Three Claims of Uniformitarian Naturalism

[SetiAlpha6]

Thanks again for the conversation Alex, I do very much appreciate you, even though we might disagree on a few minor details.

I know you have a beautiful heart, as I have told you before.

I will be mostly off grid, or off and on sporadically, through next week, so please have a wonderful week and perhaps we can resume the conversation when I get back on grid.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Underneath most of the things you say is the following claim...

Claim 1
Nature is all that exists.

I did not make that claim however our observations suggest this to be the case.
I am disappointed you did not address any issue I raised however it is your thread and you are I suppose on topic.

Please start with this Claim, and Scientifically prove it. Then we will be able to move on from there.

I think the way science works can't entertain your demand.
However it seems reasonable to start with that premise and if someone wishes to show otherwise surely in must be up to them.

If all we see is in effect nature why would we suppose or even for a moment decide that there could be something else until some hint of something else becomes known.

Such a Claim, should require proof before anyone should buy it right, especially here in a Science forum?

Here is your problem..it is not a claim it is a universal observation...if you want more than observation it is up to you to show that something missed by observation.

Look if this god of yours is so everywhere, so relevant etc can you explain why he can not or rather is not observed and all that we have are the unevidenced assertions that he exists and does selective miracles presumably because he can but overall ignores human suffering and inequity...why is he so sparing with his intervention. Here in this country we have approximately one murder a week where a male kills his partner or former partner ..could you explain why your god can drop by for the occasional miracle and yet these womem just keep getting killed...of course you won't answer because you can not and just like you ignore every fact I present not one can pass your mental block that excludes all reason or reference to well evidenced historical fact..you want it to be true so much you simply can not and will not conceed your position runs co trary to historical fact etc. Believe what you

So far, no one has actually done this.

Well let's not treat it as a claim, let's pretend it has never been said...I don't care if what you consider is a claim is withdrawn. All we are left with is all we can observe are you ok with that? Or we know all these things exist so what? Take it from there..you see all we have that you a pledge is a claim is observation of reality.. if there is more show us and we can add it to our observations. You want to add a god then simply show us so we can say we now know more...

And proof really is warranted because there are so many written accounts of miracles running throughout mankind’s history, that are evidence to the contrary.

OK you have made a specific claim do you wish to withdraw it, or qualify it in some way before I ask you for your very best three examples of miracles. Give me examples of three miracles, the most compelling you can think of ones that will falsify atheist...please.
Now if you are so sure three should be easy.

And also there is the fact that Atheism throughout known history and even up until today has always been a minority position.

So ???
The mob is always right?
Rich folk are in the minority what does that tell us? That poor folk are better at spending money? Do you suggest that because the mob all agree that they are right...could we not look at the facts..the historical facts that gods are invented..thousand of gods have been invented so I don't know why that is such a difficult proposition for you to understand...am I the first person to tell you that there are in well evidenced fact, thousands of invented gods? And the interesting thing is not one of the thousands of gods has ever appeared ..not one, not a single one.
Study the history of your religion and tell me that I am wrong...you won't study a damn thing because you know that I have the goods and if you look you will find every single thing I say is correct...go on prove me wrong...show me that what I say about the god being invented by the Sumerians is wrong...and that is possible..thecreaserchers could have forged the clay tablets, aged them just to con the world...yes that's what you will go away with...still there are the thousands of gods we know were invented that Sortta makes your case rather dubious but no doubt when you present your three best miracles we can look at the matter more closely.
You still have not backed up your claim re your father which given it is what can only be called a first hand experience you should be able to flesh it out in convincing detail.
And perhaps answer where the miracle took place and with whom..in church with a priest or in a hospital with doctors..please be honest and answer at least that question.
You see you won't because even when you say it it sounds crazy to you.
The creator of the universe name dropping is where you are at.
Alex

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Thanks again for the conversation Alex, I do very much appreciate you, even though we might disagree on a few minor details.

I know you have a beautiful heart, as I have told you before.

I will be mostly off grid, or off and on sporadically, through next week, so please have a wonderful week and perhaps we can resume the conversation when I get back on grid.

Thank you and I know you are a fine human being that is why I try and help you..I treasure my enlightenment and the extraordinary power I can access as a result...a lot has to do with being honest and being honest with oneself is not easy. You must know all I say is true but J understand for you to move to a level of complete honesty you would probably lose your family, your friends and probably your job...but you do find you, you find truth, you gain a power beyond description..that's why they keep you in line with religion ..if everyone wised up they could not control outcomes..they don't believe... you must know that..but my advice is as I said believe what you want but know that if you insist on trying to prove unprovable matters that you will not be given a free pass.

You can't give me these just three miracles.. I know that..I know when you try and select each one you will see the problems..that is why you will ignore my request.
But I do understand...
Alex

 

[(Q)]

Claim 1
Nature is all that exists.

Please start with this Claim, and Scientifically prove it. Then we will be able to move on from there.

Let’s say that the word “Nature” means the Physical Universe and all things directly associated with it, like all matter, energy, gravity, physical laws, every atom, every subatomic particle, and everything else tied to the physical Universe whether known or unknown.

Or throw my stupid description out the window and we can use yours. We have to start somewhere.

We don't have to start anywhere, it is you who should start educating yourself, try being honest for a change so that you don't have to make up lies and look the fool. YOU made that claim, just like you make all the claims on this thread and then lie that the claims come from atheists.

It sure does appear that the more faith you have in God, the more dishonest, lying cretin you are.

 

[(Q)]

I never claimed that my father was special, only that God healed him.

And that one miracle, in my personal opinion, falsifies Atheism.

Honesty. A word you will never know.

 

[paddoboy]

Please prove all of the following claims scientifically.

Claim 1
Nature is all that exists.

Claim 2
Everything can, and indeed must, be explained by time plus chance plus the laws of nature working on matter.

Claim 3
Processes of geological change have always been operating in the past at the same rate, frequency and power as today.

Please take your pick and prove absolutely, one or all, of these claims using only the
Empirical Scientific Method and Repeatable Experimentation.

Oh... and please show your work.

Thanks, SetiAlpha6

You can do better then that matey. Simply by having the intestinal fortitude, to answering all the questions put to you. The first and foremost of those is that you say in effect that you accept "each to there own" or let each individual believe what he or she really feels. So again then why do you [and others like the vociferous one] see the need to come to a science forum preaching to people who obviously have far more vision and foresight then you, and are aware of how science has made any ID or deity of any type superfluous at best...you know, we just don't need it. I mean just because you approach the subject in a more sedate calm manner then the fire and brimstone vociferously inspired nonsense of vociferous, adds nothing to the myth you both accept.
Now onto your loaded misunderstood questions.
Nature?? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature
"Nature, in the broadest sense, is the natural, physical, or material world or universe. "Nature" can refer to the phenomena of the physical world, and also to life in general. The study of nature is a large, if not the only, part of science. Although humans are part of nature, human activity is often understood as a separate category from other natural phenomena"
:::::::::::::::::::::::::
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranormal
"Proposals regarding the paranormal are different from scientific hypotheses or speculations extrapolated from scientific evidence because scientific ideas are grounded in empirical observations and experimental data gained through the scientific method. In contrast, those who argue for the existence of the paranormal explicitly do not base their arguments on empirical evidence but rather on anecdote, testimony, and suspicion.[5] Notable paranormal beliefs include those that pertain to extrasensory perception (for example, telepathy), spiritualism and the pseudosciences of ghost hunting, cryptozoology, and ufology"
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
So there we have it. Science based on the empirical evidence as you asked and the other on myth and delusions.
Then you ask, "Claim 2
Everything can, and indeed must, be explained by time plus chance plus the laws of nature working on matter".
And then you wonder why people call you and others of your ilk dishonest?
Ignoring the fact that your claim2 makes no sense, the laws of nature are what they are...why we as yet do not understand.
We have a reasonable picture of the universe and how it evolved from t+10-45 second, and we have some interesting speculation about before that. None of it involves any mythical IDer, and no evidence points to any mythical designer. Why do we need to prove something that there is no evidence for anyway?
Your third dishonest and loaded question is "Processes of geological change have always been operating in the past at the same rate, frequency and power as today".
Are you trying to tell us that you are a young Earther?
I'm no archaeologist, but the fact remains that the evidence shows the Earth to be 4.5 billion years old, and if you were not so dishonest, and not so mythically minded and stuck in your God rut, you would be able to see that. We know the evolution of life is fact, both macro and micro, and that continuing on from that fact leads us to the process of Abiogeneisis...a theory well supported but the methodology as yet not known.

Ok, thank you!

So if we go with these 6 assumptions can we prove any of them, or even one of them scientifically or otherwise?

As you have been informed many many times, science isn't particularly about proof. A theory is our best estimate and gathers more and more certainty as long as it continues to explain the experimental results and observational data we have.
Can you prove that god exists? Can you prove that the Earth is 10,000 years old? Forget that, its too hard...can you show any evidence for god? Can you show any evidence to show the Erath is 10,000 years old? Or have you any evidence to show that the theory of evolution is not fact...or that Abiogenesis is impossible.

Remember Seti, the question you refuse to answer. It is you, and the likes of the vociferous one that sees the need to come to a science forum preaching your nonsensical unevidenced claims.
I would guess that some religious sites also have science sections. I don't go nor have ever attempt to even find one...why? because I'm happy and contented in the skin I'm in, and the wonders and methodologies of science and the fact that it has without question, made any need for any ID, as superfluous at best.

 

[paddoboy]

I think that Faith usually does have evidence associated with it. And I think that you already know that.

I have faith that the chair I am sitting in will hold me up because it has always done so before. There is evidence for my faith but in reality it could break this time.

I have faith that my employee will not steal my car when I give him the keys because I know him, and have found him to be trustworthy. I have faith or trust in him because of the experience and evidence I have.

I am sure you do the same kinds of things all the time.

No faith is as I defined. The facts are that the chair will hold you up because of electrostatic repulsion, a scientific fact.
Here is a 7.5 minute video explaining.....

The interesting aspect is at the 4min 30 second mark, in case you don't fell like watching the excellent explanation by Feynman.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

You can do better then that matey. Simply by having the intestinal fortitude, to answering all the questions put to you. The first and foremost of those is that you say in effect that you accept "each to there own" or let each individual believe what he or she really feels. So again then why do you [and others like the vociferous one] see the need to come to a science forum preaching to people who obviously have far more vision and foresight then you, and are aware of how science has made any ID or deity of any type superfluous at best...you know, we just don't need it. I mean just because you approach the subject in a more sedate calm manner then the fire and brimstone vociferously inspired nonsense of vociferous, adds nothing to the myth you both accept.
Now onto your loaded misunderstood questions.
Nature?? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature
"Nature, in the broadest sense, is the natural, physical, or material world or universe. "Nature" can refer to the phenomena of the physical world, and also to life in general. The study of nature is a large, if not the only, part of science. Although humans are part of nature, human activity is often understood as a separate category from other natural phenomena"
:::::::::::::::::::::::::
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranormal
"Proposals regarding the paranormal are different from scientific hypotheses or speculations extrapolated from scientific evidence because scientific ideas are grounded in empirical observations and experimental data gained through the scientific method. In contrast, those who argue for the existence of the paranormal explicitly do not base their arguments on empirical evidence but rather on anecdote, testimony, and suspicion.[5] Notable paranormal beliefs include those that pertain to extrasensory perception (for example, telepathy), spiritualism and the pseudosciences of ghost hunting, cryptozoology, and ufology"
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
So there we have it. Science based on the empirical evidence as you asked and the other on myth and delusions.
Then you ask, "Claim 2
Everything can, and indeed must, be explained by time plus chance plus the laws of nature working on matter".
And then you wonder why people call you and others of your ilk dishonest?
Ignoring the fact that your claim2 makes no sense, the laws of nature are what they are...why we as yet do not understand.
We have a reasonable picture of the universe and how it evolved from t+10-45 second, and we have some interesting speculation about before that. None of it involves any mythical IDer, and no evidence points to any mythical designer. Why do we need to prove something that there is no evidence for anyway?
Your third dishonest and loaded question is "Processes of geological change have always been operating in the past at the same rate, frequency and power as today".
Are you trying to tell us that you are a young Earther?
I'm no archaeologist, but the fact remains that the evidence shows the Earth to be 4.5 billion years old, and if you were not so dishonest, and not so mythically minded and stuck in your God rut, you would be able to see that. We know the evolution of life is fact, both macro and micro, and that continuing on from that fact leads us to the process of Abiogeneisis...a theory well supported but the methodology as yet not known.

As you have been informed many many times, science isn't particularly about proof. A theory is our best estimate and gathers more and more certainty as long as it continues to explain the experimental results and observational data we have.
Can you prove that god exists? Can you prove that the Earth is 10,000 years old? Forget that, its too hard...can you show any evidence for god? Can you show any evidence to show the Erath is 10,000 years old? Or have you any evidence to show that the theory of evolution is not fact...or that Abiogenesis is impossible.

Remember Seti, the question you refuse to answer. It is you, and the likes of the vociferous one that sees the need to come to a science forum preaching your nonsensical unevidenced claims.
I would guess that some religious sites also have science sections. I don't go nor have ever attempt to even find one...why? because I'm happy and contented in the skin I'm in, and the wonders and methodologies of science and the fact that it has without question, made any need for any ID, as superfluous at best.

You have nothing and he has a holy book.

Another wonderful post and as any reasonable person can only accept your well evidenced position our Seti can only roll over and conceed he is wrong and has been yet another victim of cruel brainwashing and a misguided belief that gods are not a human invention with no evidence to support their existence or their supposed superior ability over well educated doctors to drive out the demons causing illness.
Have a great day mate.
Alex

 

[paddoboy]

You have nothing and he has a holy book.

Holy book, or holey book? [holey... Having holes or being full of holes]

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Holy book, or holey book? [holey... Having holes or being full of holes]

It must be right however as it is very old and well respected by those smart enough to keep last year's calender to use it in the future.
It is a pity however that the bible has been used to promote religion as that is not what it is about...it is a collection of camp fire stories full of fantasy and make believe why folk want to use it for religion is beyond me
Now let's hope Seti calls me out and demands I back up my claim.
Alex

 

[James R]

Many of your assumptions and philosophy seem to rely on a number of unproven, perhaps even unprovable things!

Not as many as yours.

My own father was healed by God, not by a Rock.

How do you know that God Did It? You never explained.

There is no way I can prove that to you or to anyone else.

You can't prove it to yourself. You just choose to believe it because it makes you comfortable.

I have no need to even try to do so.

That's because you're comfortable in your ignorance.

And I also have no need for anyone else to take my word for that or for anything else either.

You don't need to because you don't care what other people think, or you don't need to because you think you have suitable evidence for your beliefs?

We all have to reach our own conclusions in life, we are all on our own.

No, we're not. We can draw on literally centuries of hard work in gaining knowledge about out world, all done by other people. If we're very lucky, we can occasionally even build on that foundation. Stumbling around in the dark is what got you into the mess you're in in the first place.

So I choose to trust in the very real God who healed my own Dad, instead of trusting in made up fairy tales about mythical magical Rock Ancestors.

How do you know there's a very real God?

I won't bother quizzing you about the Rock Ancestors, since we have previously established (a) that you have a very poor knowledge of science and (b) you're unwilling to learn anything about it.

Thanks so much for your comments!

No worries. Are you ever going to reply to the many substantive points I initially raised in my first series of replies to you in this thread? Or are you planning on ignoring most of that and going on in ignorance?

 

[James R]

Yes, God healed my father, immediately after prayer at home.

There are two problems with that conclusion.

One is that it does not automatically follow that if one thing happens after something else, then the second thing must have been caused by the first thing. There was praying, and then your father got better. But you haven't established any link. All you've said is that prayer happened, and then the getting better happened. But in the meantime, lots of other things happened, too. Maybe your father got better because a butterfly flapped its wings in the Amazon rainforest. That happened before your father got better, too. Point is: how do you know the prayer and the getting better are in any way linked?

Second problem is your selective memory. What happened to all the times you prayed your father would get better (or somebody else would get better) and they didn't? Did you just forget about those times? Or did you decide that God must have had a good reason not to answer your prayers on those "failed" occasions when prayer produced no results (or the opposite result)? If you only count the hits and forget all the misses, you're clearly going to end up with a biased assessment of what causes what.

What is the big deal? It was only one of the many miracles that God has done for thousands of people worldwide. Accounts of miracles go back for thousands of years throughout recorded history.

How do you know God has done many miracles? As far as I can tell, you can't prove even one miracle.

Also, remember that I asked you previously how you define a miracle. I think that was probably one of the many posts you chose to ignore, probably because you have no idea what a miracle is. As far as I can tell, for you a miracle is just any happy or fortunate occasion. You give your God credit for all such occasions, but you never assign blame to your God for all the stuff ups and failures and bad outcomes, do you?

As I have said in the past, all it takes is one miracle to falsify Atheism.

You have a LOT of work to do to show that there has ever been one miracle.

I never claimed that my father was special, only that God healed him.

Do you have any evidence for your claim? If not, it's just your unsupported opinion.

It's bizarre that you insist on repeating this claim when you have nothing at all to back it up. I guess that's what faith is all about. Am I right?

 

[SetiAlpha6]

I actually do not have to answer all questions.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

If you really don’t want theists to be here, fine I understand, we can be a threat to your way of life.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

If you would like to ignore the reality of miracles both in the past, over centuries, and today, no problem, your loss.

If however, you would like to educate yourself on miracles then perhaps this resource might be of some value?

https://www.therecord.com/sports/2010/10/12/doctor-scrutinizes-1-400-medical-miracles-of-saints.html

"To believe there is a natural explanation . is a belief," she says.

"And if you can't explain it who are you to say that your belief should trump the belief of your patient, who firmly believes that God did it."”

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/medical-miracles-9780195336504

Completely your decision, your choice.

I love you either way!

PS: to be clear I am not personally a Catholic.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

As far as blaming God goes?

He gave us this Planet to Rule for ourselves. We have the authority and responsibility for what happens here. If evil exists here, it is because WE allow it, and cause it.

We have rejected Him in many ways both personally and as a race, including by nailing Him to a Cross, rejecting His protection, rejecting His provision.

My question then is...

Why is He obligated to help us at all, after that, ever?

A critic will say things like... how can God be good and allow evil? And then in the next breath, become outraged when God kills evil people to stop it. They condemn God for both.

He is not obligated to help us at all, but He still loves us, and will sometimes help us if we ask Him back into our lives.

That is a response to a question.
That is not preaching!

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Many of you have a Narrative and even Careers you have to protect.

And I know also that it can be very difficult to think outside the Narrative box of Naturalism that you have placed yourself in.

In my opinion Naturalism is a belief system that is particularly difficult to break free from.

But if you want to, you can, it is possible.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

It must be right however as it is very old and well respected by those smart enough to keep last year's calender to use it in the future.
It is a pity however that the bible has been used to promote religion as that is not what it is about...it is a collection of camp fire stories full of fantasy and make believe why folk want to use it for religion is beyond me
Now let's hope Seti calls me out and demands I back up my claim.
Alex

Hi Alex,
Hope you had a great week!

Please back up your claim!
This is a Science Forum mate!

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Hi Alex,
Hope you had a great week!

Please back up your claim!
This is a Science Forum mate!

Me and my big mouth has got me in a mess yet again.
Yes I have had a great week.
I have sucessfully motorised my roll off roof on my observatory and got all my lighting working in my van (trailer home) and made final arrangements for the earth movers to make my park.
I am going to go all theist on you on my claim...you just have to have faith that I am right as to my claim and besides you can't prove otherwise.
But you no doubt are aware of the fact that the bible is made up of many books but perhaps unaware of origins.. before writing stories were told around a camp fire I expect and biblical stories no doubt were high on the list although maybe they were told indoors ...
Stay safe and well.
Alex

 

[(Q)]

I actually do not have to answer all questions.

You hardly ever answer questions, at least with any honesty.