This is too much to bear anymore!!!

[dixonmassey]

too many PBR's today?

Your mean Professional Bull Riders or Petroleo Brasileiro?

 

[John99]

Its a PBR and it tastes something like water.

 

[chuuush]

Claim 6: Jews are the real owners of Palestine
This is an obvious lie propagated by the western media and accepted as truth by many people who do not bother themselves to study the history just because of pro-Israeli or anti-Islamic tendencies.
Study this article for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olim#First_Aliyah_.281882-1903.29

Despite war: 250 new olim arrive in Israel
Four flights carrying total of 250 new enthusiastic immigrants from US, Canada and Britain land in Ben Gurion Airport this week. 'The wars and the balagan make day-to-day life in Israel very hard, but there is something special about living here,' says one oleh.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3648962,00.html

Read these words from Gandhi, too:
http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-gandhi170903.htm

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Claim 6: Jews are the real owners of Palestine
This is an obvious lie propagated by the western media and accepted as truth by many people who do not bother themselves to study the history just because of pro-Israeli or anti-Islamic tendencies.
Study this article for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olim#First_Aliyah_.281882-1903.29


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3648962,00.html

Read these words from Gandhi, too:
http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-gandhi170903.htm

Really, let see even the Quran give these lands to Israel:

In the Qur'an, the term الأرض المقدسة (Al-Ard Al-Muqaddasah, English: "Holy Land") is mentioned at least seven times, once when Moses proclaims to the Children of Israel: "O my people! Enter the holy land which Allah hath assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin." (Surah 5:21)

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Your mean Professional Bull Riders or Petroleo Brasileiro?

PBR? that has lubricated many a fine discussion.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Still Tiassa right , the Israelis have far superior military force.

So? It isn't for the lack of trying that Hamas isn't killing more Israelis.

So if someone attacks you with a .22, your not suppose to defend your self with a .45?

Bull Shit, proportional response get more of your own people killed and accomplishes nothing to stop the attacks, it only allows the attacker the ability to rearm and continue the attack.

The State of Israels first responsability is to the defence and safety of it's own Citizens.

 

[ElectricFetus]

So? It isn't for the lack of trying that Hamas isn't killing more Israelis.

So if someone attacks you with a .22, your not suppose to defend your self with a .45?

If that was the case then even if they did in fact have catapults instead of home made rockets, there was no reason for you complain in the first place! Imagine if you will if someone is attacking you with a spoon, do you still pull out the .45 and kill them?

Bull Shit, proportional response get more of your own people killed and accomplishes nothing to stop the attacks, it only allows the attacker the ability to rearm and continue the attack.

I think the better response would have been to ignore them: make a better anti-rocket defense and wall them off, pretend Palestine is dead to them. Its clear hamas was asking for attention they needed it in order to consolidate the Palestinians behind them so they attack Israel knowing full well Israeli would attack them and the Palestinians would fall in line behind them.

The State of Israels first responsibility is to the defense and safety of it's own Citizens.

And again the cycle continues, obviously they must try a different strategy.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

If that was the case then even if they did in fact have catapults instead of home made rockets, there was no reason for you complain in the first place! Imagine if you will if someone is attacking you with a spoon, do you still pull out the .45 and kill them?

Yes, you can kill with a spoon, and it is not incumbent on me, to wait and let you stick it into me, before shooting you with a .45.

I think the better response would have been to ignore them: make a better anti-rocket defense and wall them off, pretend Palestine is dead to them. Its clear hamas was asking for attention they needed it in order to consolidate the Palestinians behind them so they attack Israel knowing full well Israeli would attack them and the Palestinians would fall in line behind them.

So as long as I only shoot at you once a day, and kill some one in your family once a month, you should ignore my actions?

PC logic at is most PC.

And again the cycle continues, obviously they must try a different strategy.

Only if Israel doesn't finish it, and this time Israel seems ready to finish it.

The only way for the cycle to continues if for the world to pull Hamas's Cojones out of the fire, sew them back on, and let them continue as the ruling pack in Gaza.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Yes, you can kill with a spoon, and it is not incumbent on me, to wait and let you stick it into me, before shooting you with a .45.

I doubt many people are going to praise your action, also you better have good lawyers for a court of law might find you guilty even if you claim your were being assaulted with a spoon. It might have been easier simply to grab the spoon as it being swung at you, and help restrain the lunatic instead of committing manslaughter.

So as long as I only shoot at you once a day, and kill some one in your family once a month, you should ignore my actions?

PC logic at is most PC.

Consider the you send in solider kill hundred including dozens of your own, increase violence against you and generally make things worse. having them launch a couple of rockets at you and spending your money on anti-rocket systems would be cheaper, easier and save more lives. Action and consequences must be considered in logic.

Only if Israel doesn't finish it, and this time Israel seems ready to finish it.

Riiiiiigggggghhhtt, how much you want to bet hamas or a succeeding terrorist organization will grow back within months or a few years at most?

The only way for the cycle to continues if for the world to pull Hamas's Cojones out of the fire, sew them back on, and let them continue as the ruling pack in Gaza.

As if there was not millions of Palestinians to take their place, terrorism is not a person or group that can be killed, it is an idea: as long as there is a population crazy enough to take up the cause it will never go away.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

I doubt many people are going to praise your action, also you better have good lawyers for a court of law might find you guilty even if you claim your were being assaulted with a spoon. It might have been easier simply to grab the spoon as it being swung at you, and help restrain the lunatic instead of committing manslaughter.

Having worked in Law Enforcement, as a Corrections Office, I have seen what can be done with a spoon.

It makes a excellent shiv, and is fully capable of inflicting serious bodily injury and death.

That is covered under the self defense laws, reasonable fear of great bodily injury or death.

Consider the you send in solider kill hundred including dozens of your own, increase violence against you and generally make things worse. having them launch a couple of rockets at you and spending your money on anti-rocket systems would be cheaper, easier and save more lives. Action and consequences must be considered in logic.

Isn't that exactly what we did in WWII? and in the end the violence stopped and the numbers of dead declined, and our enemies became our friends?

Riiiiiigggggghhhtt, how much you want to bet hamas or a succeeding terrorist organization will grow back within months or a few years at most?

Again that depends on what Israel does if it completes the mission and enforces a defeat on Hamas.

If they follow a Marshall Type Plan, and Denazification Policy, only this would be a Dehamasazation Policy, as we did after WWII, I doubt it.

Again History has a successful example of how tot deal with this, WWII.

As if there was not millions of Palestinians to take their place, terrorism is not a person or group that can be killed, it is an idea: as long as there is a population crazy enough to take up the cause it will never go away.

Then they will continue to die, and it is their choice, Hamas is the one who has chosen this path, and if the Palestinians want to continue down this path, then more death and destruction awaits them, Japan followed this path in WWII, and in the end, defeat was forced on them, we didn't have to wipe them out, and in the end peace came, the dying from a useless war stopped, they rebuilt, and became a Allie, and the world moved on.

Your solution is the destruction of Israel, that is the Goal of Hamas, is that your solution to?

Israel doesn't seek the destruction of the Palestinians, only those who continue to attack Israel, and those who attack Israel are the Government of Gaza, and as with all such Governments the People end up paying the Price of Government Policy, and it is Hamas's Policy to seek the total destruction of Israel, and it's People, and reoccupy all of Israel, even the lands of U.N. Resolution 181.

 

[dixonmassey]

Buffalo, I have a "theoretical" question for ya. Care to answer?

Here it goes.

A Cherokee nation-state is being restored in Tennessee, Georgia and North Carolina. Cherokees begin to expropriate ancestral land from descendants of the white settlers while making references to the Cherokee Holy book and covenant with Big Bear, which gave them the eternal right to that land. Some white settlers are killed, some expelled into surrounding states, some locked into crammed ghettos and refugee camps, which are periodically bombed and raided. Remaining settler's farms are confiscated on the slightest pretense. Homes and orchards are bulldozed, some farmers are killed the rest is locked up in crowded ghettos to free the space for the Cherokees settlers.

Even more than that. There is the country across the pond, big country with huge military, self-proclaimed champion and defender of freedom and democracy around the Globe (especially if Book of Holy Bear is involved). That country bankrolls Cherokee re-conquista, it arms Cherokee army, it keeps Cherokee economy and state afloat.

WHAT would YOU do?

Second question, how do you feel about "targeted" assassinations without trial? Not just "a single killer taking a shot to kill Mr. X". How do you feel about "targeted" assassination by shooting a missile into crowded area of Manhattan? Would you like it? Would you spend hours justifying it, or you just fell in love with Jewish targeted assassinations? Keep in mind, USA does not honor many requests to extradite criminals/terrorists to their motherlands. Frequently, those people have quite luxurious lifestyle here.

Is it OK for the countries not getting their requests granted to shoot a missile or two into a cozy burb where sought after individuals reside? 30 years or so ago, USA gave asylum to soviet plane hijackers (who killed a flight attendant in the process) http://articles.latimes.com/2002/feb/09/local/me-charge9. Had USSR launched a missile or two to target those individual residences, what would you say? Would you get the same orgasmic feelings you get after Israeli shoot a missile into Gaza Strip to "target" terrorists?

 

[Carcano]

Well in 1948, the Arabs wanted all the Jewish lands, and no fence.

There were no Jewish lands...only Jewish invaders.

 

[Mr.Spock]

peace in the ME

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Buffalo, I have a "theoretical" question for ya. Care to answer?

Here it goes.

A Cherokee nation-state is being restored in Tennessee, Georgia and North Carolina. Cherokees begin to expropriate ancestral land from descendants of the white settlers while making references to the Cherokee Holy book and covenant with Big Bear, which gave them the eternal right to that land. Some white settlers are killed, some expelled into surrounding states, some locked into crammed ghettos and refugee camps, which are periodically bombed and raided. Remaining settler's farms are confiscated on the slightest pretense. Homes and orchards are bulldozed, some farmers are killed the rest is locked up in crowded ghettos to free the space for the Cherokees settlers.

Even more than that. There is the country across the pond, big country with huge military, self-proclaimed champion and defender of freedom and democracy around the Globe (especially if Book of Holy Bear is involved). That country bankrolls Cherokee re-conquista, it arms Cherokee army, it keeps Cherokee economy and state afloat.

WHAT would YOU do?

Second question, how do you feel about "targeted" assassinations without trial? Not just "a single killer taking a shot to kill Mr. X". How do you feel about "targeted" assassination by shooting a missile into crowded area of Manhattan? Would you like it? Would you spend hours justifying it, or you just fell in love with Jewish targeted assassinations? Keep in mind, USA does not honor many requests to extradite criminals/terrorists to their motherlands. Frequently, those people have quite luxurious lifestyle here.

Is it OK for the countries not getting their requests granted to shoot a missile or two into a cozy burb where sought after individuals reside? 30 years or so ago, USA gave asylum to soviet plane hijackers (who killed a flight attendant in the process) http://articles.latimes.com/2002/feb/09/local/me-charge9. Had USSR launched a missile or two to target those individual residences, what would you say? Would you get the same orgasmic feelings you get after Israeli shoot a missile into Gaza Strip to "target" terrorists?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return

Resolution 242 from the UN affirms the necessity for "achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem," however, Resolution 242 does not specify that the "just settlement" must or should be in the form of a literal Palestinian right of return.[61][62]

Reality is the answer, the Reality is, the Ottoman Empire, WWI, the Palestinian Mandate of the League of Nations, WWII, U.N. Resolution 181, and the Arabs going to war in contravention of U.N. Resolution 181, the Right of Return, Title, Deed, and Patent, not your hypothetical question.

The First Fact, there has never been a Palestinian State or Nation, the land was part of the Ottoman Empire.

The Second Fact, the Ottoman Empire who gained control of the land by conquest lost control of the land by War. That control passed to the British by Treaty and Mandate.

The Third Fact, The Mandate was by action of Treaty and the League of Nations as a settlement of WWI.

The Fourth Fact, WWII, again the Middle East and the Mandates for it were open to conquest, but the Germans and the Italians lost the War.

The Fifth Fact, the U.N. in inheritance of the League of Nation Mandates, implemented the Actions of Said Mandates, and established the Free States of Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Transjordan, Palestine, and Israel, buy law and treaty.

The Sixth Fact is that the Arabs in contravention of the Treaty that They signed to gain Entrance to the United Nations, went to War to stop the implementation of U.N. Restitution 181, which created a Palestinian State, and a Israeli State, and in its place create a Pan Arab State.

The Seventh Fact, The Right of Return, that right was contingent on returning in Peace, and the Arabs failed to make Peace after the 1948 war.

The Right of return was predicated on, the League of Nations Mandates as Inherited by the U.N.:

The British Mandate of Palestine authorizing document conferred on Britain by the League of Nations in 1922, addressed the idea of a right of Jews to return to Israel. Article 6 of that document reads in part: "The Administration of Palestine... shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in cooperation with the Jewish agency... close settlement by Jews on the land...". However, the League of Nations mandate also echoes the language of the British declaration, demanding that the mandatory power "safeguard the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion,".

And:

It reflects a belief that Palestinian refugees and their descendants have a right to return to the homes their families had possessed and left prior to, during or due to the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.[1]

The non-binding UN General Assembly Resolution 194 was passed on December 11, 1948 which recommended that the Palestinian and Jewish refugees should be permitted to return if they are willing to live in peace with their neighbors. The text of its Article 11: "[r]esolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property..."[12] The Arab states originally rejected this resolution, although today they often leverage it in arguing for a Palestinian right of return.

The Arabs rejected this Non-Binding Resolution

And under the U.N.'s definition, linial decendents:

This is also reflected in the 1951 Convention relating to the Status of Refugee. However, the 1951 Convention relating to the Status of Refugees http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/o_c_ref.htm also states: "When such protection or assistance has ceased for any reason, without the position of such persons being definitively settled in accordance with the relevant resolutions adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations, these persons shall ipso facto be entitled to the benefits of this Convention."

Because UNRWA's 'working definition' of Palestine Refugees is only in order to qualify for UNRWA support until a final settlement and, unlike the UNHCR, UNRWA does not facilitate RoR, it can be argued that their RoR falls 'ipso facto to the UNHCR, under which lineal descendants are not included.

There is no formal mechanism in international law to demand repatriation of Palestinian refugees and their descendants. No international legislation, UN resolutions or agreements between Israel and the Palestinians require this.[47]

Historical legal precedent from the Middle East supports this contention. Since none of the 900,000 Jewish refugees who fled anti-Semitic violence in the Arab world were ever compensated or repatriated by their former countries of residence—to no objection on the part of Arab leaders—a precedent has been set whereby it is the responsibility of the nation which accepts the refugees to assimilate them.[48]

If all or a large majority of Palestinian refugees exercised their right of return, it would make Arabs the majority within Israel. This would essentially end Israel's existence as a Jewish state.[48]

The Strongest Legal basis for Palestinians, is a Non Binding Resolution that carries no weight of Law

The strongest legal basis on the issue is UN Resolution 194, adopted in 1948. It states that, "the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible." UN Resolution 3236 "reaffirms also the inalienable right of the Palestinians to return to their homes and property from which they have been displaced and uprooted, and calls for their return".

Resolution 242 from the UN affirms the necessity for "achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem," however, Resolution 242 does not specify that the "just settlement" must or should be in the form of a literal Palestinian right of return.[61][62]

The Eight Fact is Title, Deed, and Patent, the basis of land ownership across the the World, even in the Muslim World.

With out competent, Title, Deed, or Patent, there is no claim on the land, and those were the laws of the Old World, and became the Laws of the New World.

 

[chuuush]

Really, let see even the Quran give these lands to Israel:

In the Qur'an, the term الأرض المقدسة (Al-Ard Al-Muqaddasah, English: "Holy Land") is mentioned at least seven times, once when Moses proclaims to the Children of Israel: "O my people! Enter the holy land which Allah hath assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin." (Surah 5:21)

This verse does have nothing to support a Jewish claim to Palestine. It also clearly mentions that they will overthrown for their evils.

4. And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!

5. When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our servants given to terrible warfare. They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.

6. Then did We grant you victory over them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power.

Allah never gives a land to a people forever. So no people have the right to claim a God-given right of ownership to a land their fore-fore-fore-fathers lived on thousands of years ago. Otherwise, your given proof can be easily countered with other verses of Holy Quran:

And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, and of a land which ye had not frequented (before). And Allah has power over all things.33:27

 

[Buffalo Roam]

This verse does have nothing to support a Jewish claim to Palestine. It also clearly mentions that they will overthrown for their evils.

Who has decided the Evils Committed by the Jews, Islam and Allah?

Seems a good example of Muslim and islamic intollerance of other religion.

Allah never gives a land to a people forever. So no people have the right to claim a God-given right of ownership to a land their fore-fore-fore-fathers lived on thousands of years ago. Otherwise, your given proof can be easily countered with other verses of Holy Quran:

So, then the Palestinians have no claim to the lands of Israel-(Allah never gives a land to a people forever)- or does that only apply to those not Muslim.

 

[Mr.Spock]

Escape from Hamas

A story about a Muslim who turned away from Hamas and Islam and converted to Christianity no less.

link 1

link 2

link 3

link 4

link 5

link 6

 

[ElectricFetus]

Having worked in Law Enforcement, as a Corrections Office, I have seen what can be done with a spoon.

It makes a excellent shiv, and is fully capable of inflicting serious bodily injury and death.

That is covered under the self defense laws, reasonable fear of great bodily injury or death.

Have a good time convincing people people of that, the public image will be you a trigger happy pig kills hilariously insane bum, I now law enforcement doesn't understand how much public relations matter.

Isn't that exactly what we did in WWII? and in the end the violence stopped and the numbers of dead declined, and our enemies became our friends?

Again WWII was very different, with defined armies and hierarchy, Hamas is not the source of terrorism in Israel, the Palestinians are, no matter how weaponless or lacking in command structure they will try to kill Israelis, unlike the German people or the Japanese.

Again that depends on what Israel does if it completes the mission and enforces a defeat on Hamas.

If they follow a Marshall Type Plan, and Denazification Policy, only this would be a Dehamasazation Policy, as we did after WWII, I doubt it.

Again History has a successful example of how tot deal with this, WWII.

De-brainwash the entire Palestinian population? Nice idea but impossible to implement, a large percentage of Palestinians are in jordon and lebenon, israel would have to take over those states as well to get at them, might as well ask Israel to take over iran while their at it, in fact make that the whole middle east.

Then they will continue to die, and it is their choice, Hamas is the one who has chosen this path, and if the Palestinians want to continue down this path, then more death and destruction awaits them, Japan followed this path in WWII, and in the end, defeat was forced on them, we didn't have to wipe them out, and in the end peace came, the dying from a useless war stopped, they rebuilt, and became a Allie, and the world moved on.

Continue to die? Have you seen the demographics the Palestinians are breeding like crazy!

The Japanese had a social structure that force them to be submissive after unthinkable defeat, especially when their "god" called for surrender after being nuked twice, the Germans had the death camps to shove in their face to admit their wrongness. The Palestinians applaud sending children to kill, applaud using children as shields, and the rest of the Muslim world applauds them, funds them, smuggles weapons to them and keeps them oppressed in camps and as non-citizens so the Palestinians will have no where to go but through Israel.

Your solution is the destruction of Israel, that is the Goal of Hamas, is that your solution to?

I don't know where you got this idea.

Israel doesn't seek the destruction of the Palestinians, only those who continue to attack Israel, and those who attack Israel are the Government of Gaza, and as with all such Governments the People end up paying the Price of Government Policy, and it is Hamas's Policy to seek the total destruction of Israel, and it's People, and reoccupy all of Israel, even the lands of U.N. Resolution 181.

A large percentage of the Palestinians peoples policy is the total destruction of israel, not just hamas, fuck a large percentage of the whole middle east is that.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Have a good time convincing people people of that, the public image will be you a trigger happy pig kills hilariously insane bum, I now law enforcement doesn't understand how much public relations matter.

Again WWII was very different, with defined armies and hierarchy, Hamas is not the source of terrorism in Israel, the Palestinians are, no matter how weaponless or lacking in command structure they will try to kill Israelis, unlike the German people or the Japanese.

De-brainwash the entire Palestinian population? Nice idea but impossible to implement, a large percentage of Palestinians are in jordon and lebenon, israel would have to take over those states as well to get at them, might as well ask Israel to take over iran while their at it, in fact make that the whole middle east.

Continue to die? Have you seen the demographics the Palestinians are breeding like crazy!

The Japanese had a social structure that force them to be submissive after unthinkable defeat, especially when their "god" called for surrender after being nuked twice, the Germans had the death camps to shove in their face to admit their wrongness. The Palestinians applaud sending children to kill, applaud using children as shields, and the rest of the Muslim world applauds them, funds them, smuggles weapons to them and keeps them oppressed in camps and as non-citizens so the Palestinians will have no where to go but through Israel.

I don't know where you got this idea.

A large percentage of the Palestinians peoples policy is the total destruction of israel, not just hamas, fuck a large percentage of the whole middle east is that.

And for all of your pontification History doesn't back you, or your theory.

"A large percentage of the Palestinians peoples policy is the total destruction of israel, not just hamas, fuck a large percentage of the whole middle east is that."

So you have just given the reason that Israel has justification to invade Gaza and destroy Hamas.

'Continue to die? Have you seen the demographics the Palestinians are breeding like crazy!"

And exactly what does the litter rate's, have to do with them Dying for attacking Israel?

Just because they have a breeding rate that is out of control, is no impediment to them dying in a useless war against Israel, in fact it seems to be a desired goal to become a Martyr for the Cause.

 

[ElectricFetus]

And for all of your pontification History doesn't back you, or your theory.

So Vietnam and today's iraq aren't examples? If only we had done them right you say, well now if only Romans had done it right they would have rule the whole world 2000 years ago all the way up to today. History is full of mistakes and the pasted 60 years of Israel Palestinian issues going nowhere is a good example, and you say "just do what they are doing harder!' yeah right with what money and what resources could israeli feasible de-brainwash not only the Palestinians but much of the middle east?

So you have just given the reason that Israel has justification to invade Gaza and destroy Hamas.

You haven't been listening, destroying hamas won't solve the problem, its the palistinians them selves.

And exactly what does the litter rate's, have to do with them Dying for attacking Israel?

Whats a few child guided bombs when you can make more? You were saying they were dieing, no the Palestinian people are doing quite the opposite, they are breeding and magnifying their own depression by overcrowding, making children who have no eduction, no jobs, no future but to become walking bombs and martyrs. Now unless you can come up with a way to kill them off faster then they breeding without causing world wide sanctions against... well I don't think that possible.