The unprovable need for proof. Evidentialism.

Diogenes' Dog

Subvert the dominant cliche...
Registered Senior Member
I've started this thread as a repeated claim made by atheists on this forum is that religion is irrational, false or deluded because there is no proof or objective empirical evidence for the existence of God. It's time to reconsider this outdated view.

At a minimum, a rational belief is one that is reasonable for you to hold, given what else you know or believe, i.e., it coheres with your other beliefs and with observation.
At a maximum, a rational belief requires solid evidence (or “proof”) in its favour.

This maximal view - that it is irrational to believe something without evidence - has been given the label “evidentialism” and was proposed first by Locke. Unfortunately, there is no solid “evidence” that supports evidentialism. It is not a self-evident axiom, and neither is it based on other self-evident beliefs.

Evidence for a belief is always based on other beliefs in a regression until you get to a belief that is “properly basic” (foundationalism), for which very few beliefs qualify. Quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_belief

• In classical foundationalism, beliefs are held to be properly basic if they are either self-evident axiom, or evident to the senses (empiricism).
• In modern foundationalism, beliefs are held to be properly basic if they were either self-evident axiom or incorrigible. One such axiom is Rene Descartes's axiom, Cogito ergo sum ("I think, therefore I am"). Incorrigible (lit. uncorrectable) beliefs are those which one can believe without possibly being wrong. Notably, faith in the senses is NOT seen as properly basic, because, Descartes argued, all our sensory experience could be an illusion.
• In reformed epistemology, beliefs are held to be properly basic if we are naturally inclined to believe them. Examples include faith in our senses, faith in our memory, and belief in God.

A strong argument against evidentialism is that we commonly hold many beliefs quite rationally that we cannot “prove” or provide incorrigible evidence for e.g. that other people are conscious, that we dreamed of the Invisible Pink Unicorn last night, that we have a headache or that a certain picture is beautiful. Evidentialism based on foundationalism is therefore self-referentially incoherent i.e. by it’s own terms it is either false or an irrational belief.

So, what alternatives are there? “Reformed epistemology” is a development which rejects evidentialism based on foundationalism, arguing (as above) that many of our beliefs (including religious beliefs) are rational even if we cannot offer objective evidence for them. Only beliefs that are internally incoherent or which contradict the evidence are rejected as irrational. It therefore takes a more realistic “innocent until proven guilty” approach, and escapes the self-referential incoherence of evidentialism.

Another, skeptical approach that has been promoted by Rorty, Putnam and others is Pragmatism. This was a philosophy that came out of the American Civil War, where both sides considered they were fighting for “true” values. It was conceived by James, Dewey and Pearce. Pragmatism argues that a belief (e.g. a scientific theory) is only as “true” as it is useful (e.g. in explaining observed phenomena and in making predictions). All beliefs are judged on their usefulness in building a coherent working picture of the world. For example, creationism is not that useful in making correct predictions, whereas evolution has proved much more useful in this respect e.g. predicting animals such as the Tiktaalik.

Thus for a pragmatist it is possible to believe in the IPU or the FSM, but most people will reject this as not being a useful belief. Contrast this with a coherent belief in God which can provide a moral framework, a life purpose, a community, and a fulfilment of spiritual needs and which seems to result in greater happiness and longevity. For Pragmatists therefore, a healthy religion, whether you consider it “true” or not, provides a coherent and useful function both to the individual and to society, and therefore is quite rational to adopt.
 
Diogenes' Dog said:
I'...claim made by atheists on this forum is that religion is irrational...
Who said religion is supposed to be rational?

Diogenes' Dog said:
For Pragmatists therefore, a healthy religion, whether you consider it “true” or not, provides a coherent and useful function both to the individual and to society, and therefore is quite rational to adopt.
I agree with that. No-one could say that religion has not been helpful at some time. Even if it only has been placebo, it has been helpful nevertheless.
It may not be rational in the long run. Lets take the fact that Christianity did not (does not) support science and in general, new ideas. Galilei Galileo comes to mind.
Bad condition of science in Islamic countries is told to be fault of the religion.
 
Naat said:
Who said religion is supposed to be rational?

I agree with you Naat, that religion is not built on rationality. However I think it is not necessarily irrational. One of the challenges many religions face is that of rational self-enquiry so as to become rationally coherent, even when based on faith.

Naat said:
I agree with that. No-one could say that religion has not been helpful at some time. Even if it only has been placebo, it has been helpful nevertheless. It may not be rational in the long run. Lets take the fact that Christianity did not (does not) support science and in general, new ideas. Galilei Galileo comes to mind. Bad condition of science in Islamic countries is told to be fault of the religion.

I agree, science and religion should be two sides of the same coin. Too often instead they see in each other a threat to their treasured beliefs.
 
Diogenes' Dog said:
Thus for a pragmatist it is possible to believe in the IPU or the FSM, but most people will reject this as not being a useful belief. Contrast this with a coherent belief in God which can provide a moral framework, a life purpose, a community, and a fulfilment of spiritual needs and which seems to result in greater happiness and longevity. For Pragmatists therefore, a healthy religion, whether you consider it “true” or not, provides a coherent and useful function both to the individual and to society, and therefore is quite rational to adopt.
Well said, but there is one glaring problem...
It is precicely this pragmatic viewpoint that many people use to reject the notion of God and religions as a whole.
They look at the results of religious belief, fundamentalist fervor, seperation due to religios differences, wars, oppression and many other factors to support their view that the pragmatic position is to be religion-free.
They cite 9/11, The Crusades, abortion clinic bombings, the Spanish Inquisition, Witch Burnings, the Destruction of Indigenous beliefs and peoples, destruction of history, enslavement of American Indians, retardation of scientific advancement... the list goes on and on and on.
Before anyone says, "But that's not religion, that's evil people abusing religion to suit their own ends" or another such argument, that is not valid, as pragmatism is concerned solely with the results, not intentions of religions.

Many people feel that the detrimental effects of religion far outweigh the beneficial effects.
 
Diogenes' Dog said:
I agree with you Naat, that religion is not built on rationality. However I think it is not necessarily irrational. One of the challenges many religions face is that of rational self-enquiry so as to become rationally coherent, even when based on faith.
on the surface in all other aspects, religion can appear rational. however at it 's base is irrationality,
and because of that, the whole thing becomes moot.
Diogenes' Dog said:
I agree, science and religion should be two sides of the same coin. Too often instead they see in each other a threat to their treasured beliefs.
no science does'nt concider religion as a threat, it just does'nt concider it. the two are mutual exclusive, however on the other side of the coin, the same cannot be said.
 
Religion becomes the irrational position when it relies on "faith" to provide the final reason for adherence. Faith, after all, is blind trust without evidence.
 
Diogenes' Dog said:
Contrast this with a coherent belief in God which can provide a moral framework, a life purpose, a community, and a fulfilment of spiritual needs and which seems to result in greater happiness and longevity.

Nonsense, religion has not provided any of those things, in fact, all its managed to accomplish is the division of mankind, the propagation of ignorance, war, hypocrisy and the desire to drive really big SUV's.
 
This maximal view - that it is irrational to believe something without evidence - has been given the label “evidentialism” and was proposed first by Locke. Unfortunately, there is no solid “evidence” that supports evidentialism. It is not a self-evident axiom, and neither is it based on other self-evident beliefs.
science is evidentialism, and the wonderful computer you are using to post your messages would not be here without it. the success of science is evidence for evidentialism.

In reformed epistemology, beliefs are held to be properly basic if we are naturally inclined to believe them. Examples include faith in our senses, faith in our memory, and belief in God.
god does not fit there. religion is a social construct, not a innate belief. you don't see animals worshiping gods do you?

A strong argument against evidentialism is that we commonly hold many beliefs quite rationally that we cannot “prove” or provide incorrigible evidence for e.g. that other people are conscious, that we dreamed of the Invisible Pink Unicorn last night, that we have a headache or that a certain picture is beautiful. Evidentialism based on foundationalism is therefore self-referentially incoherent i.e. by it’s own terms it is either false or an irrational belief.
thats not necessarily true. I would say that all of those things have at least incorrigible evidence supporting them.


Thus for a pragmatist it is possible to believe in the IPU or the FSM, but most people will reject this as not being a useful belief. Contrast this with a coherent belief in God which can provide a moral framework, a life purpose, a community, and a fulfilment of spiritual needs and which seems to result in greater happiness and longevity. For Pragmatists therefore, a healthy religion, whether you consider it “true” or not, provides a coherent and useful function both to the individual and to society, and therefore is quite rational to adopt.
people have a spiritual need? I don't think they really do, but rather they think they do. Moreover, I do not believe that religion provides any more of a use to society than an opiate, which has a long term negative effect. you may go to your religious institution and feel better for the day (or week or whatever), but that does not mean religion has a net positive effect for the society one lives in.
 
well, science is both really. I don't think they are mutually exclusive.

definition of empiricism: the claim that all knowledge or all meaningful discourse about the world is related to sensory experience or observation.source

definition of evidentialism: In a sense, evidentialism holds that belief is only as sound as the evidence upon which it is founded. source
 
cato said:
science is evidentialism, and the wonderful computer you are using to post your messages would not be here without it. the success of science is evidence for evidentialism.

Baumgarten said:
Provide evidence of this, please.
No, seriously. I've always connoted science with empiricism, not evidentialism.

You sound like a true pragmatist cato. I would say this is not evidence for the "truth" of science (evidentialism), but for it's usefulness (pragmatism).

cato said:
god does not fit there. religion is a social construct, not a innate belief. you don't see animals worshiping gods do you?

You don't see too many animals producing art or music or dancing, yet humans have these capacities innately. Religion seems to have been a very early development in our evolution - as early as art. It seems to be fundamental to our natures.

Diogenes' Dog said:
A strong argument against evidentialism is that we commonly hold many beliefs quite rationally that we cannot “prove” or provide incorrigible evidence for e.g. that other people are conscious, that we dreamed of the Invisible Pink Unicorn last night, that we have a headache or that a certain picture is beautiful. Evidentialism based on foundationalism is therefore self-referentially incoherent i.e. by it’s own terms it is either false or an irrational belief.
cato said:
thats not necessarily true. I would say that all of those things have at least incorrigible evidence supporting them.

What incorrigible evidence? How can I prove to you "incorrigibly" that I had a certain dream last night? You can choose to take it on trust, but I have no proof.

mis-t-highs said:
on the surface in all other aspects, religion can appear rational. however at it 's base is irrationality, and because of that, the whole thing becomes moot.
SkinWalker said:
Religion becomes the irrational position when it relies on "faith" to provide the final reason for adherence. Faith, after all, is blind trust without evidence.

Religion's base is faith (trust), but that doesn't make it irrational (i.e. contradicting reason), provided it is rationally coherent with itself and with what we know of the world. Faith is trust, but it need not be blind, it can be supported by experience and rationally coherent.

mis-t-highs said:
no science does'nt concider religion as a threat, it just does'nt concider it. the two are mutual exclusive, however on the other side of the coin, the same cannot be said.

I disagree MTH. There are some "born again" atheists such as Richard Dawkins who see religion as "irrational" and an epistemological threat to science. Similarly, controversial scientists such as Rupert Sheldrake at one time were seen as very threatening (e.g. Nature published an editorial "A Book for Burning" about him). Creationists are seen as a real threat to the teaching of science (e.g. creationism vs. evolution), and of course the "pro-life" lobby is seen as threatening much future funding of e.g. genetic science.

one_raven said:
Many people feel that the detrimental effects of religion far outweigh the beneficial effects.
I agree one_raven, I think much dogmatic religion IS detrimental, especially when it becomes political. Unfortunately, that's the sort that hits the headlines. You have to balance that up with research which seems to show religion leads to greater longevity and (more controversially) greater happiness (Ref. below).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/401091.stm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/
http://www.uwire.com/content/topnews052505002.html
http://www.davidmyers.org/Brix?pageID=52
http://www.psywww.com/psyrelig/happy.htm
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/78/95776.htm
 
You sound like a true pragmatist cato. I would say this is not evidence for the "truth" of science (evidentialism), but for it's usefulness (pragmatism).
science is a method. the only "truth" it can have is to be successful as a method. how else would one go about proving the validity of science/evidentialism? the only evidence of validity you can have for such a theory or method is if it works. science/evidentialism works, therefore is valid. I agree that it seems like pragmatism, that is because in this case, it is. see what I am saying? the evidence is its usefulness, therefore it is pragmatic and valid or neither.
You don't see too many animals producing art or music or dancing,
false, birds dance and sing. and who knows what passes for art in the animal kingdom. maybe termites think their mounds are art. click->;)

What incorrigible evidence? How can I prove to you "incorrigibly" that I had a certain dream last night? You can choose to take it on trust, but I have no proof.
I thought you would nit pick that one. is it rational for me to blindly accept what you say? that depends on the evidence for truthfulness you have provided in the past.

we should not discuss things within the mind. there is very likely evidence (stored in your memory) but we simply don't have the technology to get at it.

Religion's base is faith (trust), but that doesn't make it irrational
if your trust is not based on evidence, then yes, it is irrational ;)
 
well, science is both really. I don't think they are mutually exclusive.
In the hard sciences at least, theoretical disciplines seem more evidentialist than experimental disciplines, but I believe that even the theorists ultimately respect overriding empirical observations, and the only reason they do not yield to them on a regular basis is because they are not usually the ones making them. It is true that the spirit of science is endlessly inquisitive, but in science, the investigation is always prompted by an initial observation, be that observation physical or the result of a gedanken experiment. Newton did not attempt to prove that he saw the apple fall from the tree, but took it as a given when he considered gravitation.

if your trust is not based on evidence, then yes, it is irrational
However, does a subjective observation constitute "evidence?" On a personal level at least, I think it does. My own thoughts are clearly self-evident to me, and the self-evident existence of these thoughts can be used as the basis for a rational belief. To a theist, God is self-evident, which would likewise present the basis for rational beliefs.
 
Diogenes' Dog said:
Religion's base is faith (trust), but that doesn't make it irrational (i.e. contradicting reason), provided it is rationally coherent with itself and with what we know of the world. Faith is trust, but it need not be blind, it can be supported by experience and rationally coherent.

I have yet to see a matter of religious faith that isn't dependent upon blind trust that has not a shred of evidence. Experience doesn't imply rationality. Plenty of people experience a lot of wacky stuff, that doesn't make them rational or coherent.

Indeed, faith is defined in the very doctrines that many under the spell of religion: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" [Hebrews 11:1 NKJV].
 
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Diogenes' Dog said:
Religion's base is faith (trust), but that doesn't make it irrational (i.e. contradicting reason),
how so.
Diogenes' Dog said:
provided it is rationally coherent with itself and with what we know of the world.
did I not say "on the surface in all other aspects, religion can appear rational. however at it 's base is irrationality,
and because of that, the whole thing becomes moot."
Diogenes' Dog said:
Faith is trust, but it need not be blind, it can be supported by experience and rationally coherent.
how so.
Diogenes' Dog said:
I disagree MTH. There are some "born again" atheists such as Richard Dawkins who see religion as "irrational" and an epistemological threat to science.
Ruth Hurmence Green, coined that phase, however I think you'll find that dawkin, sheldrake, etc..believe religion to be a threat to humanity and the progression of the human mind, not science per se.
 
I have yet to see a matter of religious faith that isn't dependent upon blind trust that has not a shred of evidence. Experience doesn't imply rationality. Plenty of people experience a lot of wacky stuff, that doesn't make them rational or coherent.
did I not say "on the surface in all other aspects, religion can appear rational. however at it 's base is irrationality,
and because of that, the whole thing becomes moot."
We're currently examining the old, tired arguments you are parroting. Feel free to participate at any time; all you have to do is back them up. (Or do you find them self-evident? ;) )
 
baumgarten said:
We're currently examining the old, tired arguments you are parroting.
sorry if the old arguments, seem boring, but if you ever had a way of answering them, then they would not be asked again, would they.
baumgarten said:
Feel free to participate at any time;
why! is something else happening.
baumgarten said:
all you have to do is back them up.
why! are the question asserting anything.
baumgarten said:
(Or do you find them self-evident?
is there any other way, without appearing crazy.
 
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