There is no life after death (and no hell either)

L

Laser Eyes

Registered Senior Member
Various scriptures in the Bible tell us that our life ends when we die. It is a complete and final end. There is no life after death. There is no immortal soul. And there is no eternal suffering or hell. I know this is not what Judaism or most so-called Christian churches teach but it is what the Bible says. Most supposedly Christian churches just do not teach what the Bible says. They create their own doctrines and over time these doctrines become entrenched teachings.

Let us look first of all at what God told Adam. After commanding Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil God said: "in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Note the consequence of disobedience. Adam would die. God did not say: "If you disobey me your physical body will die but you have an immortal soul that will go on living forever and you will suffer eternal punishment".

Let's move forward now to after Adam has eaten the forbidden fruit. God pronounces sentence on Adam and Eve and finishes with the statment: "For dust you are, and to dust you shall return." Here is a statement from God clearly explaining what death means. Adam would simply cease to exist. There is no mention of an immortal soul or eternal punishment in a fiery place of torment.

Some scriptures expressly deal with the condition of the dead and indicate that far from being a place of suffering, the common grave of mankind is a place of inactivity:

"For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going." - Ecclesiastes 9:10

Another scripture equates the condition of dead humans with dead animals. In life man is superior to animals but in death we are all alike: "For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; ... as one dies, so dies the other ... All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust." - Ecclesiastes 3:19-20

Jesus described death like being asleep. When Jesus learned of Lazarus' death he travelled with his disciples to Lazarus' grave intending to resurrect him. On the way Jesus said to his disciples: "Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up." (John 11:11) If Lazarus had passed on to a life in heaven it would hardly have been the right thing for Jesus to resurrect him back to an imperfect life on earth.

Let us consider one more argument based on logic and common sense, not scripture. Assume for the sake of this argument that God is indeed the loving God that he tells us he is. Even we imperfect humans would not do what some churches accuse God of doing. I'm reminded of many western movies I've seen where the cowboy's horse goes lame and rather than let the horse die of thirst in the desert the cowboy shoots the horse to spare it the torture of a painful death. Even the worst kind of evil gunfighter in these movies will not walk away and let his horse suffer. I thought of this argument a long time ago but coincidentally I saw this happen in a movie I watched recently called High Plains Drifter. Yet most supposedly Christian churches teach (and many people swallow) a story about what would have to be the cruelest act that God could do - create a place of eternal torment and suffering, a place where God would put anyone who rejected him, and this God would look forever on this place and watch humans endure pain and agony. That is not the God of the Bible and it is not the God of this universe.
 
Yeah on the front page:

"All characters in this written work are fictitious and any resemblence to beings living or dead, (playing harp or burning), is purely coincidental."
 
That's because the Hebrews didn't differentiate between death and hell as we do. Death = the grave = sheol = separation from God = hell.

But then Isaiah (53) makes this interesting announcement:

And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living ...
He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death...
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied


As for why God doesn't put the horse out of its misery - the "horse" is life. Putting one person out of his misery is putting all life out of its misery - which will eventually happen. In the meantime, Jesus died for our sufferings so that we can be sure of life after death.
 
Originally posted by Cyperium
God also talks about the second death.
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Yes, but that is part of more recent eschatology - you won't find any explicit mention of it in the Old Testament.
 
The term ‘soul’ as used in the bible does not refer to an immaterial or immortal spirit of some type but simply a person, or self. See this analysis on ‘soul’ in the bible - http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/soul.htm

And the term HELL simply means the grave, or death.
http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/sheol.htm

The bible does not support the concept of hell being a place of eternal torture.

Neither does the bible support the concept of an eternal spirit-form afterlife.

The first death is hell and everyone good or bad will go to hell (the grave).

Everyone is then resurrected physically and judged.

Those who are considered wicked are cast into the lake of fire, the second death, and are permanently destroyed.

Everyone else inherits the Earth which is perfect (Heaven) and without death or pain, i.e. it is a return to Eden.

But –

But like most things Christian there are many interpretations and biblical inconsistencies.

The following article provides an impartial look at some of the issues, of Death, the Afterlife, and the Future. It is long but covers some very useful points of view.

http://www.uncc.edu/jdtabor/future.html
 
You sleep in the wilderness...

There is no light for you to see. You sleep in the dark wilderness. There is no hope. You believe in a savior that never was. You claim salvation, but no one hears. You are lost in eternity. No one can find you. Most of all, any savior you might have believed in. He is lost, too. In the darkness, in the abyss of religion. There is no christ to save you. It was all a myth.
 
Originally posted by Cris
M*W,

Who are you talking to?
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----------
M*W: Myself, Cris. We had a little celebration here last night. Normally, I don't drink alcohol, but I had a little glass of champagne, and I should have never ended up on sciforums. Let this be an example to all of you--drinking alcohol is BAD. Don't do it! Let's just say that instead of wearing a lampshade on my head at the party or dancing on a table, I started slurring my words on sciforums. I do apologize for my bad behavior.
 
A response to Jehova's Witnesses

Cris, what those websites fail to mention are scriptures that do indicate that death doesn't mean annihilation:

Eccles.12: 7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Even that "impartial" website quotes this from Job:

(Job 14:10-12)
But man dies, and is laid low;
man breathes his last, and where is he?
As waters fail from a lake,
and a river wastes away and dries up,
so man lies down and rises not again;
till the heavens are no more he will not awake,
or be aroused out of his sleep.

It's clearly is a conditional state. The website (James Tabor) gives this footnote "The verses that follow (14-15) are sometimes misunderstood as offering some hope of life after death or resurrection from the dead. The context makes clear that the answer to Job's question, "If a man die, shall he live again?" is no. That is precisely Job's point."

But Job does propose that he still has hope of life. He knows death is the only means to break his contract with mortality and separation from God:

13 "If only you would hide me in the grave [sheol]
and conceal me till your anger has passed!
If only you would set me a time
and then remember me!
14 If a man dies, will he live again?
All the days of my hard service
I will wait for my renewal to come.

Even that's not all. Shortly after, Job expresses his hope even more strongly:

Job 19
25 I know that my Redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand upon the earth [or, upon my grave]
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;

And what about blissful unawareness?

Job 26
5 "The dead are in deep anguish,
those beneath the waters and all that live in them.
6 Death [Sheol] is naked before God;
Destruction [Abaddon] lies uncovered.

No, Job was sure of his salvation:

Job 33:28
He redeemed my soul from going down to the pit, [or grave] and I will live to enjoy the light.
 
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so man lies down and rises not again;
till the heavens are no more he will not awake,
or be aroused out of his sleep.
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I hate to butt in, but wouldn't those few sentences go to show that nobody is going to heaven? After all if man will not wake until they are no more, then there's zero chance he'll ever end up there.

Of course, having said all that, it is quite clear that 'heavens' simply refers to the space above us. That is the same as the other mentions of heaven/heavens. In saying, it's quite pertinent to state there is no 'heaven' as the religious masses view it anyway. It is simply a reference to 'space'.

Maybe what you can derive from that passage is this:

Man wont rise again until the heavens are no more....

It's quite feasible to suggest the heavens might never be 'no more'....

In summary: man ain't never rising from the dead.
 
Originally posted by SnakeLord
Man wont rise again until the heavens are no more....

It's quite feasible to suggest the heavens might never be 'no more'....

In summary: man ain't never rising from the dead.
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The universe will collapse eventually, and the sun will burn out eventually, but resurrection is never going to happen by itself.

2 Peter 3
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
 
Firstly I might aswell note that the passage we are talking about isn't exactly what you've made it out to be. You labelled it as "scriptures that do indicate that death doesn't mean annihilation". This is faulty. It doesn't indicate anything of the sort. The guy is asking questions, and from the looks of things is pissed off because trees resprout but humans don't. From analysis the "men will not rise until the heavens are no more.." speech is in the same manner as you would say "That wont happen until pigs fly". It is a "it'll never happen" speech. He even goes on to say, (somehow you missed its inclusion)

Job 14:14 If a man dies, will he live again?

If you read the whole thing you will see it has no bearing within the context you put it.

The universe will collapse eventually, and the sun will burn out eventually
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I guess so... However...

"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.." (matthew)

That's what jesus said in which case it should have happened already.

I think it was you who i had a debate with about this part. You, or the person debating with me, stated that jesus wasn't referring to the lifetimes of the people he was speaking to but to the fig trees. Yes, i found it rather hysterical but for the sake of argument i'll let it ride...

Either way you look at it, (and yes there are very old fig trees around- apparently), the world, the heavens, the sun etc would by now all be gone.

Evidence suggests otherwise.

So, not only have you taken a man's bad mood in the wrong context but we have also ended up with a serious dilemma.
 
Originally posted by SnakeLord
Firstly I might aswell note that the passage we are talking about isn't exactly what you've made it out to be. You labelled it as "scriptures that do indicate that death doesn't mean annihilation". This is faulty. It doesn't indicate anything of the sort. The guy is asking questions, and from the looks of things is pissed off because trees resprout but humans don't. From analysis the "men will not rise until the heavens are no more.." speech is in the same manner as you would say "That wont happen until pigs fly". It is a "it'll never happen" speech. He even goes on to say, (somehow you missed its inclusion)

Job 14:14 If a man dies, will he live again?

If you read the whole thing you will see it has no bearing within the context you put it.
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That might be true, but then v.14 could just as well be a rhethorical question in the same vein.

If you read the rest of Job's answers (as I've indicated in 19, 26 and 33) you see a development. The more Job's friends insist that he will "die like the rest", as a man dishonoured in God's eyes, the more Job becomes adamant that God will give him his renewal - even if is only after death! In ch.14 he wants God to hide him in the grave until all his suffering is past, and "then remember him". Tradition would say Job would be lost forever - his question echoes that - but Job is willing to stake even that on his hope that God will justify him. If it's a genuine question, "If a man dies, will he live again?", it's one Job lets God answer.

I guess so... However...

"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.." (matthew)

That's what jesus said in which case it should have happened already.

I think it was you who i had a debate with about this part. You, or the person debating with me, stated that jesus wasn't referring to the lifetimes of the people he was speaking to but to the fig trees. Yes, i found it rather hysterical but for the sake of argument i'll let it ride...

Either way you look at it, (and yes there are very old fig trees around- apparently), the world, the heavens, the sun etc would by now all be gone.

Evidence suggests otherwise.

So, not only have you taken a man's bad mood in the wrong context but we have also ended up with a serious dilemma.
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Sorry to disappoint you, but there's no dilemma. It wasn't me you had the conversation with - I have never put much faith in fig trees to carry an argument.

If you look at that verse and its context again (Matt.24):

33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door 34"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."

In the first place the word for "generation" is genea, which can also be translated "race", but wasn't understood that way by the author. To be sure, Jesus was referring to the destruction of the temple and the dispersion of the Jews (how would anybody escape Judgment Day by "fleeing to the mountains" (v.16)?). The abomination upon holy ground was the Roman armies encircling Jerusalem, of which Josephus wrote in Book II of his Wars (chapter 19, and footnote 30).

Before to the destruction of "those days", "these things" will happen first. These things are only "the beginning of birth pains" (v.8).

So in answer to your dilemma: that generation did live to see those things (the death and ascension of Christ, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, and the flight from Judea) - but the generation of men are still living, and we know it is in the end times because we have indeed seen the fig tree bud.
 
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