Thinking too hard

[jayleew]

There are a lot of philosophies here being that we have a large group of people with different experiences and perspectives. We can look at what each person believes and their searching questions to develop their personal truth.

Thank you wesmorris for providing the conceptualization of the Tao, and I'm glad that you can understand things that way. But all of this is just a little too much thinking. I grow weary of all of these things.

There was a man written of in a book. His name was Jesus, people claim that he said some things and performed miracles. He also said that there are many ways to live. He also said that he is the way, the truth, and the life. And he further said, take my yoke which is light. And it is light, and I do take it, and move on and live a good life not worrying about things and having to think so much. Because when we think so much and find the truth, we only find more questions.

Many authors claim that the Messiah is the son of God. Those that believe are blessed because they have a light load and faith like a child. Is faith the easy way out rather than tackling life's issues? Sure, Jesus said it is. But how do you want to spend your life? Worrying about human nature and ethics? Or just giving in to any desire man has and dealing with the consequences later? There are too many questions that cannot be answered. There are ultimately no definitive answers as there will never be a unanimous decision about anything. Controversy is the child of diversity. And a diverse people is good.

"Don't worry, be happy" is the easiest way to live and it is personified by Jesus's teachings. Is it mindless and irrational to accept on faith? If you think long and hard about it, yes it is. Is it dangerous? In the hands of arrogant men, yes, that is proven by history.

Are you expected to take the Jesus's claims without reason? No. If you want to know something, you ask, and you test, and you probe...but not from men? If you don't understand something about the whole thing, do you throw it away as a waste of time because science provides the answers? If you do, then you lay a yoke on yourself to find the truth and it is heavy because there are so many ethical ways to live that are imperfectly made by man.

Christianity is a way to live, nothing more. It is established by a man named Jesus and many authors, heroes, and villains. So many people look to it for a crutch, or comfort, or saftey, or instruction. Those that do get burned, turn away from God because they are disappointed when they don't see the lightning bolt from the sky smite their enemies. Since Christianity is just a way to live, does that mean God does not exist? If you are arrogant or close-minded, I suppose it does mean that. Is there hope that God exists? I believe there is because of my own experiences.

So, I am a Christian because I follow Christ's teachings to the best of my ability. Has that anything to do with God or me being saved? Maybe not. Maybe it is the realtionship and faith in God and that Jesus was his son instead. Jesus said that if you believe in him, you will go to heaven. It is illogical to say you believe in him and not follow him. Even if you had not read one verse in the Bible. But you can follow his teachings, and not believe in him, as a way of life.

The fact is that you can be a Christian and find God, and you can be a Christian and not find God. You can also not be a Christian and find God, or you can not be a Christian and not find God. It is supported in the stories of the Bible and in people's lives today.

Christianity is indeed just a way of life, it has nothing to do with your faith in God. And for those that believe in God, the Bible ceases to be an instruction manual that you only pick up in case of need.

My point to all this is that believing in Jesus is a much more fuller way to experience life and much easier. He said himself that he came so that we could do just that. Is it just a fairy tale? Sure it is. If it weren't, faith would not be necessary and we might believe in him for the wrong reason and not because we love him. Just as Hollywood stars marry, knowing that their spouse is rich, and the rich spouse can never truly know whether or not they truly have the other's faith and love. It is very important that God be a tall tale. But, as with many legends, there is fact underlying the fiction. And the story told is very clear (at least what I get out of it by the Bible and my experience): I love you, please believe in me. I promise you many things in this life and the next, including a life void of sin. But I must be sure that you love me. If you take a chance with me even in the face of doubts, that will tell me you do, and I can reveal myself to you to encourage you on Earth. And you will see me after you die. I do not dare influence your decision by smiting your enemies or favoring the saint, for that would not give you the choice to believe. I must be silent, but I will lift your heart, and by that, you will know I am. And I will never forsake you, even if you don't understand my ways. Don't worry, in the end the truth will be known by all. And those that don't love me will not harm you and they will have the eternity they have always wanted. They will have their freedom and I will not be there to provide justice. But they may not like it because I send them to a place with the rest of them who want their own way. And each one will have their own way there. There will be murderers, adulterers, thieves, and all manner of evil souls. And Satan would rather burn in a lake of fire than to be my love slave, he forgets himself. Each one will have their own way there, including him. Therefore, good and evil shall still exist, but they will be seperate for the sake of the other.

 

[spidergoat]

Because when we think so much and find the truth, we only find more questions.

Mostly true, but Jesus wasn't the first or only one with that approach, like these passages from the Tao Te Ching:

See the world as your self.
Have faith in the way things are.
Love the world as your self;
then you can care for all things.
Vs. 13

Stop thinking, and end your problems.
What difference between yes and no?
What difference between success and failure?
Must you value what others value,
avoid what others avoid?
How ridiculous!

Other people are excited,
as though they were at a parade.
I alone don't care,
I alone am expressionless,
like an infant before it can smile.

Other people have what they need;
I alone possess nothing.
I alone drift about,
like someone without a home.
I am like an idiot, my mind is so empty.

Other people are bright;
I alone am dark.
Other people are sharper;
I alone am dull.
Other people have a purpose;
I alone don't know.
I drift like a wave on the ocean,
I blow as aimless as the wind.
Vs. 20

 

[Medicine*Woman]

jayleew: There are a lot of philosophies here being that we have a large group of people with different experiences and perspectives. We can look at what each person believes and their searching questions to develop their personal truth.

Thank you wesmorris for providing the conceptualization of the Tao, and I'm glad that you can understand things that way. But all of this is just a little too much thinking. I grow weary of all of these things.
*************
M*W: Yes, "too much thinking" is a problem for the Christian. His religion frowns on thinking for oneself.
*************
jayleew: There was a man written of in a book. His name was Jesus, people claim that he said some things and performed miracles. He also said that there are many ways to live. He also said that he is the way, the truth, and the life. And he further said, take my yoke which is light. And it is light, and I do take it, and move on and live a good life not worrying about things and having to think so much. Because when we think so much and find the truth, we only find more questions.
*************
M*W: Jesus was a character in a book. This character was created from some 16-25 earlier dying demigod saviors who came before him. The miracles he performed were simply literary devices. Jesus was not an historic person, so he didn't really say anything. Again, literary devices. People take the character of Jesus literally, believing he died for their sins. Since he never lived, he did not die, much less for anyone's sins. A lot of people who believe the character of Jesus is real try not to think too much about anything else. Possibly out of fear of learning too much. It's just easier not to think about other possibilities such as the truth.
*************
jayleew: Many authors claim that the Messiah is the son of God. Those that believe are blessed because they have a light load and faith like a child. Is faith the easy way out rather than tackling life's issues? Sure, Jesus said it is. But how do you want to spend your life? Worrying about human nature and ethics? Or just giving in to any desire man has and dealing with the consequences later? There are too many questions that cannot be answered. There are ultimately no definitive answers as there will never be a unanimous decision about anything. Controversy is the child of diversity. And a diverse people is good.
*************
M*W: You are correct. "Many authors claim...", but there is still no proof of those claims. The concept of the Messiah has been around thousands of years before the character of Jesus. The character of Moses saw himself as a Messiah as did Abraham, Zeus, Heracles and all the rest of the dying demigod saviors mentioned throughout literature. It really is quite easier to believe in just one of them than to question them all. Questioning would be sacreligious or even blasphemous! It's just easier not to question. Believing in just one dying demigod savior is less confusing than acknowledging two or three or thirty earlier saviors have existed. It's easier not to have to "tackle life's issues." So, to avoid all confusion of believing in mythical characters, it's better to believe in just one, even if none of them ever existed. Believing in just one makes it so, it seems.
*************
jayleew: "Don't worry, be happy" is the easiest way to live and it is personified by Jesus's teachings. Is it mindless and irrational to accept on faith? If you think long and hard about it, yes it is. Is it dangerous? In the hands of arrogant men, yes, that is proven by history.
*************
M*W: Jesus had no teachings outside of his mythical character. It's like Aesop's Fables. The tortoise and the hare had personalities and ambitions and philosophies. We've heard the story so many times, it seems to be true. We could talk about the characterizations of the tortoise and the hare till we were blue in the face, but the tortoise will always come out ahead because of the lessons he taught. We could have faith in the hare, but that still gets us nowhere. So, it's better to believe in the tortoise and not think too much about the hare or his place in literature.
*************
jayleew: Are you expected to take the Jesus's claims without reason? No. If you want to know something, you ask, and you test, and you probe...but not from men? If you don't understand something about the whole thing, do you throw it away as a waste of time because science provides the answers? If you do, then you lay a yoke on yourself to find the truth and it is heavy because there are so many ethical ways to live that are imperfectly made by man.
*************
M*W: Jesus' mythological "claims" were literary devices. We could believe all day long that Jesus said this or that. We could study and research the character of Jesus and his mythos, and we could even anthropomorphize him so we would be better able to understand the myth. Regardless of what we think about Jesus or Tom Sawyer or Jean Valjean, it makes no difference whatsoever. We can discuss them, we can hold seminars and give speeches about them, we can give them human characteristics and frailties, but we cannot make them real. When we begin to make them real, the yoke's on us.
*************
jayleew: Christianity is a way to live, nothing more. It is established by a man named Jesus and many authors, heroes, and villains. So many people look to it for a crutch, or comfort, or saftey, or instruction. Those that do get burned, turn away from God because they are disappointed when they don't see the lightning bolt from the sky smite their enemies. Since Christianity is just a way to live, does that mean God does not exist? If you are arrogant or close-minded, I suppose it does mean that. Is there hope that God exists? I believe there is because of my own experiences.
*************
M*W: People erroneously believe that the mythic Jesus created a religion called Christianity, but this is not true. The character of Jesus was a Jew and a Rabbi not a Christian. But, like all literary characters, we are free to understand them as best as we can conceptualize them. God is a literary character, too. Does that mean he doesn't exist? God and Jesus exist equally with the tortoise and the hare, Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn, Captain Ahab and Moby Dick. Do we believe in them? Yes, I would say, because they do "exist," but not in the way we think of them. We can even have "experiences" of them that make them seem more real to us, but they are just as real as Jesus and God are. And, yes, they give us hope to live by, like winning the race, not drowning on the raft, or spearing the great white whale. They are all just characters in a book. They don't need to be real to get their message across. It's literary devices.
*************
jayleew: So, I am a Christian because I follow Christ's teachings to the best of my ability. Has that anything to do with God or me being saved? Maybe not. Maybe it is the realtionship and faith in God and that Jesus was his son instead. Jesus said that if you believe in him, you will go to heaven. It is illogical to say you believe in him and not follow him. Even if you had not read one verse in the Bible. But you can follow his teachings, and not believe in him, as a way of life.
*************
M*W: Belief in itself is a good thing, except when it is used as transference from fiction to fact. It's just logical to understand that what you read and what you believe may not concur. Belief comes from our ability to understand the difference between fact and fiction. Fact is that Jesus existed in literature. Fiction is that Jesus died for your salvation.
*************
jayleew: The fact is that you can be a Christian and find God, and you can be a Christian and not find God. You can also not be a Christian and find God, or you can not be a Christian and not find God. It is supported in the stories of the Bible and in people's lives today.
*************
M*W: Ultimately, we can be anything we want to believe we can be. You choose to believe in a storybook character. I choose not to, and I know the difference.
*************
jayleew: Christianity is indeed just a way of life, it has nothing to do with your faith in God. And for those that believe in God, the Bible ceases to be an instruction manual that you only pick up in case of need.
*************
M*W: Point well made. Floating down the Mississippi on a raft is a way of life, but I don't worship Mark Twain.
*************
jayleew: My point to all this is that believing in Jesus is a much more fuller way to experience life and much easier. He said himself that he came so that we could do just that. Is it just a fairy tale? Sure it is. If it weren't, faith would not be necessary and we might believe in him for the wrong reason and not because we love him. Just as Hollywood stars marry, knowing that their spouse is rich, and the rich spouse can never truly know whether or not they truly have the other's faith and love. It is very important that God be a tall tale. But, as with many legends, there is fact underlying the fiction. And the story told is very clear (at least what I get out of it by the Bible and my experience): I love you, please believe in me. I promise you many things in this life and the next, including a life void of sin. But I must be sure that you love me. If you take a chance with me even in the face of doubts, that will tell me you do, and I can reveal myself to you to encourage you on Earth. And you will see me after you die. I do not dare influence your decision by smiting your enemies or favoring the saint, for that would not give you the choice to believe. I must be silent, but I will lift your heart, and by that, you will know I am. And I will never forsake you, even if you don't understand my ways. Don't worry, in the end the truth will be known by all. And those that don't love me will not harm you and they will have the eternity they have always wanted. They will have their freedom and I will not be there to provide justice. But they may not like it because I send them to a place with the rest of them who want their own way. And each one will have their own way there. There will be murderers, adulterers, thieves, and all manner of evil souls. And Satan would rather burn in a lake of fire than to be my love slave, he forgets himself. Each one will have their own way there, including him. Therefore, good and evil shall still exist, but they will be seperate for the sake of the other.
*************
M*W: Reading the great books of literature makes life more worth living.You just have to keep perspective on what is real and what is fantasy. I'm afraid you still have a problem in this area. Love does not come from an outside source. Love develops from within. Religion doesn't teach this concept. Christianity turns the focus of love coming from within to finding the love you need in a fictional character! The evil in the world starts in one's mind. If you believe that Jesus exists and Satan exists to counter everything Jesus said and did, then you believe in the efficacy of literary devices. And, if you're interested, I have for sale some Egyptian chariot wheels that I fished out of the Red Sea.

 

[jayleew]

M*W: Yes, "too much thinking" is a problem for the Christian. His religion frowns on thinking for oneself.

I agree with you, and that is a problem with religion.

M*W: You are correct. "Many authors claim...", but there is still no proof of those claims. The concept of the Messiah has been around thousands of years before the character of Jesus. The character of Moses saw himself as a Messiah as did Abraham, Zeus, Heracles and all the rest of the dying demigod saviors mentioned throughout literature. It really is quite easier to believe in just one of them than to question them all. Questioning would be sacreligious or even blasphemous! It's just easier not to question. Believing in just one dying demigod savior is less confusing than acknowledging two or three or thirty earlier saviors have existed. It's easier not to have to "tackle life's issues." So, to avoid all confusion of believing in mythical characters, it's better to believe in just one, even if none of them ever existed. Believing in just one makes it so, it seems.

Moses and Abraham did not think of themselves as a Messiah. All the prophets in the Bible do not claim to be prophets, it was the title given.
There is no proof of the claims. What if there was? Would you believe? Would you love out of fear? If there was proof of God, God would have nothing but a bunch of nimwits. Many people, knowing God, would love him for many reasons (fear and greed are two), but he wants us to love him without any strings.

M*W: Jesus' mythological "claims" were literary devices. We could believe all day long that Jesus said this or that. We could study and research the character of Jesus and his mythos, and we could even anthropomorphize him so we would be better able to understand the myth. Regardless of what we think about Jesus or Tom Sawyer or Jean Valjean, it makes no difference whatsoever. We can discuss them, we can hold seminars and give speeches about them, we can give them human characteristics and frailties, but we cannot make them real. When we begin to make them real, the yoke's on us.

No, if Jesus is real in one's mind, there are no burdens. That's a little of my point.

M*W: People erroneously believe that the mythic Jesus created a religion called Christianity, but this is not true. The character of Jesus was a Jew and a Rabbi not a Christian. But, like all literary characters, we are free to understand them as best as we can conceptualize them. God is a literary character, too. Does that mean he doesn't exist? God and Jesus exist equally with the tortoise and the hare, Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn, Captain Ahab and Moby Dick. Do we believe in them? Yes, I would say, because they do "exist," but not in the way we think of them. We can even have "experiences" of them that make them seem more real to us, but they are just as real as Jesus and God are. And, yes, they give us hope to live by, like winning the race, not drowning on the raft, or spearing the great white whale. They are all just characters in a book. They don't need to be real to get their message across. It's literary devices.
*************

There are distinct differences with the Bible and a fiction novel, namely the number of contributing authors who provide witness.

M*W: Belief in itself is a good thing, except when it is used as transference from fiction to fact. It's just logical to understand that what you read and what you believe may not concur. Belief comes from our ability to understand the difference between fact and fiction. Fact is that Jesus existed in literature. Fiction is that Jesus died for your salvation.

I'm sorry you believe that. Honestly, what would it take to believe in Jesus for you? Skepticism is good, ignorance is bad.

M*W: Point well made. Floating down the Mississippi on a raft is a way of life, but I don't worship Mark Twain.

We can establish upon a nearly unanimous decision that Mark Twain is a fiction writer. The same cannot be said of John or Matthew.

M*W: Reading the great books of literature makes life more worth living.You just have to keep perspective on what is real and what is fantasy. I'm afraid you still have a problem in this area. Love does not come from an outside source. Love develops from within. Religion doesn't teach this concept. Christianity turns the focus of love coming from within to finding the love you need in a fictional character! The evil in the world starts in one's mind. If you believe that Jesus exists and Satan exists to counter everything Jesus said and did, then you believe in the efficacy of literary devices. And, if you're interested, I have for sale some Egyptian chariot wheels that I fished out of the Red Sea.

You are confused about Christianity, at least, if you think that it teaches love does not come from within. What do you know of God, what do you know of Christianity? What defines your perception?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

jayleew: Moses and Abraham did not think of themselves as a Messiah. All the prophets in the Bible do not claim to be prophets, it was the title given. There is no proof of the claims. What if there was? Would you believe? Would you love out of fear? If there was proof of God, God would have nothing but a bunch of nimwits. Many people, knowing God, would love him for many reasons (fear and greed are two), but he wants us to love him without any strings.
*************
M*W: Believing god loves you is wishful thinking. Only humans and some higher animals can experience the emotion of love. If god was omnipotent, he wouldn't have emotions. But god doesn't exist, so the emotions are emanations from your mind based on what you've experienced. The Moses character did, in fact, think of himself as a messiah, a leader of his people to their salvation. Neither do I believe Moses nor Abraham existed, only their characterizations in allegorical literature. The title of "prophet" means nothing. If that were the case, then we'd all be "prophets." There is no proof of the claims, because there is no basis or substance for the claims. If god was proven today to actually exist, I'd be quite skeptical. Why after 5,000-7,000 years all of a sudden god makes a confirmed appearance? I still wouldn't believe. That's why no one has been able to prove the existence of god or Jesus.We tend to want to believe that Moses, Abraham and David, existed, but in actuality, there is no proof of them either. They were literary characters. That's why there are no Egyptian chariot wheels in the Red Sea or any other sea.
*************
jayleew: No, if Jesus is real in one's mind, there are no burdens. That's a little of my point.
*************
M*W: Sure, Jesus can be very real in one's mind, just as Moses and Abraham can, but that's the ONLY place they exist besides the papyri the were written on.
*************
jayleew: There are distinct differences with the Bible and a fiction novel, namely the number of contributing authors who provide witness.
*************
M*W: For a fact, there is no proof of who wrote the bible. The bible stories were myths created from earlier myths. There is nothing original in the bible. The number of authors has nothing to do with anything, and virtually no one named in the bible witnessed anything!
*************
jayleew: I'm sorry you believe that. Honestly, what would it take to believe in Jesus for you? Skepticism is good, ignorance is bad.
*************
M*W: There is absolutely nothing that could make me believe Jesus was an historic person. I'm not in the market to find a savior. I've been there and regret my ignorance at the time. It was all a delusion.
*************
jayleew: We can establish upon a nearly unanimous decision that Mark Twain is a fiction writer. The same cannot be said of John or Matthew.
*************
M*W: Unfortunately, it can. Just because the books were called Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, doesn't mean that's who wrote them.
*************
jayleew: You are confused about Christianity, at least, if you think that it teaches love does not come from within. What do you know of God, what do you know of Christianity? What defines your perception?
*************
M*W: No, I'm not the least bit confused about Christianity. I've studied it all my life practically, and I doubt it's very existence. It's like the emperor's new clothes. He believes he's wearing them and they are regal, but in fact, he is naked and doesn't know it. Christianity only exists in the mind. Yes, there are big churches all over the place, and of course there are televangelists on TV. There are preachers in the pulpit telling you every Sunday that Jesus died for you, blah, blah, blah, but it's all delusion. I'm quite happy to see more and more people leaving Christianity worldwide. I won't live to see it's demise, but I believe Christianity will be a thing of the past in the next 150 years.

BTW, Mark Twain was an atheist.

 

[(Q)]

But all of this is just a little too much thinking. I grow weary of all of these things.

You grow weary of thinking? Then, religion is for you.

No, if Jesus is real in one's mind, there are no burdens.

That's called 'delusion.'

 

[jayleew]

M*W: Believing god loves you is wishful thinking. Only humans and some higher animals can experience the emotion of love. If god was omnipotent, he wouldn't have emotions. But god doesn't exist, so the emotions are emanations from your mind based on what you've experienced. The Moses character did, in fact, think of himself as a messiah, a leader of his people to their salvation. Neither do I believe Moses nor Abraham existed, only their characterizations in allegorical literature. The title of "prophet" means nothing. If that were the case, then we'd all be "prophets." There is no proof of the claims, because there is no basis or substance for the claims. If god was proven today to actually exist, I'd be quite skeptical. Why after 5,000-7,000 years all of a sudden god makes a confirmed appearance? I still wouldn't believe. That's why no one has been able to prove the existence of god or Jesus.We tend to want to believe that Moses, Abraham and David, existed, but in actuality, there is no proof of them either. They were literary characters. That's why there are no Egyptian chariot wheels in the Red Sea or any other sea.
*************

You went from ignorance to arrogance. There are physical formations of coral in the shapes consistent with chariot wheels according to the design of the time period in question. It cannot be denied as there is visual recordings of them just as there are visual recordings of the Titanic.

By the way, Moses did not claim to be a leader. In fact, the character asked the IAM character, "Who am I Lord that I should do these things?" The characters did what they were told, for the most part. They did not claim anything. The IAM TOLD Moses to go to Pharoah and tell Pharoah to let the people go. Moses never once said that he was the leader, nor is the impression given. The IAM was the leader, Moses was the pawn it was always that way.

M*W: For a fact, there is no proof of who wrote the bible. The bible stories were myths created from earlier myths. There is nothing original in the bible. The number of authors has nothing to do with anything, and virtually no one named in the bible witnessed anything!

Just because the Dead Sea Scrolls were found recently, doesn't mean that the myths are the original and the others are not copies.

M*W: There is absolutely nothing that could make me believe Jesus was an historic person. I'm not in the market to find a savior. I've been there and regret my ignorance at the time. It was all a delusion.

How unscientific of you. A bit arrogant too. Just a bit of close-mindedness too. Becareful you do not deceive yourself in your own delusion. At least my mind is open to discussion on the matter.

M*W: Unfortunately, it can. Just because the books were called Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, doesn't mean that's who wrote them.

Rediculously ignorant! Not that it matters to the authenticity, but to establish the difference between Mark Twain and the supposed authors of the Bible, how many people believe the Bible is fiction? How many people believe it is not? How many people believe Mark Twain's writings were fictions? How many people believe they were not?
I stand by the fact that we can establish by a nearly unianimous decision that Mark Twain is a fiction writer and the same cannot be said of the supposed author(s) of the Bible. This does not say that the Bible is accurate, this says that you cannot compare the characters of Mark Twain with the characters of the Bible. If there was equal controversy of Mark Twain, I would say the same for his writings. You are comparing apples to oranges.

M*W: No, I'm not the least bit confused about Christianity. I've studied it all my life practically, and I doubt it's very existence. It's like the emperor's new clothes. He believes he's wearing them and they are regal, but in fact, he is naked and doesn't know it. Christianity only exists in the mind. Yes, there are big churches all over the place, and of course there are televangelists on TV. There are preachers in the pulpit telling you every Sunday that Jesus died for you, blah, blah, blah, but it's all delusion. I'm quite happy to see more and more people leaving Christianity worldwide. I won't live to see it's demise, but I believe Christianity will be a thing of the past in the next 150 years.

BTW, Mark Twain was an atheist.

So decided, so close-minded. You are arrogant to say you know all there is about Christianity and its existence. I would say the same to myself, because I was until a month ago and found out that I do not know it all. What a concept...

 

[jayleew]

But all of this is just a little too much thinking. I grow weary of all of these things.

You grow weary of thinking? Then, religion is for you.

No, if Jesus is real in one's mind, there are no burdens.

That's called 'delusion.'

Better to be deluded and live at peace than to perceive the truth and worry about things so much. It's a matter of opinion that I would rather go to my grave at peace, than to die with unfinished observations or experiments...holding on to the faith that science has explained everything and trusting that the missing holes will be filled and I will not find myself on the other side looking at a being that science could not see and that yet again my world which was flat is now round, but there is nothing I can do about it and regretting my whole existence. And I will weep and gnash my teeth as I am humbled, and anger would well up in me against a creator that did nothing to save me. "It wasn't my fault! It's yours God!" And he turns as tells me, "If I had told you, you would love me not for me, and only because I carry your birthright. Was there not a church on every corner? You put your faith in your own arrogant knowledge, and not me."

But, logic says God doesn't exist! What have you to lose, but to gain a life full of peace, joy, and love....and maybe eternal life in heaven if you're lucky.
It's so hard to believe in God!!! It's impossible!! Science and logic deny the existence of God!

Coward! Open your mind to possiblities and not limit your perception to only what you have observed thus far. That won't get you anywhere. To believe this is all there is, is arrogant. Light bulbs don't get made with such an attitude.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

jayleew: You went from ignorance to arrogance. There are physical formations of coral in the shapes consistent with chariot wheels according to the design of the time period in question. It cannot be denied as there is visual recordings of them just as there are visual recordings of the Titanic.
*************
M*W: Then why the hell don't they bring them up so we can all see them? You are delusional, and you are holding on to someone else's delusion of believing they have seen chariot wheels! If you want to see where chariots have been, go to Avignon, France.
*************
jayleew: By the way, Moses did not claim to be a leader. In fact, the character asked the IAM character, "Who am I Lord that I should do these things?" The characters did what they were told, for the most part. They did not claim anything. The IAM TOLD Moses to go to Pharoah and tell Pharoah to let the people go. Moses never once said that he was the leader, nor is the impression given. The IAM was the leader, Moses was the pawn it was always that way.
*************
M*W: Again, you ignorantly assume that Moses existed. The character of Moses existed, but the man did not. If you read the research done by Egyptian archeologists, even those who believe Moses was an historic personage, you will learn that Moses did, in fact, have a god-complex. He was known as the leader, the maker of laws, the savior of the ancient Apiru in Egypt. These people were no more Israelites than I am or you are. They were Egyptian and the forerunners of the Hebrews. You believe in the Exodus story literally. It never happened according to biblical scholars and archeologists. It never happened. Besides, this is old news. The story of Moses would have him go upon the mountain where the I AM would 'speak' to him via a burning bush that was never consumed. There was no Moses. There was no burning bush. There may have been the so-called mountain, but there was no I AM. That was all literary license. You say I'm ignorant, but you are the one who doesn't think for himself or read anything scientific. You are truly gullible and naive, and you will never be open to the truth.
*************
jayleew: Just because the Dead Sea Scrolls were found recently, doesn't mean that the myths are the original and the others are not copies.
*************
M*W: All religions are copies of copies. The only original deities were the sun, stars, planets, elements, and their movements. Everything aside from that is a copy.
*************
jayleew: How unscientific of you. A bit arrogant too. Just a bit of close-mindedness too. Becareful you do not deceive yourself in your own delusion. At least my mind is open to discussion on the matter.
*************
M*W: Your mind is closed. You will not let anything but the bible in. Religion does not science make. Just because I know the truth, you call me arrogant! You're out of your league on sciforums. Atheists know more about your religion than you do! If you think you can keep up with us, you really are delusional!
*************
jayleew: Rediculously ignorant! Not that it matters to the authenticity, but to establish the difference between Mark Twain and the supposed authors of the Bible, how many people believe the Bible is fiction? How many people believe it is not? How many people believe Mark Twain's writings were fictions? How many people believe they were not? I stand by the fact that we can establish by a nearly unianimous decision that Mark Twain is a fiction writer and the same cannot be said of the supposed author(s) of the Bible. This does not say that the Bible is accurate, this says that you cannot compare the characters of Mark Twain with the characters of the Bible. If there was equal controversy of Mark Twain, I would say the same for his writings. You are comparing apples to oranges.
*************
M*W: I was comparing authors to authors, fiction to fiction.
*************
jayleew: So decided, so close-minded. You are arrogant to say you know all there is about Christianity and its existence. I would say the same to myself, because I was until a month ago and found out that I do not know it all. What a concept...
*************
M*W: You are a liar and delusional. Believe what you want, none of us care. Just stop telling us there are chariot wheels in the Red Sea, and that Moses was real, and Jesus died for mankind, and that god is omniscient. That's all bullshit. You're a weak man who is very needy. If there were a god, he wouldn't make someone like you -- you're an ignorant fool. It's knowing people like you who have been the deciding factor in our journey toward atheism. If you were a true Christian, your church wouldn't allow you to come to sciforums. Why do you stay here? The atheists will never believe anything you say, but you're not even a good example to the Christians here!

"He who is not busy learning is busy lying." ~ Medicine*Woman

 

[antifreeze]

"Because when we think so much and find the truth, we only find more questions."

"We have not succeeded in answering all of your problems. The answers we have found only serve to raise a whole set of new questions. In some ways we feel we are as confused as ever, but we believe we are confused on a higher level and about more important things." - Car Talk. besides, isn't the important thing that we are finding truth?

"Honestly, what would it take to believe in Jesus for you?"
a lobotomy...

what the **** is the point of this thread?

 

[jayleew]

jayleew: You went from ignorance to arrogance. There are physical formations of coral in the shapes consistent with chariot wheels according to the design of the time period in question. It cannot be denied as there is visual recordings of them just as there are visual recordings of the Titanic.
*************
M*W: Then why the hell don't they bring them up so we can all see them? You are delusional, and you are holding on to someone else's delusion of believing they have seen chariot wheels! If you want to see where chariots have been, go to Avignon, France.
*************

Do you know what coral is?

jayleew: By the way, Moses did not claim to be a leader. In fact, the character asked the IAM character, "Who am I Lord that I should do these things?" The characters did what they were told, for the most part. They did not claim anything. The IAM TOLD Moses to go to Pharoah and tell Pharoah to let the people go. Moses never once said that he was the leader, nor is the impression given. The IAM was the leader, Moses was the pawn it was always that way.
*************
M*W: Again, you ignorantly assume that Moses existed. The character of Moses existed, but the man did not. If you read the research done by Egyptian archeologists, even those who believe Moses was an historic personage, you will learn that Moses did, in fact, have a god-complex. He was known as the leader, the maker of laws, the savior of the ancient Apiru in Egypt. These people were no more Israelites than I am or you are. They were Egyptian and the forerunners of the Hebrews. You believe in the Exodus story literally. It never happened according to biblical scholars and archeologists. It never happened. Besides, this is old news. The story of Moses would have him go upon the mountain where the I AM would 'speak' to him via a burning bush that was never consumed. There was no Moses. There was no burning bush. There may have been the so-called mountain, but there was no I AM. That was all literary license. You say I'm ignorant, but you are the one who doesn't think for himself or read anything scientific. You are truly gullible and naive, and you will never be open to the truth.
*************

You didn't read my post thouroughly. For sake of argument, I had assumed that Moses was a fictional character. Assuming Moses is a fictional character, Moses never claimed to be a leader. Read the post again before accusing of anything. I relayed the fictional story as I read it, something that was obvious that you missed.
That is the difference between you and I, I am open to the truth and I do not proclaim to know it for sure, black and white as you see it in arrogance. Is it so hard to say that you don't and will never have all the answers, and you will continue to search for the truth with an open mind to all possibilities?

M*W: All religions are copies of copies. The only original deities were the sun, stars, planets, elements, and their movements. Everything aside from that is a copy.

And I sound delusional? I can at least acknowledge what the sun, stars, and plants, and their movements and I do not call them gods or deities.

*************
M*W: Your mind is closed. You will not let anything but the bible in. Religion does not science make. Just because I know the truth, you call me arrogant! You're out of your league on sciforums. Atheists know more about your religion than you do! If you think you can keep up with us, you really are delusional!

You do not know me. No, I got on sciforums and learned that it was illogical for me to believe in God. Then, I read a book and learned that I was arrogant with me trying to tell you what the truth is.
"I know the truth." is an arrogant statement. I do not know the truth. Do you not understand personal truth is merely a perception of reality? There is ONE truth, but neither you or I know what it is for sure. If anyone knew the ONE truth, we would not be here debating! There is ONE truth, everything else is commentary and I do not know the truth. There are so many people who say, "I know the truth." And so many of those find humility. "It is a fact that the world is flat." they told Columbus. Columbus had evidence otherwise and followed that to a new truth. Don't make the same mistake.

*************
jayleew: Rediculously ignorant! Not that it matters to the authenticity, but to establish the difference between Mark Twain and the supposed authors of the Bible, how many people believe the Bible is fiction? How many people believe it is not? How many people believe Mark Twain's writings were fictions? How many people believe they were not? I stand by the fact that we can establish by a nearly unianimous decision that Mark Twain is a fiction writer and the same cannot be said of the supposed author(s) of the Bible. This does not say that the Bible is accurate, this says that you cannot compare the characters of Mark Twain with the characters of the Bible. If there was equal controversy of Mark Twain, I would say the same for his writings. You are comparing apples to oranges.
*************
M*W: I was comparing authors to authors, fiction to fiction.
*************

Very well, but we do not see people thinking Tom Sawyer was real. There was a time recently where people believed in God without the Bible, you know. The Bible merely reaffirmed what they knew already.

jayleew: So decided, so close-minded. You are arrogant to say you know all there is about Christianity and its existence. I would say the same to myself, because I was until a month ago and found out that I do not know it all. What a concept...

*************
M*W: You are a liar and delusional. Believe what you want, none of us care. Just stop telling us there are chariot wheels in the Red Sea, and that Moses was real, and Jesus died for mankind, and that god is omniscient. That's all bullshit. You're a weak man who is very needy. If there were a god, he wouldn't make someone like you -- you're an ignorant fool. It's knowing people like you who have been the deciding factor in our journey toward atheism. If you were a true Christian, your church wouldn't allow you to come to sciforums. Why do you stay here? The atheists will never believe anything you say, but you're not even a good example to the Christians here!

"He who is not busy learning is busy lying." ~ Medicine*Woman

I never said that Moses was real as a fact, or Jesus, or anything concerning the Bible. I have been merely discussing a book with you, one that you have a few things wrong in. I have serious doubts to God's omniscience, I think Jesus died for all mankind. I have serious doubts about God's existence.

That is my opinion. On the other hand, it is a fact that there are coral formations consistent with chariot wheels in the Red Sea. I cannot dismiss evidence that can be observed, just as I don't dismiss evidence for natural selection. The sea bed is littered with wheel formations. One would be coincidence, two maybe, but they are all over. It is a fact that coral eat wood and retain the shape of what they ate.

Thank you, I am not a Christian. I follow Christ's teachings. Some say that I am a Christian, but I do not like the religion's black and white arrogance. It is not how it was started a couple millenium ago. You have many perceptions of Christians, all of which you project on to me. Why wouldn't a true Christian church allow me to come to sciforums? Any religion who controls its members in such a way is not worth my time. If that is Christianity, I want no part of it.

I am here learning here, so I must not be lying. What have you truly learned? Before you answer that, get past your defensive hurt ego, and search your heart. Then share.

Knowing people like me? You don't know me. You barely listen to me anyway. I've had to constantly point out to you what I am saying, because you have this front on that hears what I'm saying and automatically interprets it as blasphemy according to your perception of existence. Do you doubt your arrogance? Ask yourself if you could be wrong. If the answer is no, then welcome to blind arrogance or ignorance. Or maybe not.

 

[jayleew]

"Because when we think so much and find the truth, we only find more questions."

"We have not succeeded in answering all of your problems. The answers we have found only serve to raise a whole set of new questions. In some ways we feel we are as confused as ever, but we believe we are confused on a higher level and about more important things." - Car Talk. besides, isn't the important thing that we are finding truth?

That is good, tell me when you get there.

"Honestly, what would it take to believe in Jesus for you?"
a lobotomy...

So you are close-minded on the issue. I think maybe if it served a purpose you would, but I don't know you.

what the **** is the point of this thread?

The point is that we are wasting our lives debating the existence of God. We reason so hard with philosophy, that I think we pass a vital clue in arrogance or ignorance. The point of this thread is to encourage people to follow Christ's teachings because it is an easy, less stressful, just, and loving way to live and I invite others to share in its blessings that I have. If it's not for you, that's alright, but I just am here for those who would listen. And also to tell everyone to stop thinking so hard with philosophy and just live. :m:

 

[antifreeze]

"Columbus had evidence otherwise and followed that to a new truth."
he tested his hypothesis, which turned out to be correct...except for the whole westward route to india part. how do you propose to test your hypothesis? shoot yourself? ...

 

[antifreeze]

"The point is that we are wasting our lives debating the existence of God. We reason so hard with philosophy, that I think we pass a vital clue in arrogance or ignorance. The point of this thread is to encourage people to follow Christ's teachings because it is an easy, less stressful, just, and loving way to live and I invite others to share in its blessings that I have. If it's not for you, that's alright, but I just am here for those who would listen. And also to tell everyone to stop thinking so hard with philosophy and just live."
huh? so you suggest that everyone stop questioning the existence of god and take on the blind faith which you feel is so enjoyable? better to just live and let live, not convert.

 

[jayleew]

huh? so you suggest that everyone stop questioning the existence of god and take on the blind faith which you feel is so enjoyable? better to just live and let live, not convert.

Yes and no. Question the existence of God yes, and also believe that he might exist and try him out, and you will be given a reason by God to have faith in time if you check the door every now and then when you hear a knock. My objective is to live according to Christ's teachings, not convert anyone. I leave that up to God.

 

[SnakeLord]

Many people, knowing God, would love him for many reasons (fear and greed are two), but he wants us to love him without any strings.

This isn't generally attested to in the bible where god mentions him wanting us to fear him over one hundred times. You don't even have to go very far into the bible to see that his main goal is for man to fear him. He only spares Abrahams son on the very basis that Abraham fears him, not loves him - and that is just the beginning.

What kind of a 'father', of a 'shepherd', of an all-loving creator has running humanity through fear at the top of his list? Indeed the very concept of christianity is based upon fear.. The whole "believe or burn" concept is nothing other than an indication that fear is at its very roots. It starts off with: "we are all bad people", and ends up with: "unless you apologise you'll burn in an eternal lake of fire".

If that is not there to incite absolute fear then I don't know what is.

There is a vast difference between love and fear, and the biblical god demands the latter more than the former. Your statement is biblically inaccurate.

No, if Jesus is real in one's mind, there are no burdens.

I consider it utter cowardice. Life might be more simple for you, but it is weak and pathetic.

There are distinct differences with the Bible and a fiction novel, namely the number of contributing authors who provide witness.

Wrong.

Did you know there are 4 different filmed versions of War of the Worlds? You'll notice a distinct pattern if you start from Well's novel, watch the first movie, the second movie etc..

Evolution.

A story, like everything else, evolves as time passes. I don't know if you've read the novel but it differs a lot from the recent Spielberg release. However, the Spielberg film is based upon Well's writing.

So let's take a quick look at biblical stories:

As you can see, the story evolves as time passes - just like any other work of fiction - and nor can you really blame them. Stories do not just vanish into nothingness.. far from it infact. Stories are handed down from generation to generation, (and especially then when they would have generally been handed down verbally) - and are retold so many times that the actual original is somewhat lost in a murky cloud of Chinese whispers.

Look at the OT - which is majorly taken from older Sumerian stories - (creation, the flood, moses, abraham etc).

Do you honestly think someone with an ability to write and a desire to do so would not write about the stories he has heard? Is it not also common practice for authors to write from a first person perspective or in such style where you think they actually witnessed the events they speak of?

Do locations, names and other such details not also change to reflect the changes in society?

Let's be honest here for a moment.. Either Mark, Matthew, Luke and John didn't know each other or ever talk to each other, and didn't witness the events together or they're complete bloody imbeciles. Could they agree on times of death? No. Could they agree on what jesus aka god said before he died? No. Could they agree on who was at the tomb? No. Etc etc.. How stupid would 4 people who were all there, all knew each other and all tried writing the same story about the same guy have to be to fudge it up to such an insane degree?

These guys are left with the duty of telling the whole of mankind to come all about god and they can't even agree on the very basics. A big boo on them.. and yet it isn't at all unexpected given that it is a handed down story rewritten several times by several different authors - each with their own views, opinions and creative abilities.

Of course as is always the way, the second version of a story must always be more glamorous than the first, and so on down the line. This accounts for the miraculous additions seen in the bible, War of the World's and any other updated story in existence.

Many details will remain the same though. Those can be considered the story essentials. As an example I can say that if I were to rewrite One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest I would keep the end part where McMurphy gets killed by the red indian with the pillow. It is essential to the story. I have no doubt that the story would not work if McMurphy lived.

Perhaps as a better example we could use either The Last Temptation of Christ or The passion of Christ.

jesus would still die, we'd just add more beatings and so on.

Skepticism is good, ignorance is bad.

Well then, that's bad news for all the tribal jungle people that have never heard of jesus, or indeed the people that came before he did. They are/were to all meaning of the word, 'ignorant' with concerns to anyone named jesus. So, these people are doomed to burn because, in your own words: "ignorance is bad"? What say you?

We can establish upon a nearly unanimous decision that Mark Twain is a fiction writer.

Actually no, we can't. As some people round here might know I'm a very big fan of Twain - and most of his stories are based upon reality. He was a steamboat pilot, (the basis not only for his name but for several of his books including Huckleberry Finn), the slavery/wars the basis for more of his stories and so on.

They were generally based upon the realities of his life and time. That doesn't make the characters real, (although quite often characters are based to some degree on real people - for instance Alice Liddell {Alice in Wonderland}, or Peter Llewlyn Davies {Peter Pan}).. Of course please take into account that just because Alice was based upon a real person does not mean the real Alice ever went down a rabbit hole and had tea with a mad dude or that Peter ever knew a fairy or was chased around by a one handed pirate.

But suffice it to say: If we can establish Twain as a fiction writer, then we can't even go that far with people we have no idea about from two bloody millennia ago. Twain died in 1910, you can't even tell me when Matthew died. You cannot tell me his surname, his real name, his height, weight, education, nothing. For all you know and can tell me, the bloody loch ness monster wrote the bible - and yet here you are thinking you can assign a level of validity to it when you simply, and honestly, don't have the slightest clue. Be a man for once and confess.

 

[fadeaway humper]

Heh. Mylord Snake, I see you remain as demolishing as ever. Don't you ever give up hope?

Must be some kind of professional deformation, endowing you with superhuman patience.

 

[SnakeLord]

Sup dude..

It certainly was a bit more relaxed after the visitor finally stopped visiting But now a few nutballs have taken his place..

Still I don't mind it here.. it's like a fun community of two battling villages. Of course if it came to war our village would win.. We'd have the guns, they'd be begging the clouds for assistance.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

SnakeLord: It's certainly was a bit more relaxed after the visitor finally stopped visiting But now a few nutballs have taken his place..

Still I don't mind it here.. it's like a fun community of two battling villages. Of course if it came to war our village would win.. We'd have the guns, they'd be begging the clouds for assistance.
************8
M*W: Yeah, I've noticed the responses on this forum have dropped significantly since we've acquired more theists.

Lock and load.