about the time the Catholic Church was starting out under the Emperor Constantine ?

.

 

[Athelwulf]

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M*W: Have any of you ever wondered why Jesus was born of a virgin in a stable?

Good news! Jesus was born in a circle of animals. That circle of animals is called the zodiac. Jesus is the Sun and the son of the sun. Jesus is the Sun in the middle of the zodiac. Any questions?

I would like to add the following:

The Age of Pisces started about the time of Jesus's birth. The Age of Pisces is when Christianity had an enormous influence in the world, and the age is marked by sacrifice and struggle. These qualities are associated with Pisces, with which religion and spiritual knowledge are also associated. Given what M*W says, it's no surprise that the symbol for Christianity is a fish, and that Jesus called his apostles "fishers of men".

 

[Killjoy]

`
I've read about the "Age of Pisces" myself.
First thing I thought of was the Christian insignia of the fish.
.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

`
The authors were writing to their actual target audience ?

Wasn't Greek the "scholarly" tongue of Rome at or about the time the Catholic Church was starting out under the Emperor Constantine ?

.

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M*W: I thought Latin was the Roman mother tongue until the time of Dante who wrote in the new Italian language.

 

[Killjoy]

`
I didn't mean that all the Romans spoke Greek...

Just this:
Culture of ancient Rome
(see "Language")
While Latin remained the main written language of the Roman Empire, Greek came to be the language spoken by the well-educated elite, as most of the literature studied by Romans was written in Greek. In the eastern half of the Roman Empire, which became the Byzantine Empire, Greek eventually supplanted Latin as both the written and spoken language.

And...
New Testament
(Again... see "Language")
The common language spoken in the time of Jesus was Aramaic. However, the original text of the New Testament was most likely written in Koine Greek, the vernacular dialect in first-century Roman provinces, and has since been widely translated into other languages, most notably Latin, Syriac, and Coptic.

.