Theist, are you up for a challenge. Let’s compare hells.

Greatest I am

Greatest I am

Valued Senior Member
Theist, are you up for a challenge. Let’s compare hells.

I think that it would be better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever.
Only a sick mind would conceive of such a situation and place or wish it upon anyone. That is why God would not create such a place as hell because then, heaven would be hell. If those in heaven did not go insane then they could not have once been human or good.

Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

To think that God would overcome evil with an evil place like hell and ignore the above is quite droll.

In my theology there is what we would call heaven, but there is no hell.
A good analogy for how the system I know works, is that as the soul makes it's way through the doors of heaven, there is a cleansing action or process that is self imposed in thinking. By the time full entry to the cosmic consciousness or Godhead is gained, there is no evil left and no reason to send anyone anywhere but heaven.

This, strangely enough, is even Biblical if you read scripture as I do.
This quote shows that Bible God is a universalist God even as many theists make him a God of exclusion instead of inclusion.
That would make this quote true.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The theists I have spoken with on this issue do not seem to like the way my Godhead does things. They want to see sinners like Hitler for an example, suffer long and hard for his sins and crimes. The policy, and I do not think the Godhead has a choice in this, is that there is no need to punish as the sinner is rehabilitated or repents upon death and entry into heaven and no other punishment is required.

Even Bible God, could not come up with a better or more moral system than what my Godhead uses.

I challenge any theist to prove that statement wrong by showing a better and more moral system where God does not lose any souls. Anything less would not befits an omnipotent God. What exactly that leaves for a Satan type of character, I do not know.

Regards
DL
 
 
Greatest I am said:
I challenge any theist to prove that statement wrong by showing a better and more moral system where God does not lose any souls. Anything less would not befits an omnipotent God. What exactly that leaves for a Satan type of character, I do not know.

Regards
DL
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easy
hell is not eternal, since its merely an aspect of the material creation (ie deals with conditioned living entities)
 
lightgigantic said:
easy
hell is not eternal, since its merely an aspect of the material creation (ie deals with conditioned living entities)
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Meaning hell is here on earth. Right?

Use English and say something understandable without my having to guess.

You are saying we all go to heaven upon death. Right?

Regards
DL
 
Greatest I am said:
Meaning hell is here on earth. Right?
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no
meaning we live in gradated universe (earth, amongst others, is actually categorized as being situated in the middle of things)

Use English and say something understandable without my having to guess.

You are saying we all go to heaven upon death. Right?

Regards
DL
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all I said was that hell is pertinent to conditioned life, so if you want to say that hell is eternal, you are also saying that conditioned life is eternal ...
 
greatest,

what you're suggesting does not take into account an individual's desires.
 
Greatest I am said:
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Click to expand...

God doesn't want anyone to perish. Cool. But how in the world can you interpret this to mean that no-one actually will? Verses like this require a context that is clearly established throughout the rest of the Bible.

Even Bible God, could not come up with a better or more moral system than what my Godhead uses.
Click to expand...

Perhaps that is true since the question of what is and isn't truly moral is highly debatable.

I challenge any theist to prove that statement wrong by showing a better and more moral system where God does not lose any souls. Anything less would not befits an omnipotent God. What exactly that leaves for a Satan type of character, I do not know.
Click to expand...

CS Lewis proposed the idea that the doors of Hell are locked from the inside. This actually makes a whole lot more sense considering the fact that it is only the person who bitterly rejects God that can not be saved. Additionally, free will demands that people be free not to choose to be with God if that's what they want. Are you saying that we are cleansed of free will while we are waiting outside the pearly gates as well?

I'm sure you'll say, as you have already implied in this thread, that no-one would choose not to be with God if they knew that he was in fact real. But the Bible itself talks about the fact that some people will do just that. It is, after all, the only unforgivable sin. Unforgivable not because God's capacity for forgiveness has limits, but because forgiveness doesn't work the way it's supposed to if it is outright rejected.

You're not going to find anyone suffering eternally in hell who wants God forgiveness. Do you really think that God would ignore prayers of genuine repentance, even if they were coming from people condemned to hell? Of course he wouldn't. It wouldn't be consistent with what his nature. So it leaves us with two possibilities. Either hell will only ever be populated with people who have bitterly rejected God, or he'll still respond to genuine repentance even if you do end up there.

For that to make sense though we need to deal with the obvious problem. It's called eternal damnation isn't it? Well, what does eternal really mean? Consider the Crucifixion. Jesus, who had never sinned, sacrificed himself so everyone else's sins could be wiped away. But what has always troubled many people about this concept is that it wasn't a real sacrifice because he knew he was going to rise again. I mean, I'd be much more likely to jump in front of a bus to save someone else's life if I knew that I was going to rise from the dead a few days later. Wouldn't you be? And here we have this guy who has the opportunity to save the entire human race knowing that his death isn't going to be permanent. So where's the sacrifice? The pre-crucifixion torture, sure. The crucifixion itself, sure. Horrific agonizing stuff. But he's still going to rise again. Don't we need a much more significant sacrifice than a bit of pain and inconvenience to make this whole thing powerful enough to completely wipe out all of the sin in the entire world throughout the fullness of time? I'd say so. The missing piece of the puzzle is this. Jesus suffered in hell for eternity after he died. After all, day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day to God. Time is like a watch in the night. How long is eternity? It's a meaningless question. The point is that for the sacrifice to be powerful enough to achieve what needed to be achieved, Jesus had to suffer the full consequence of sin himself, which included damnation. If he suffered any less than any of us would suffer as a result of Gods' punishment, it wouldn't have been the sacrifice that it needed to be.

If you don't like that idea, which is fine, how about this one. The book of revelation talks about a bunch of people who are going to plead with God on the day of judgment by pointing out that they had performed many deeds in his name. God responds by stating that they are evildoers and that he never knew them. It's pretty clear to me that the people referenced here are those who may claim to be of God, but who were in fact using religion to serve there own selfish purposes. We all know that such people are everywhere. But the important point here is rather than being honest with themselves and with God, they remained unrepentant. I mean seriously, put yourself in the situation. The end has come. You're face to face with God. Even if you had your doubts before you know he's real now. You may not be a truly evil person, but you know you've done a bunch of terrible things in your life. What are you going to do? I'd guess that most people would humble themselves, get down on their knees, be truly sorry and beg for forgiveness. But instead of doing that, these people stubbornly argued their case. What kind of idiot does that? Someone who is willing to effectively reject God while standing right in front of him, that's who.

Finally, you have to realize that even the most devout and genuine follower of God is not going to be free of sin. Every single person is going to have something to account for. Sin is sin is sin in Gods' eyes. But what if the end comes at the exact moment that one of his most devout and genuine followers is in the middle of an essentially selfish act? Surely they are not automatically condemned just because of bad timing? No. It wouldn't make any sense. The only thing that does make sense is that it's not a tally of all your bad and good deeds that is going to save or condemn you when you're standing before God. It's the attitude that you adopt when you find yourself staring him right in the face. If you're the kind of person who would be genuinely repentant, you'll be saved. If on the other hand your the kind of person who would try to reason your way out of it, or remain bitterly unrepentant, then you wont be. Like I said earlier, the only people who will end up in hell are the people who chose to be there.

Before I finish up this already lengthy post I feel that I need to point out that I'm not a Christian, nor do I put the teachings of the Bible into practice on a daily basis. There's some wisdom there for sure, but I'm actually agnostic. And when I say agnostic I mean that I'm not even certain that there is a god of any kind. But I do nevertheless find considerations such and the ones discussed here intriguing because at one point in my life I studied the Bible very extensively. Think of this paragraph as a disclaimer. I'm here for intellectual reasons, so please don't respond to me as if I have a religious agenda to push. I don't.
 
Greatest I am said:
Individuals always desire what is best for them.
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i'll have to agree with lori on this one..

ppl think they know what is best for them,what we desire is not always best for us..

as far as hell,we create our own hell, if heaven is supposed to be about the ideal state of being,then hell is about <what is opposite of ideal?>..
what is it that causes you the most distress?

and your assumptions of hell:
to spend eternity watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever.
Click to expand...
not only assumes we can see them suffering, it also assumes a generic hell (one size fits all)

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
meaning we live in gradated universe (earth, amongst others, is actually categorized as being situated in the middle of things)
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reincarnation? from a lower life form to a higher life form?
 
Rav said:
Additionally, free will demands that people be free not to choose to be with God if that's what they want.
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i don't think that negates any access to heaven, i know of several non-believers who would pry get in..its like you say, there is an accounting at the gates,our final choice so to speak,

Unforgivable not because God's capacity for forgiveness has limits, but because forgiveness doesn't work the way it's supposed to if it is outright rejected.
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one has to forgive oneself before they can accept forgiveness from others..

It's pretty clear to me that the people referenced here are those who may claim to be of God, but who were in fact using religion to serve there own selfish purposes.
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those are the ones atheist refer to when they bitch about religion..

the only people who will end up in hell are the people who chose to be there.
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well written post,:bravo:
 
Rav said:
God doesn't want anyone to perish. Cool. But how in the world can you interpret this to mean that no-one actually will? Verses like this require a context that is clearly established throughout the rest of the Bible.
Click to expand...

Does the Bible not clearly say that god has a pocket full of miracles?
With those, would God deny himself anything that he wanted?

Perhaps that is true since the question of what is and isn't truly moral is highly debatable.



CS Lewis proposed the idea that the doors of Hell are locked from the inside. This actually makes a whole lot more sense considering the fact that it is only the person who bitterly rejects God that can not be saved. Additionally, free will demands that people be free not to choose to be with God if that's what they want. Are you saying that we are cleansed of free will while we are waiting outside the pearly gates as well?
Click to expand...

That is correct. No choice. We and it are a part of nature and cannot help being what we are.
Can a tadpole choose not to become a frog. No.

I'm sure you'll say, as you have already implied in this thread, that no-one would choose not to be with God if they knew that he was in fact real. But the Bible itself talks about the fact that some people will do just that. It is, after all, the only unforgivable sin. Unforgivable not because God's capacity for forgiveness has limits, but because forgiveness doesn't work the way it's supposed to if it is outright rejected.
Click to expand...

You know exactly how God works do you?

If you forgive someone something, is the forgiveness void because it is rejected? Have you somehow retracted your forgiveness or is it always out there to be accepted? If the one you forgave decided later and elsewhere unbeknownst to you to accept it, is it no longer there? Forgiveness given is never taken back and in a sense, cannot be rejected.

You're not going to find anyone suffering eternally in hell who wants God forgiveness. Do you really think that God would ignore prayers of genuine repentance, even if they were coming from people condemned to hell? Of course he wouldn't. It wouldn't be consistent with what his nature. So it leaves us with two possibilities. Either hell will only ever be populated with people who have bitterly rejected God, or he'll still respond to genuine repentance even if you do end up there.
Click to expand...

Perhaps, but that is not biblical.

For that to make sense though we need to deal with the obvious problem. It's called eternal damnation isn't it? Well, what does eternal really mean? Consider the Crucifixion. Jesus, who had never sinned, sacrificed himself so everyone else's sins could be wiped away. But what has always troubled many people about this concept is that it wasn't a real sacrifice because he knew he was going to rise again. I mean, I'd be much more likely to jump in front of a bus to save someone else's life if I knew that I was going to rise from the dead a few days later. Wouldn't you be? And here we have this guy who has the opportunity to save the entire human race knowing that his death isn't going to be permanent. So where's the sacrifice? The pre-crucifixion torture, sure. The crucifixion itself, sure. Horrific agonizing stuff. But he's still going to rise again. Don't we need a much more significant sacrifice than a bit of pain and inconvenience to make this whole thing powerful enough to completely wipe out all of the sin in the entire world throughout the fullness of time? I'd say so. The missing piece of the puzzle is this. Jesus suffered in hell for eternity after he died. After all, day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like a day to God. Time is like a watch in the night. How long is eternity? It's a meaningless question. The point is that for the sacrifice to be powerful enough to achieve what needed to be achieved, Jesus had to suffer the full consequence of sin himself, which included damnation. If he suffered any less than any of us would suffer as a result of Gods' punishment, it wouldn't have been the sacrifice that it needed to be.
Click to expand...

I agree. The sacrifice is a sham.

If you don't like that idea, which is fine, how about this one. The book of revelation talks about a bunch of people who are going to plead with God on the day of judgment by pointing out that they had performed many deeds in his name. God responds by stating that they are evildoers and that he never knew them. It's pretty clear to me that the people referenced here are those who may claim to be of God, but who were in fact using religion to serve there own selfish purposes. We all know that such people are everywhere. But the important point here is rather than being honest with themselves and with God, they remained unrepentant. I mean seriously, put yourself in the situation. The end has come. You're face to face with God. Even if you had your doubts before you know he's real now. You may not be a truly evil person, but you know you've done a bunch of terrible things in your life. What are you going to do? I'd guess that most people would humble themselves, get down on their knees, be truly sorry and beg for forgiveness. But instead of doing that, these people stubbornly argued their case. What kind of idiot does that? Someone who is willing to effectively reject God while standing right in front of him, that's who.
Click to expand...

I do not disagree but would only point out that it is to the victim of sin to forgive it. Not a God who cannot be sinned against. He is not here to be victimized.

Finally, you have to realize that even the most devout and genuine follower of God is not going to be free of sin. Every single person is going to have something to account for. Sin is sin is sin in Gods' eyes. But what if the end comes at the exact moment that one of his most devout and genuine followers is in the middle of an essentially selfish act? Surely they are not automatically condemned just because of bad timing? No. It wouldn't make any sense. The only thing that does make sense is that it's not a tally of all your bad and good deeds that is going to save or condemn you when you're standing before God. It's the attitude that you adopt when you find yourself staring him right in the face. If you're the kind of person who would be genuinely repentant, you'll be saved. If on the other hand your the kind of person who would try to reason your way out of it, or remain bitterly unrepentant, then you wont be. Like I said earlier, the only people who will end up in hell are the people who chose to be there.

Before I finish up this already lengthy post I feel that I need to point out that I'm not a Christian, nor do I put the teachings of the Bible into practice on a daily basis. There's some wisdom there for sure, but I'm actually agnostic. And when I say agnostic I mean that I'm not even certain that there is a god of any kind. But I do nevertheless find considerations such and the ones discussed here intriguing because at one point in my life I studied the Bible very extensively. Think of this paragraph as a disclaimer. I'm here for intellectual reasons, so please don't respond to me as if I have a religious agenda to push. I don't.
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Good.

That would mean that your morals are likely better than what theists have.

Many of those think genocide is moral because God used it.

Regards
DL
 
NMSquirrel said:
i'll have to agree with lori on this one..

ppl think they know what is best for them,what we desire is not always best for us..
Click to expand...

If you agree with her then you are either just as dumb or just short sighted.

You speak of errors in judgment and I agree that those happen but my statement is a true one.

as far as hell,we create our own hell, if heaven is supposed to be about the ideal state of being,then hell is about <what is opposite of ideal?>..
what is it that causes you the most distress?

and your assumptions of hell:

not only assumes we can see them suffering, it also assumes a generic hell (one size fits all)
Click to expand...

The Bible only speaks of one hell.

Regards
DL
Click to expand...
 
Greatest I am said:
If you agree with her then you are either just as dumb or just short sighted.

You speak of errors in judgment and I agree that those happen but my statement is a true one.
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hey fucktard, i'll challenge you to an IQ test anyday. bring it on.

and your statement is ridiculous. people commit suicide. people molest and rape children. people commit murder. people use heroin. people hate each other. people are greedy,and the greedy bastards are destroying the planet at an astronomical rate. all of which will culmonate in cataclysms which will bring the human race to near extinction.

you say that people who seek redemption through christ are profiting on his murder, while you are apparently capitalizing on the suffering of all mankind.



The Bible only speaks of one hell.

Regards
DL
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what the fuck do you know about the bible or about hell? nothing. you don't even recognize the hell you're living in and perpetuating right this very minute.
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Greatest I am said:
You know exactly how God works do you?
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Seriously? You're going to call me out like that? Did you somehow forget that you created your own model of the mechanics of salvation?

Based on this hypocrisy and the way that you are dealing with everyone else in this thread I don't see how continuing this discussion could possibly be worth any more of my time.
 
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