This is too much to bear anymore!!!

[Buffalo Roam]

So Vietnam and today's iraq aren't examples? If only we had done them right you say, well now if only Romans had done it right they would have rule the whole world 2000 years ago all the way up to today. History is full of mistakes and the pasted 60 years of Israel Palestinian issues going nowhere is a good example, and you say "just do what they are doing harder!' yeah right with what money and what resources could israeli feasible de-brainwash not only the Palestinians but much of the middle east?

Vietnam is a prime example of exactly not following the pattern of WWII, the political will to do what was necessary.

And Iraq? seems that we are winning there, the surge was against the Terrorist, we took them on directly, defeated them and allowed the Iraqi government to stabilize, and not they have control of over 75% of the Country and we are set to with draw.

You haven't been listening, destroying hamas won't solve the problem, its the palistinians them selves.

Well wasn't the problem with Germany the People themselves? they supported the Nazi Government.

Whats a few child guided bombs when you can make more? You were saying they were dieing, no the Palestinian people are doing quite the opposite, they are breeding and magnifying their own depression by overcrowding, making children who have no eduction, no jobs, no future but to become walking bombs and martyrs. Now unless you can come up with a way to kill them off faster then they breeding without causing world wide sanctions against... well I don't think that possible.

So, it is the Palestinan's who are the root of their own problems, and as long as they continue to breed like cats their problems will continue.

Yes.

"You were saying they were dieing, no the Palestinian people are doing quite the opposite, they are breeding and magnifying their own depression by overcrowding, making children who have no eduction, no jobs, no future but to become walking bombs and martyrs."

Really? and if all the time and money spent on weapons had been spent on Infrastructure, Schools and Industry, would the Palestinian's be in the position of, to quote your own words:

overcrowding, making children who have no eduction, no jobs, no future but to become walking bombs and martyrs

The Palestinians not the Israelis are their own worst enemies and murders.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Vietnam is a prime example of exactly not following the pattern of WWII, the political will to do what was necessary.

And Iraq? seems that we are winning there, the surge was against the Terrorist, we took them on directly, defeated them and allowed the Iraqi government to stabilize, and not they have control of over 75% of the Country and we are set to with draw.

Yes, we are winning iraq, 5 years after it was claimed to have been over.

Well wasn't the problem with Germany the People themselves? they supported the Nazi Government.

Say that to the ~.5 million Germans that were also sent to the camps or executed for not supporting the party. Before the nazi started killing Jews, before they started killing the cripple, they started killing any and all political dissenters.

So, it is the Palestinan's who are the root of their own problems, and as long as they continue to breed like cats their problems will continue.

Yes.

"You were saying they were dieing, no the Palestinian people are doing quite the opposite, they are breeding and magnifying their own depression by overcrowding, making children who have no eduction, no jobs, no future but to become walking bombs and martyrs."

Really? and if all the time and money spent on weapons had been spent on Infrastructure, Schools and Industry, would the Palestinian's be in the position of, to quote your own words:

The Palestinians not the Israelis are their own worst enemies and murders.

Never disagreed with that assessment, in fact that was my point all along: the Palestinians not hamas is the source of the problem. hamas is merely a symptom, the Palistinian mind set is the disease. Now how you plan to de-brainwash them all is beyond me, they have been bred to hate israel, the arab states cheer them on while also shoving them into israel's face, because god forbid arab states have to hold these awful people, in fact the arab state us Palestine as a scape goat for all their problems, they need Israel to attack Palestine regularly to keep there citizens attention away from their own failures. So not only Palestine but all of the middle east needs to be de-brainwashed, no problem you say why when it all said and done iraq will be over in ooh ~9 years (complete with-drawly by 2012) and we will have only come close to bankrupting the USA, lets attack iran next, and then jordon, Lebanon, Pakistan, etc, while we are at it we can borrow enough money for the Chinese to legally own us as pets.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Yes, we are winning iraq, 5 years after it was claimed to have been over.


Say that to the ~.5 million Germans that were also sent to the camps or executed for not supporting the party. Before the nazi started killing Jews, before they started killing the cripple, they started killing any and all political dissenters.



Never disagreed with that assessment, in fact that was my point all along: the Palestinians not hamas is the source of the problem. hamas is merely a symptom, the Palistinian mind set is the disease. Now how you plan to de-brainwash them all is beyond me, they have been bred to hate israel, the arab states cheer them on while also shoving them into israel's face, because god forbid arab states have to hold these awful people, in fact the arab state us Palestine as a scape goat for all their problems, they need Israel to attack Palestine regularly to keep there citizens attention away from their own failures. So not only Palestine but all of the middle east needs to be de-brainwashed, no problem you say why when it all said and done iraq will be over in ooh ~9 years (complete with-drawly by 2012) and we will have only come close to bankrupting the USA, lets attack iran next, and then jordon, Lebanon, Pakistan, etc, while we are at it we can borrow enough money for the Chinese to legally own us as pets.

Well, to correct the problem, Hamas needs to be removed, crushed like the blood sucking tic/leach, they are, and that is what Israel is in the process of doing right now, Hamas who is entrenched deeper than a bloodsucking tick/leach is being removed by harsh surgical method, and some good ends up being removed with the bad, and that isn't Israel's fault it is Hamas's and the Palestinians fault, for letting Hamas become so deeply imbedded in the structures of Palestinian society.

Now as to Hamas and the Palestinians:

BBC NEWS | World | Middle East | Israel's history of bomb bl...
Feb 25, 2005 ... 19 June: A suicide bomber kills himself and an Israeli man, .... Hamas admits responsibility. 1 June: Suicide bomb attack on a disco in Tel ...

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1197051.st... - 50k - Similar pages

 

[ElectricFetus]

Well, to correct the problem, Hamas needs to be removed, crushed like the blood sucking tic/leach, they are, and that is what Israel is in the process of doing right now, Hamas who is entrenched deeper than a bloodsucking tick/leach is being removed by harsh surgical method, and some good ends up being removed with the bad, and that isn't Israel's fault it is Hamas's and the Palestinians fault, for letting Hamas become so deeply imbedded in the structures of Palestinian society.

Again hamas is not the problem, even if hamas was removed, a new terrorist organization would fill its place, the Palistinians them selves are the problem, getting ride of hamas is like chopping a head off the hydra!

 

[chuuush]

Who has decided the Evils Committed by the Jews, Islam and Allah?

Seems a good example of Muslim and islamic intollerance of other religion.

So, then the Palestinians have no claim to the lands of Israel-(Allah never gives a land to a people forever)- or does that only apply to those not Muslim.

You are not my match here. I need real intellectuals to discuss matters with. I can bear even the atheists or gays, but I do not feel there is any need to talk with a zealot who repeats empty words again and again. When some people live on a land, it is their land. Violent occupation of an innocent people's land can not be justified with religious dreams.

 

[pjdude1219]

Again hamas is not the problem, even if hamas was removed, a new terrorist organization would fill its place, the Palistinians them selves are the problem, getting ride of hamas is like chopping a head off the hydra!

he's not the brightest bulb in the box. if you want to get somewhere with talking to some one who has kind of the same mind set i would suggest otheadp

 

[StrawDog]

Chuuush

Thanks for your well documented input on this matter. Unfortunately the average American is so steeped in pro Israeli indoctrination, they wont bother to do the necessary (unbiased) research into the background and history of the Palestinian people and their struggle for justice, succinctly indicated by James R`s fence analogy. (to make it easier for the cranially corrupt - Imprisoning a whole nation - John Pilger - johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=438)

What particularly sickens me is the blatant hypocrisy of the POTUS Bush and SOS Condi, who supports Israel in defending itself with overkill against purported Palestinian aggression on the one hand, and on the other hand condemns Russia for defending its citizens (the term disproportionate military response was used) from Georgian aggression.

How can anyone possibly take this government seriously? So blatantly hypocritical without batting an eyelid.

When is the world going to acknowledge the plight of the Palestinian people in the way that the victims of apartheid South Africa were acknowledged?

Unfortunately this foray will cost Israel dearly in the medium to long term. The tide will eventually turn and Israel will be seen for what it is, a desperately insecure apartheid state.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

You are not my match here. I need real intellectuals to discuss matters with. I can bear even the atheists or gays, but I do not feel there is any need to talk with a zealot who repeats empty words again and again. When some people live on a land, it is their land. Violent occupation of an innocent people's land can not be justified with religious dreams.

You are correct I am not your match, you are overmatched, you have a long way to go before you will ever be capable of matching the minimum, standard's of Intellectual Debate.

Empty word, you stand talking in the wind, and your word carry as much weight as the eider on the wind.

You are Truely Legend in Your Own Mind.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

he's not the brightest bulb in the box. if you want to get somewhere with talking to some one who has kind of the same mind set i would suggest otheadp

Still haven't fired that teacher yet, I see.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

chuuush

Must be embarrassing to the Muslim psych to have Jews defeat you in so many battles.

5 million Jews, have defeated the cream of the Arab Armed Might for 60 years, and Israel is still standing right where the Jews want it to be.

Hamas, a lot of soon to be Martyrs, 72 Virgins await in Paradise for you, all of them with the face of Yarsar Arafat, and the breath of a Camel.

 

[StrawDog]

Must be embarrassing to the Muslim psych to have Jews defeat you in so many battles.

5 million Jews, have defeated the cream of the Arab Armed Might for 60 years, and Israel is still standing right where the Jews want it to be.

Hamas, a lot of soon to be Martyrs, 72 Virgins await in Paradise for you, all of them with the face of Yarsar Arafat, and the breath of a Camel.

Its only a matter of time until the Arab world unites and gives Israel a dose of its own medicine. This can still be avoided if sanity prevails and unconditional dialogue is initiated.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Its only a matter of time until the Arab world unites and gives Israel a dose of its own medicine. This can still be avoided if sanity prevails and unconditional dialogue is initiated.

Yes? Arabs unite?

This can still be avoided if sanity prevails and unconditional dialogue is initiated.

Yes, Hamas's unconditional dialogue......Holocaust.......

The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

And as stated in this Quote from the Charter of Hamas, this is not about Zionism, it is about the Jew!!!

This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realized.

Article Six:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned. In the absence of Islam, strife will be rife, oppression spreads, evil prevails and schisms and wars will break out.

StrawDog
Its only a matter of time until the Arab world unites and gives Israel a dose of its own medicine. This can still be avoided if sanity prevails and unconditional dialogue is initiated.

Unconditional Dialogue, yes Unconditional Dialogue, the conditions have already been set in granite, by the Muslims of Hamas, there is no Dialogue Hamas isn't interested in Dialogue, unless it is set by them, in their own words, as set down in Hamas's own Charter.

Strategies and Methods

Strategies of the Islamic Resistance Movement: Palestine Is Islamic aqf:

Article Eleven:
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?

This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.

It happened like this: When the leaders of the Islamic armies conquered Syria and Iraq, they sent to the Caliph of the Moslems, Umar bin-el-Khatab, asking for his advice concerning the conquered land - whether they should divide it among the soldiers, or leave it for its owners, or what? After consultations and discussions between the Caliph of the Moslems, Omar bin-el-Khatab and companions of the Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, it was decided that the land should be left with its owners who could benefit by its fruit. As for the real ownership of the land and the land itself, it should be consecrated for Moslem generations till Judgement Day. Those who are on the land, are there only to benefit from its fruit. This Waqf remains as long as earth and heaven remain. Any procedure in contradiction to Islamic Sharia, where Palestine is concerned, is null and void.

Now how many more lies from you?

 

[StrawDog]

Yes? Arabs unite?

Yes, unite. It will gain momentum.

Gaza will be 'graveyard' for Israeli troops, warns Iran
Tehran joins with Syria to rally support for Palestinians

(guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/04/iran-syria-gaza-israel-palestinian-territories)

Yes, Hamas's unconditional dialogue

I assume you understand the background to the tone of the charter? Historically the Palestinians were forcibly removed from their homeland to make way for the Jewish State of Israel.

And in Gaza today =

A genocide is engulfing the people of Gaza while a silence engulfs its bystanders. "Some 1.4 million people, mostly children, are piled up in one of the most densely populated regions of the world, with no freedom of movement, no place to run and no space to hide," wrote the senior UN relief official, Jan Egeland, and Jan Eliasson, then Swedish foreign minister, in Le Figaro. They described people "living in a cage", cut off by land, sea and air, with no reliable power and little water and tortured by hunger and disease and incessant attacks by Israeli troops and planes.

(newstatesman.com/media/2007/01/pilger-genocide-gaza-palestine)

You expect them to roll over and accept this injustice? Would you?

Now how many more lies from you?

Its not helpful to roll out the tired old charters and predictable Islamophobe arguments without a little historical perspective. Its all about CONTEXT.

 

[nirakar]

Again hamas is not the problem, even if hamas was removed, a new terrorist organization would fill its place, the Palistinians them selves are the problem, getting ride of hamas is like chopping a head off the hydra!

Right, and the problem was not Native Americans who advocated attacking the Euro-Americans who were displacing them, the problem was the Native Americans themselves.

The Palestinians would form a new terrorist organization because they can't imagine any other way in which they might make progress towards their goals. Just as the pro-Israel hawks can't imagine any way to make progress other than to smash their Palestinian enemies.

The problem is that both the pro-Israel hawks and the pro-terrorism Palestinians are probably correct. Compromise leaves neither side with the minimum that they would feel is acceptable.

The only other option that I can see for the Palestinians is to try extreme forms of Gandhian tactics. The British were war weary and ready to leave India. The British did not care as much about losing all of India as I suspect the majority of Israelis would care about losing the territories gained in 1967. Even this loss would barely satisfy the Palestinians because What the UN and the powers behind the UN did in 1948 was an injustice that the Palestinians are going to have to let slide. The war weary British for the most part would not kill peaceful law breakers challenging their authority. If huge groups of the Palestinians in the territories tried to repeatedly escape their enclosures and walk into Israel what would Israel do? put them in conventions prisons? Beat them silly? kill them?

How would the world react? The problem with advocating extreme non-violent Gandhian tactics is that to be successful hundreds of thousands of Palestinians would have to have as much courage and commitment as their suicide bombers have. Perhaps even more courage is required to face repeated beatings than is required to face a quick death in suicide.

These extreme Gandhian tactics would not have worked for the Native Americans because my ancestors would have just killed outright if they tried that method of resisting ethnic cleansing.

Blaming the Palestinians for their situation is as much bullshit as it was to blame the native Americans for their situation; but I understand my ancestors did that too as they were ethnic cleansing the Native Americans out of New England.

 

[skywalker]

I believe Carter's brokering of the peace settelment between Israel and Egypt was based upon exactly this approach.

Where do we start? We are all humans. A dead child is a dead child regardless of the religion of its parents. Do we truly want to see more dead children littering the streets? If you can reach agreement on that point, you move forward.

I really hope that Geoff is not trying to convince us all that it is okay to kill all the Palestinian children.

 

[candy]

It is always a good idea to remember that might does not make right. Winning a war does not mean that the victor will administer a just peace.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

It is always a good idea to remember that might does not make right. Winning a war does not mean that the victor will administer a just peace.

Really, and who writes the History, the Victor.

What do you think the Allies would have look like in the History books, if Germany and Japan had won the war?

The loser get to administer nothing.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Yes, unite. It will gain momentum.

There is not enough trust between them to do so.

(guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/04/iran-syria-gaza-israel-palestinian-territories)

Yes, a Persian oligarchic, and the Arabs are going to unite under Iran?

I have a deed to a bridge in Brooklyn, and I can give you a good deal on it.

I assume you understand the background to the tone of the charter? Historically the Palestinians were forcibly removed from their homeland to make way for the Jewish State of Israel.

What home land pray tell, it was Ottoman Land, Title Deed and Patent, crown land, no home land, just conquered land.

The Arabs didn't recognize it as Palestinian Land in 1948, they wanted it as part of the Pan Arab State, devided between Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt, when the upstart Jews was thrown into the sea.

And in Gaza today =
(newstatesman.com/media/2007/01/pilger-genocide-gaza-palestine)

You expect them to roll over and accept this injustice? Would you?

Genocide in Gaza? yeah, 500 killed, 75% Hamas fighters, yes the Jews really stack up to to the Nazis in running a genocide, if the Israel was intent on Genocide in Gaza, Gaza City would now be a smoking hole in the ground and the casualties numbers would be 1.5 million.

Your statement is so laughable as to be completely Ridiculous, Bombastic, Hyperbole, and dishonestly biased.

Its not helpful to roll out the tired old charters and predictable Islamophobe arguments without a little historical perspective. Its all about CONTEXT.

Why because it exposes the actual intent of the Palestinians Muslims.

Allah gave them the land in perpetuity by conquest? so there for the only dialogue is when Muslims will get it back.

From your own documents, from your own pens, from your own mouths:

“

This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realized.

”

"After consultations and discussions between the Caliph of the Moslems, Omar bin-el-Khatab and companions of the Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, it was decided that the land should be left with its owners who could benefit by its fruit. As for the real ownership of the land and the land itself, it should be consecrated for Moslem generations till Judgement Day. Those who are on the land, are there only to benefit from its fruit. This Waqf remains as long as earth and heaven remain. Any procedure in contradiction to Islamic Sharia, where Palestine is concerned, is null and void. "

 

[chuuush]

Claim 7: And this i the most shameless one. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a problem between the Israelis and the Palestinians. They always need to have enemies to fight with or else they will start to kill their own brethren (and bulshits like that..). You wonder if the sayer has no eye to see and no ear to hear that it is the blind (financial, military, intelligence, strategic..) support of Israel by the west in general and the U.S. in particular that keeps the problem where it is. How do anyone in the West dare acquit themselves from this sin and their governments are the biggest supporters of Israeli terrorism. What if Palestinians adopt the same policy as the U.S. did after 9/11: "You are either with us or against us!". They need to keep asking for forgiveness for every innocent blood shed in Palestine due to their support of terrorism/inaction.

 

[Roman]

You know what is too much to
ebar
anymore?????
HUH!!!!!