Theologic Revisionism : a Challenge to Religious and Mythologic Studies

Ghassan Kanafani

Mujahid
Registered Senior Member
Just as in any field of research , when attempting to decipher theological scriptures the scholar should position himself as objectively as possible and take in into consideration the various factors on which the semantical result (and intention) of the writers depends . Unfortunatly this is being done insufficient , if at all , resulting in a method of interpertation that is centric to one's own bias . This bias as far as relevant to theology can easily be traced if we would seek guidance in one of our modern Gods The Dictionary .

Theism : Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world .

Questionable is this defintion , as an assumption is made for the belief in "personal , creating and ruling" Gods to be of a superior value ("especially" implies more certainty of theist presence) . What the dictionary-God does is fall for the logical fallacy of appeal to popularity . This attempted manipulation has it's obvious roots in the popular idea of Theos in the time of it's import in the dictionary . It is our first evidence of a European-Christian mind-frame at basis . After filtering this first obstacle to correct understanding we are left with :

Theism = Belief in the existence of a God or Gods .

Here 2 issues are stated :

1) Belief
2) Existence of God/Gods

Belief

The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another

Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something .

Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.


What oftenly brings confusement is the implication of "invalidity/error" of the issue believed in , as if it were not believed in after rational consideration and understanding , which would translate it into "acknowledgement" . The second definition describes this best , and the other 2 do not implicate otherwise . Logically is to understand both are an option , however historically it has always been the "not proved" assumption that has been applied to research and interpertation of Theologic concepts . This emphasized the meaning given to the concept of understanding (Logic) which is God (Theos) , while more correct would have been in particular for the Theologic definition to tend toward "belief" as "acknowledgement" instead of something like "hope to be truth" . It emphasized the wrongly assumed defintion through defining God as irrational itself :

God

*a) A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.

*b)The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.

*A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.

*An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.

*A very handsome man.

*A powerful ruler or despot.


Clearly only the last 2 definitions are the only one that point logically toward physical reality , the rest cannot be interpreted as such (while it is being implied) without being irrational thus more likely to be "believed" in instead of acknowledged . Aside of the idolization as in money , all of the "beings" implied to be God and then translated into the subject of study within Theology , only to be reproduced as some global thing called theism , is an insult to every non-European non-Christian philosophies and ways of life . Unfortunatly it is exactly these defintions that have been set premis within religious and historical studies , implications of "beings" as in living entity's , combined with "adoration or worship" as if indeed we are speaking of living powerfull beings . From this perspective all religious scriptures from over the entire world , monotheistic and polytheistic , religious and mythological , have been interpreted .

Important is to understand the exact context of Christian import on European Civilization , as it was with the Greeks and Romans where this term got its Christian meaning .

[Middle English theologie, from Old French, from Latin theologia, from Greek theologi : theo-, theo- + -logi, -logy.]

The question is how intellectually fragile were those Greeks and Romans , in order to adapt such a simplistic idea of monotheism in trade for their own polytheism , a research in the area of pre-Christian gnosticism would be necesarry to have complete certainty of the development of the semantical realities in question . My guess is that Hellenism made the Greeks mentally ripe for Christianity , while the Romans pretty much had a mind empty enough since their beginning of days . A mythologic revisioning does not necesarry include them because of this . Ofcourse there are various options for latter change in semantics , for instance in relation to the Dark Ages .

More clear however is that the premisses within defintions do have it's base in a European-Christian mindframe while the scriptures to be studied are intended otherwise , but the problems we encounter extend this bias . There are various factors that are relevant in order to understand what the intentional meaning ancient scriptures have , for instance metaphorical or poetical elements or even overal identities of texts .

Revisionism is desirable , especially when we have arrived in an age where complete philosophies are thrown away based assumptions and prejudice . This forum proves no different . A necesarry point is to treat the writers and original intepreters of these scriptures as intelligent and rational creatures instead of delusionary worshippers of the unexplainable .
 
A necesarry point is to treat the writers and original intepreters of these scriptures as intelligent and rational creatures instead of delusionary worshippers of the unexplainable .

How is that possible considering that the interpreters and original writers were worshipping imaginary gods?

Unfortunatly this is being done insufficient , if at all , resulting in a method of interpertation that is centric to one's own bias .

Your entire post follows your own bias. That’s why religion is a personal thing as different to each person as the nose on his or her face. And that is why one can interpret religion any way they want and it will still have meaning to them.

One cannot interpret another’s imagination the same as one can interpret something that is real.
 
Originally posted by (Q)
How is that possible considering that the interpreters and original writers were worshipping imaginary gods?
And how are you proving me that they were worshipping imaginary Gods ? I have pointed out that it is bias and inconsistent with the metaphorical and poetical nature of the scriptures .

You either argue that or point me why your bias semantics are the one to be followed . Why does the world subject to Euro-Christian theology as authoritarian ?
Your entire post follows your own bias.
As long as my bias has logical advantage and offers potential alternative it is a challenge to the main-stream bias .

And it's rather interesting that exclusion of certain ideas can be considered bias . Hey Im not Jewish either , perhap's thats just non-Jewish bias ?
That’s why religion is a personal thing as different to each person as the nose on his or her face.
True , anything in this sense can be considered a personal thing , the difference is reason . With reason we can objectivate within our human boundries . Clearly the conventional positions are not reasonable , that alone gives it enough reason to look at it once more .
And that is why one can interpret religion any way they want and it will still have meaning to them.
The same can be said for anything else , yet in mathematics we don't consider it sufficient when 1+1 equals 3 to this person .
One cannot interpret another’s imagination the same as one can interpret something that is real.
You define it as imagination based on a semantical bases that is being questioned here . You have adopted the European-Christian idea of Theism and have labeled it as imaginary , which I agree with . But when you apply these conclusions , derrived from an European-Christian bias , on non-European-Christian concepts you are measuring weight in miles .
 
(Q) like Calvin?

How is that possible considering that the interpreters and original writers were worshipping imaginary gods?
Stop casting the world in your own image.
 
Revision and Revival

jpegview


Ra Un Nefer Amen Shekhem Ur Shekhem (King of Kings) governs the Ashanti tribe in the Agogo province of Ghana, West Africa.

But most of all , writer of the Metu Neter Vol. 1: The Great Oracle of Tehuti and the Egyptian System of Spiritual Cultivation &

Vol. 2: Anuk Ausar, The Kamitic Initiation System

Reader-comments on Vol 1 :

Cosmologics/Cosmogony/Mandala. The Tree Of Life as an image sums up thousands of years of cross-disciplinary research by the Priesthood of Kamit. Like any subject, God was metaphorically broken into component parts and specialists in particular areas developed to study these aspects. It is scientific in its approach to God/religion. It's not 'faith' based or dogma. The same way in mathematics that you follow a set of instructions and get reproducible results is the same way that the Kamitic religion was made.

This book details part of the Kamitic system for understanding God and creation, understanding that eventually each individual person must have direct experience of God without intervening authorities.


Reader-comments on Vol 2 :

A'aferti Atum-Re teaches in his books that the pyramid is an antenna that magnifies human energy fields. The Great Pyramid generates a double vortex, which is called Standing Columnar Wave (SCW). Alchemist used the Caduceus Coil to generate energy. Standing Column Wave energy patterns make up the energy fields that surround all living things. It also makes up the energy pattern that surrounds the Earth. The Pyramid refocuses light into its sub-atomic particles called Tachyon energy. Tachyon energy is the "glue" of the universe. It is a bond between the physical and the spiritual worlds. Initiates learned how to harness this energy and could advance to the higher planes. This is how Djoser and Imhotep became Neteru and eventually became part of the Igigi (24 Elders). Yashua, an Essene high priest, learned of the Egypian Mysteries and elevated higher than any man...

Ra Un Nefer Amen , founder of the Ausar Auset Society , has revised Kemetic (Ancient-Egyptian) polytheism and translated it into supposed mind-stimulating techniques . His books offer an alternative on the western categorization and explenation of Egyptian polytheism . Perhaps he is an Afro-centric , but at least that's were Kemet was located ;)

We have had a complete false presentation of these peoples in physical form , could the same European Egyptologists have not been wrong about their spiritual system as well ?
 
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I have pointed out that it is bias and inconsistent with the metaphorical and poetical nature of the scriptures .

Circular reasoning – the scriptures were a result of their bias, not the other way round.

Why does the world subject to Euro-Christian theology as authoritarian ?

I don’t think the world is subject to their theology especially if one thinks it is their theology that is the result of religious definition.

As long as my bias has logical advantage and offers potential alternative it is a challenge to the main-stream bias .

It has as equal an advantage as any other religious bias however it is unlikely to be logical.

Hey Im not Jewish either , perhap's thats just non-Jewish bias ?

More like pro-Muslim bias.

True , anything in this sense can be considered a personal thing , the difference is reason .

Not everything, only that which has not been shown to exist.

With reason we can objectivate within our human boundries .

We can but only with that which exists within human boundaries.

The same can be said for anything else , yet in mathematics we don't consider it sufficient when 1+1 equals 3 to this person .

I don’t think it possible to compare that which exists with that which has not been shown to exist, so no, the same cannot be said for everything.

You have adopted the European-Christian idea of Theism and have labeled it as imaginary , which I agree with .

I have adopted no such thing. Gods of any kind, including Allah, are from the imagination. Muslims, like any other person of faith, cannot substantiate their gods’ existence. It is only their faith that keeps their gods alive.

But when you apply these conclusions , derrived from an European-Christian bias , on non-European-Christian concepts you are measuring weight in miles .

How so? The concept of gods is universal as is the concept of religion. For some reason, you are vehemently against these concepts as directed towards Islam. That is your own personal bias, which ultimately provides us the evidence in favor of what you originally discount.
 
Originally posted by (Q)
Circular reasoning – the scriptures were a result of their bias, not the other way round.
Im not talking about the scriptures I am talking about euro-christian semantics on a non-euro christian practice .
I don’t think the world is subject to their theology especially if one thinks it is their theology that is the result of religious definition.
Your theology , it is the same as theirs but contra instead of pro . The semantical definitions are based on either pro or contra of this theological reasoning . The problem is that are not subject to this reasoning .
It has as equal an advantage as any other religious bias however it is unlikely to be logical.
I have no religious bias , my bias is personal to me and as such I have mentioned it . Following I have questioned it as a bias since instead of appointing a distinct culture of bias it denies one .
More like pro-Muslim bias.
How the hell is this pro-Muslim , and how the hell is my bias pro-Muslim ? If it is pro-Muslim , then why do I point out Kamitic revisionism ? Why do I question Greek mythological reality ? How is this pro-Muslim , when Muslims will never agree as majority of their perspective is in the line of the Euro-Christian mindframe , as far as Theology is concerned . Please explain your accusations .
Not everything, only that which has not been shown to exist.
You have to define it first before you can show it to exist . Your definition is obviously subject of revisionism , the arguments to do such have been given .
We can but only with that which exists within human boundaries.
And nobody claimed otherwise .
I don’t think it possible to compare that which exists with that which has not been shown to exist, so no, the same cannot be said for everything.
Define first then show not to exist . Your defintion is questioned here , once more . Thats the entire point of this thread , have you not payed any attention ?
I have adopted no such thing. Gods of any kind, including Allah, are from the imagination. Muslims, like any other person of faith, cannot substantiate their gods’ existence. It is only their faith that keeps their gods alive.
yes you have , they imagine it and you deny it . Me , on the other hand , argues the relevance of all of your Gods as all of you pro-God and anti-God envision it , for it may not have anything to do with that what the writers have intended with it .
How so? The concept of gods is universal as is the concept of religion. For some reason, you are vehemently against these concepts as directed towards Islam. That is your own personal bias, which ultimately provides us the evidence in favor of what you originally discount.
I have an issue with these concepts directed or defining any non-Euro-Christian way of thinking . Both concepts have been created based on the Euro-Christian mindfime , not considering any options that other peoples who are not or have not been Euro-Christians may have in their understanding of their own concepts .

I am not arguing Islam here , I am arguing your defintions of that what isnt yours .

We must realize that there are different patterns of thinking and cultural expression that enrich the planet

I hope you understood me better this time , because your reply was rather dissapointing .
 
I hope you understood me better this time , because your reply was rather dissapointing .

Yes, I did understand you the first time. The reason you think my reply was disappointing is the fact that you are under the impression that your belief in a god is not the same as someone else’s belief in gods.

Although there are slight variations of this theme throughout the different religions, it is still the same thing, a belief in a god.

Why can’t you get that through your thick skull?

We must realize that there are different patterns of thinking and cultural expression that enrich the planet

Sentimental hogwash! A rose is a rose…

I am not arguing Islam here , I am arguing your defintions of that what isnt yours .

Yes, I know, we’ve been down this road before. You think that Islam is void of the same definitions prescribed for other religions. It is not.

Islam is a religion with a core belief in a god, the same as other religions with a core belief in a god. This person prays to their god, you pray to yours – this person claims their god to be the one and only creator of the universe, you claim Allah is the one and only god and creator. NO differences.

There is little reason to comment on the rest of your post until you get over this personal bias.
 
Perhaps you should not continue to comment on this thread at all since you obviously have not the capability to understand what this thread is about , or that you are it's perfect reflection .

I am tired of you telling me what I believe in , and I am tired of you not getting the fact that it is semantics at question here and not your imagination of all those Gods you deny or that others on your level believe in .

Sentimental hogwash! A rose is a rose…

Yea right simpleton , holy shit you have to be joking right ? Tell me , do you even speak a language besides English ?

Yes, I know, we’ve been down this road before. You think that Islam is void of the same definitions prescribed for other religions. It is not.

This has not to do with Islam this has to do with every non-European-Christian Theology . I am questioning the fact that you are prescribing Euro-Christian definitions to non-Euro-Christian things .

Islam is a religion with a core belief in a god, the same as other religions with a core belief in a god. This person prays to their god, you pray to yours – this person claims their god to be the one and only creator of the universe, you claim Allah is the one and only god and creator. NO differences.

Do you even understand what the term revisionism means ? Am I supposed to be the "you" in your never-ending pool of ignorance ?

Im tired of this level of debate , so please stop bothering mne with it . Listen to Tiassa and get it for once .
 
As usual, your threads and posts quickly deteroriate into ad hominem attacks simply because you have nothing else to say or cannot further debate a subject.

The only level of debate you are interested in is that in which everyone nods agreeably with your pinhole worldview.

This has not to do with Islam this has to do with every non-European-Christian Theology . I am questioning the fact that you are prescribing Euro-Christian definitions to non-Euro-Christian things .

I am not European nor am I Christian and those defintions are simply definitions describing terminologies.

It is YOUR biased opinion that those definitions cannot be prescribed to Islam, and that is where you are wrong.

Listen to Tiassa and get it for once .

I see no reason to take the advice of an armchair quarterback.
 
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Originally posted by (Q)
It is YOUR biased opinion that those definitions cannot be prescribed to Islam, and that is where you are wrong.
Can they be perscribed to the Kamitic Pert Em Heru ? What you fail to understand is that discussion is not about Islam but about defining non-European-Christian phenomena by European-Christian standards .
The only level of debate you are interested in is that in which everyone nods agreeably with your pinhole worldview.
Obviously I am expanding world-view here while you are keeping it tight into your Euro-Christian semantics .
I am not European nor am I Christian and those defintions are simply definitions describing terminologies.
Those defintions you used have been created within European-Christian context and perspective , they describe European-Christian terms . I do not care where you are from or what your religion is .

Why do you not answer my question and tell me how many languages you are capable of speaking ? It would give at least an optional explenations of your smallmindedness .
I see no reason to take the advice of an armchair quarterback.
Whatever you wish to call him , he is several times more intelligent than you are , you only better yourself if you would take his advice and try to understand that your defintions & terminology is not global but bias .
 
Just as in any field of research , when attempting to decipher theological scriptures the scholar should position himself as objectively as possible

This cannot be done.
We all have a point of view, a perspective, a frame of reference that, if not cultural, is at least biological.
 
It cannot be done absolutely however one can do so a little bit more than another , my point is to do so as much as possibly can be done within our biological borders as a human being . Unfortunatly in regard to this subject it seems that peoples do it as little as they possibly can , improvement is nowhere near impossible .
 
Semantics is always an issue not one that is limited to a western perspective. While this is most evident in cross-cultural examinations it is not confined to such occurrences. Linguistic forms inherently contain a world-view, a perspective or perspectives that are limiting. This perspective and it's embodiment in language is under constant change. From culture to culture and era to era, it is never the same. Thus even a single language may present a multitude of perspectives in greater or lesser agreement. Modern English (or any other language) is fundamentally different in perspective today than even 500 years ago.

Language is an imperfect tool. It is an attempt to codify raw experience into a communicable form. Yet experience is of a far more fine and subtle nature than all languages combined can ever exhibit. Indeed this realization lies at the very core of mysticism, poetry, and art. The first two attempt to communicate experience through manipulating these imperfections, by making use of word tensions, symbolic confusion, and cross reference; while art attempts to convey experience by creating a related experience.

Indeed, as important as these considerations are their impact is truly astounding when one considers that human thought is most often embodied in linguistic form. Linguistic thought is, in its very nature, imperfect and limited falling far short of experience itself. Again we find mysticism as well as meditation and other transcendent practices that attempt to overcome this limitation. Here we find thought without language, raw experience, and the manipulation of the foibles of symbolic references to convey experience.

In the end what we have is our own immediate subjective experience. All else is but symbolic models we build in our heads.

~Raithere
 
I agree with Raithere that the issue of semantics not restricted to western perspective. Its more of a handicap of the language to closely express the subjective experiences.

But semantics make difference between religions that have basically same understandings. The monistic view of Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism that the supreme being/State (though not a personal God) indwells in everyone/everything starts resembling pantheism when the supreme being/state is termed as GOD.

Spiritual experiences are common world over and semantics put a veil over them. The Sufi view of Allah amazingly resembles Hindu vedantic view of Brahman (not the deity Brahmma). That is to say in the words of Hazrat Ali (Son-in-law of the Prophet), poineer of Sufi school of thought, "We are all waves in the One Ocean that is Allah". It is note worthy to point that Ali was the 4th caliph, Scholar-Warrior and said to be 'the gate of Prophet's knowledge' by the Prophet himself. Deserves another thread to discuss about this great man, i think. No wonder Sufism was/is a great success in Indian sub-coninent. Yet Asia stands apparently in contrast of the Abrahamic and Eastern religions. Due to semantics to some extent. If at all semantics were put at rest for sometime there would be more understanding among the religions, IMO.

An interesting comparision :

2Ta.JPG


- http://occardinal.otterbein.edu/dept/RELG/NWRIO2a.htm
 
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Originally posted by everneo
But semantics make difference between religions that have basically same understandings. The monistic view of Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism that the supreme being/State (though not a personal God) indwells in everyone/everything starts resembling pantheism when the supreme being/state is termed as GOD.

If at all semantics were put at rest for sometime there would be more understanding among the religions, IMO.

An excellent post! Thanks!
 
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