The U.S. Economy: Stand by for more worse news

New York Times: Obama Cheers Economy

Economy is 'Pretty Darn Great'.
- Obama, 03/2016

--o--
LOL

Ironically enough, a few weeks ago I walked past a protester holding a sign calling for Marxism and "Liberate the Worker". I asked: Liberate the worker from whom?
The answer? From the Industrialists!
LOL... The Industrialists! (I'm going to guess it's because they own the means of production!)
Me: Hahahahahahaha..... I said, mate, there are no factories here. This kid (who probably never held a job - at all, whereas I actually worked as a Chemical Engineer once for Industry, which used to exist in Michigan, GM) looked at me blankly. I repeated, hey man, there are no factories here. He just stared at me. I think he probably was hoping to get a job at a factory as an engineer after University.
Too funny.
So I said, look, the new Industrialists are the SlumLords. Protest them. They own the means of your living quarters, which is where you'll be doing most of your work, on your PC. THEY own the means of your production, your home. Socialize your means of production away from them man. Do something about 2016 man, it's not 1916. Free The Worker from the SlumLord!
Hahaha.... it was like a light bulb when on.
Too funny. I continued on my way.
 
schmelzer said:
"That's clear enough, and obviously silly. Monarchies and fascisms, for example, are not socialist governments."
Of course, and from my rule it does not follow at all that they have to be.
Yes, it does. And not only from your rule, but from your posting throughout - you consistently merge and conflate State regulation, State ownership, and State power, with socialism.

Here's your rule:
schmelzer said:
For example, I have claimed that more state ownership, more state power, more regulation means more socialism
And it is silly. Monarchies and feudalisms and fascisms and so forth are all heavy on State regulation and State power, the feudal ones also feature State ownership. By your rule, that means more socialism. In reality it usually means less socialism, even no socialism.

It's a central confusion in your thinking - it blinds you to the easy complicity of capitalism with authoritarian States, for example, with robbery and murder at the behest of capitalists a routine feature of States that set up capitalist economies.
schmelzer said:
Fine. But why should I care about the meaning of words for some left sectarians?
Your cult-specific code meanings of words like "socialism" and "capitalism" will do little but confuse your English speaking audience. Whether you care or not.
 
You consistently merge and conflate State regulation, State ownership, and State power, with socialism.
They are conflated. You cannot have socialism without a lot of state regulation and state ownership. (There is, of course, the anarcho-communistic direction, but nobody takes anarcho-communists seriously).
Here's your rule: And it is silly. Monarchies and feudalisms and fascisms and so forth are all heavy on State regulation and State power, the feudal ones also feature State ownership. By your rule, that means more socialism. In reality it usually means less socialism, even no socialism.
Learn to read. More of them means more socialism. This already presupposes a rejection of socialism as a simple yes/no binary option. So, it is, of course, not what the Popular Front or the Peoples Front of Judea accept - they have a clear position, what the Peoples Front wants, is Socialism, 100%, and what the Popular Front wants, is Fascism, and has nothing to do with Socialism, so the version of the Peoples Front.

But, sorry, this notion of "socialism" is of the past, it is the one of Soviet time, where "socialism" was what was in the Soviet Union, and what was in China or Yugoslavia was Fascism or Revisionism or whatever. It is not the Western, social-democratic notion, which requires a reformist way toward socialism, thus, a way in small steps, so what one needs to do the next step toward socialism is agreement about how to obtain, in the actual situation, a little bit more socialism. And it is quite obvious that more socialism means more state power, more state ownership, more state regulation.

In the past, I have thought that one can distinguish left and right by different domains where they want more state control or, on the contrary, more freedom. So, roughly, the right wants more state control in the political domain and less in the economy, while the left want more state in the economy but more political freedom. So that in a democracy, were sometimes the left rules, and sometimes the right, the power of the state can always increase: If the left rules, in the economy, if the right rules, in the political domain.

But this has been lost in the past. There has been, in the past, some fight for sexual freedom, but this is past, a memory of 68, today they support more state regulation in this domain too. There was the freedom to use drugs, again, a memory of 68, today they ignore the drug war, and fight alcohol and tabacco with more state regulation. There was Rock'n Roll, a powerful thing in favor of freedom of speech, but today they are on the forefront against freedom of speech.

And that the right wants more economic freedom is also only a cheap lie for the sheeple, or some memory of the past.

So, the difference between left and right today is a difference of phrases used in the election campaigns, but not a difference in real politics.

It's a central confusion in your thinking - it blinds you to the easy complicity of capitalism with authoritarian States, for example, with robbery and murder at the behest of capitalists a routine feature of States that set up capitalist economies.
Why do you think I'm somehow blinded in this relation? States are an instrument for robbery and murder, and if the ruling class in this state are capitalists, then capitalists have the possibility to rob and murder. And the difference between authoritarian states and democracies is only a formal and quite irrelevant one.
Your cult-specific code meanings of words like "socialism" and "capitalism" will do little but confuse your English speaking audience. Whether you care or not.
As if your cult-specific code meaning of "socialism" would be better.

Once the complete, Soviet-like state socialism has been given up, the remaining social-democratic variant differs only politically from fascism. The economic model is the same, it is corporatism. And corporatism is essentially also the feudalistic economic system. They are all highly regulated societies, with a lot of ownership of the state or institutions very close to the state (the Church in feudalism, Volkswagen and IG Farben in German fascism, Goldman Sachs now in the West, Gazprom in the East). Imperialism instead of free markets.
 
schmelzer said:
They are conflated. You cannot have socialism without a lot of state regulation and state ownership.
You can, of course, simply by scaling the social ownership below the State level. But we were talking about modern industrial nation-states.
schmelzer said:
(There is, of course, the anarcho-communistic direction, but nobody takes anarcho-communists seriously).
Anarcho-communism has major substance that anarcho-capitalism lacks, namely the existence of successful real life examples - some of the red tribes of North America, for example. Nobody needs to take them seriously, but they are far more than the adolescent science fiction whimsies of the anarcho-capitalists.
schmelzer said:
Learn to read. More of them means more socialism.
No, it doesn't. I listed specific examples, clearly, for you to examine. Monarchy, Fascism, Feudalism, will do - there are several other non-socialist forms of State government that can and do involve increased State power, regulation, and/or ownership.
schmelzer said:
And it is quite obvious that more socialism means more state power, more state ownership, more state regulation.
Maybe, in a modern industrial State, but irrelevant - your direction of implication was the reverse of that.
schmelzer said:
In the past, I have thought that one can distinguish left and right by different domains where they want more state control or, on the contrary, more freedom. So, roughly, the right wants more state control in the political domain and less in the economy, while the left want more state in the economy but more political freedom.
That's all nonsense. Libertarian leftists often want less State control in the political and economic realms both, and so do right libertarians. Authoritarian leftists often want more State control of the political and economic realms both, and so do authoritarian rightists.
schmelzer said:
"It's a central confusion in your thinking - it blinds you to the easy complicity of capitalism with authoritarian States, for example, with robbery and murder at the behest of capitalists a routine feature of States that set up capitalist economies."
Why do you think I'm somehow blinded in this relation?
Because you specifically denied it above - you stated that capitalism was incompatible with State robbery and murder.
schmelzer said:
Once the complete, Soviet-like state socialism has been given up, the remaining social-democratic variant differs only politically from fascism. The economic model is the same, it is corporatism. And corporatism is essentially also the feudalistic economic system.
Now you have described feudalism, capitalism, and socialism (in its "social-democratic variant") as the same economic model. They are all supposedly corporatisms. They differ from each other only politically, you say.

A better example of what happens to political and economic analysis when words have been rendered meaningless is hard to imagine. You will never be able to say anything reliably meaningful in English about the US economy or its associated politics, in this thread.
 
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Anarcho-communism has major substance that anarcho-capitalism lacks, namely the existence of successful real life examples - some of the red tribes of North America, for example. Nobody needs to take them seriously, but they are far more than the adolescent science fiction whimsies of the anarcho-capitalists.
Hm, the main means of production of that time like weapons of hunters were owned by the tribe? Nice to learn something new.
I listed specific examples, clearly, for you to examine. Monarchy, Fascism, Feudalism, will do - there are several other non-socialist forms of State government that can and do involve increased State power, regulation, and/or ownership.
They are very different for different examples. Monarchies have usually not had as much state influence as modern democratic societies. In feudalism a lot was owned by the aristocracy, the king was usually only one player among many. Regulation was, of course, a lot, but based on Holy Scriptures, nothing compared with modern law codes. So, yes, state power was there, but not in the increased forms known from modern socialism. Certainly not in comparison with its Soviet form, but less even compared with the social-democratic versions.
That's all nonsense. Libertarian leftists often want less State control in the political and economic realms both, and so do right libertarians. Authoritarian leftists often want more State control of the political and economic realms both, and so do authoritarian rightists.
As I have written, I have given up this rough rule too, there is no longer any serious difference between reft and light.
Because you specifically denied it above - you stated that capitalism was incompatible with State robbery and murder.
It would be incompatible with the idealized version of capitalism. The one where the state, if it exists (minarchistic variants) protects property and enforces contracts but does nothing else. I reject these minarchistic variants as utopian, because I think that a state always, inevitably, leads to state robbery. But this does not change the point that in this capitalist ideal all these things you mentioned (which are, I agree with you, inevitable if there is a state) are illegal, violations of law.
Now you have described feudalism, capitalism, and socialism (in its "social-democratic variant") as the same economic model. They are all supposedly corporatisms. They differ from each other only politically, you say.
Yes, this is what I think about this. They may differ a lot about what is the group of people to be despised or murdered, which forms of sexual intercourse are allowed, differ a lot about the particular regulations (because these regulations have very specific aims - to favor a particular strong guy in the competition with his competitors), quite different distributions of property, but it is essentially the same, corporatism. That means, the rich and powerful control the state, or cooperate very closely with the political power.
All what one reads in Marx, about capitalism destroying all the feudal restrictions, guilds and all this, is forgotten past.
A better example of what happens to political and economic analysis when words have been rendered meaningless is hard to imagine. You will never be able to say anything reliably meaningful in English about the US economy or its associated politics, in this thread.
If one translates "meaningful" as "compatible with your prejudices", this is correct. But irrelevant.

Anyway, once my notion of socialism is that wrong, maybe you can help me by providing precise definitions which distinguish socialism from corporatism in a clear, precise way?
 
schmelzer said:
, but it is essentially the same, corporatism. That means, the rich and powerful control the state, or cooperate very closely with the political power.
So in addition to being unable to distinguish fascist, socialist, and feudalist, governance, you are unable to distinguish corporations from people when analyzing political influence and power.

This is what happens to political discourse when propaganda operations are allowed to render the terms of that discourse meaningless.
 
So in addition to being unable to distinguish fascist, socialist, and feudalist, governance, you are unable to distinguish corporations from people when analyzing political influence and power.
You have no idea if I'm able or unable to distinguish them. All you can know, from my postings, is that I think that for some particular questions - those considered in the particular post - the differences are irrelevant.

So, this is a cheap attempt to transform a political disagreement into a personal failure of the other side.

Given that you have not given any answer to my "once my notion of socialism is that wrong, maybe you can help me by providing precise definitions which distinguish socialism from corporatism in a clear, precise way?", this looks like you have no arguments and therefore start personal attacks.
 
So in addition to being unable to distinguish fascist, socialist, and feudalist, governance, you are unable to distinguish corporations from people when analyzing political influence and power.
LOL
Okay, back to square one. We agree that the State is a geopolitical entity within which it's Government is a group of humans with the legal ability to initiate violence against morally innocent humans who happen to be "Citizens" of said State?

Independent: Saudi Arabia sentences a man to 10 years in prison and 2,000 lashes for expressing his atheism on Twitter
In this example, The Government of the State, Saudi Arabia, sentenced a man to 10 years in prison and 2,000 lashes for a thought crime.

Wiki: Slavery in the United States
In this example, The Government of the State, The United States of America, enforced Chattel Slavery as part of it's market structure.

You know in the late 1700s, any idiotic calling for the end of "Slavery" on *gasp* moral grounds, was talking gibberish. Let's be "Serious" here. All major Civilizations used humans Slaves (except Japan, but whatever).

Oh, speaking of 'serious', which was important to you - being serious, I'm still waiting for you to tell me the price of my coffee cup. Should be easy, so do it. Tell me :)



 
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schmelzer said:
You have no idea if I'm able or unable to distinguish them. All you can know, from my postings, is that I think that for some particular questions - those considered in the particular post - the differences are irrelevant.
The question considered in the particular post was the nature of corporatism: you confused it with the influence of rich people. You said that corporatism "means" - quote - " it is essentially the same, corporatism. That means, the rich and powerful control the state, or cooperate very closely with the political power." . That is not what it means. The entire point of having a term like "corporatism" is to distinguish that kind of organization from the many other forms in which rich and powerful people have great influence on the State - such as under monarchy, or feudalism, or State authoritarian communism.
 
schmelzer said:
So, this is a cheap attempt to transform a political disagreement into a personal failure of the other side
We don't have a political disagreement. You don't have a political analysis. You have posts in which you are challenging me to provide a relevant distinction between corporatism and socialism, because you think there isn't one.
michael said:
You know in the late 1700s, any idiotic calling for the end of "Slavery" on *gasp* moral grounds, was talking gibberish
As is true for every single attempt at posting a historical or political fact relevant to one of your "arguments" you have made on this forum, that is false - and not only false: it is yet another demonstration of your uncanny ability to reach into your source of alternative universe and pull out exactly the fiction whose 90 second Google search correction most directly conflicts with your latest thesis: http://www.constitution.org/tp/afri.htm

Seriously, 90 seconds. All I did was type in the name of a guy famous for calling for governmental change in the late 1700s, and append the words "slavery" and "moral" - like this: "thomas paine slavery moral". I got the founding date and circumstances of the official, politically significant, morality based abolition movement in the US - 1775;

a movement that led within a single lifetime (four score and ten years) to the bloodiest State war in American history being fought over that very matter, and the abolition of slavery within the States - the single largest freeing of people from slavery ever seen on the planet, accomplished largely by murderous State violence against {innocent} people.

Which brings us to the more worse news for the American economy, which we can summarize by pointing to the debate held tonight between the two Democratic frontrunners:
The current economic trends and prospects of the State of Michigan, which have depended on (and reached their current state largely because of) various aspects of the eventual fates of those freed slaves, were held up as signs of hope and augeries of bright futures to come, by both candidates but especially the most likely one. That's fairly grim.
 
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We don't have a political disagreement. You don't have a political analysis. You have posts in which you are challenging me to provide a relevant distinction between corporatism and socialism, because you think there isn't one.
No. Because I think there is one only of degree. At least after the Soviet type socialism, which had a clear difference, is dead.
The question considered in the particular post was the nature of corporatism: you confused it with the influence of rich people. You said that corporatism "means" - quote - " it is essentially the same, corporatism. That means, the rich and powerful control the state, or cooperate very closely with the political power." . That is not what it means. The entire point of having a term like "corporatism" is to distinguish that kind of organization from the many other forms in which rich and powerful people have great influence on the State - such as under monarchy, or feudalism, or State authoritarian communism.
The authoritarian communism is not a society where the rich rule. There are no rich in authoritarian communism. You may have political power today, but a GULAG prisoner tomorrow, you may also be a poor worker today and reach political power tomorrow, there is no status of "being rich", because what makes people rich - large ownership - does not exist. So, your description is wrong.

Then, about important differences with feudalism: They exist, and are about the status of the poor. Which are, in feudal societies, owned, but free in capitalism - and corporatism does not change this. It has some tendency toward changing it - say, with obligatory participation in labor unions, or forced labor in concentration camps or prisons, which now in America become private. Why not, "equal rights" are already past in a society full of quotes. But this tendency is not essential, you can have full scale corporatism but the poor having all the same legal status, with freedom of contract about their working place.

But is this difference important if the question considered is the rule of the rich? No. Here, another difference is more important. In feudalism, there is differentiation among the rich. The rich Jew may not be allowed to rule politically. So, to be rich is not sufficient to be politically powerful. One also has to have the correct degree, the correct religion and so on. But is this really important? It may be important for those rich who are not allowed to take political power. But the society as a whole is anyway ruled by the rich.
 
schmelzer said:
The authoritarian communism is not a society where the rich rule. There are no rich in authoritarian communism.
The term was: "rich and powerful". We agree that powerful people existed in, say, the old Soviet Union?

In the past you have shown the ability to evaluate the rhetoric of authoritarian communists with centralized economic control, with regard to their claims of poverty among the the ruling elite.
schmelzer said:
You may have political power today, but a GULAG prisoner tomorrow, you may also be a poor worker today and reach political power tomorrow, there is no status of "being rich"
Setting aside your typical whiplash between political power and great wealth, as if they could be substituted one for the other in declarative statements without affecting the truth value - since such words have only vague and changeable meanings for you anyway: note that such possibilities also exist in monarchies and feudalisms, in capitalist societies and socialist ones, in corporatist and freehold agrarian ones, essentially anywhere wealth and power have been brought into existence. Uneasy lies the head under the crown, as they say. Time and chance happeneth to them all, as my heritage puts it. Rags to rags in three generations, as the proverb is.

And that coupled with the distinction between wealth and power is kind of important - let's say central - to political analysis, since one of the few effective mitigators of this uncertainty among the rich, this constant threat of losing it all, is political power. Rich people have serious motives for using wealth to obtain political power. And the ones who do not succeed -> do not rule. Power does not accompany wealth automatically.

Note also that "large ownership" by persons - ownership entities one can jail - is often sparse and attenuated under corporatism. The rich in capitalist economies create corporations in the first place to isolate themselves from actual ownership, and these corporations own most of the wealth. This bears on one's analysis - or would, if any real analysis were to be attempted.

btw:
schmelzer said:
They exist, and are about the status of the poor. Which are, in feudal societies, owned, but free in capitalism
Unless they are free in a feudal society, which was and is fairly common, and owned in capitalism, which was once a norm and is still common in many places.

When your terms have been rendered meaningless, you can no longer undertake political and economic analysis.
 
The term was: "rich and powerful". We agree that powerful people existed in, say, the old Soviet Union?
Yes. But not "rich and powerful" in the relevant meaning. The demonstrative poverty of the powerful, say, by using standard uniforms, can, of course, ignored as propaganda. But there were no "rich" people in the sense of unquestioned ownership independent of the actual political power games.
And that coupled with the distinction between wealth and power is kind of important - let's say central - to political analysis, since one of the few effective mitigators of this uncertainty among the rich, this constant threat of losing it all, is political power. Rich people have serious motives for using wealth to obtain political power. And the ones who do not succeed -> do not rule. Power does not accompany wealth automatically.
A nice point. And here it appears that we are closer than it looks like. In the idealized capitalist society, there is no such danger. The state is (idealized as) a state of law, if you do not violate the law, fine, your ownership is safe. In the ideal, political power gives you nothing - it is only a boring job to protect the ownership of others and to arbitrage contract violations.

The other ideal is the communist one. In this ideal, there is no ownership at all. So the political power is everything, and to add "rich" to "powerful" is only (considered as) a defamation of the powerful.

Above ideals are rejected today - the communist one is not even defended by the (mainly social-democratic) left, and the other one is defended only by a small, politically irrelevant, libertarian minority. What remains are difference in degree, not clear yes/no alternatives. Differences of the type I have indicated - more socialism means more regulation, more state power, more state ownership and so on.
Note also that "large ownership" by persons - ownership entities one can jail - is often sparse and attenuated under corporatism. The rich in capitalist economies create corporations in the first place to isolate themselves from actual ownership, and these corporations own most of the wealth. This bears on one's analysis - or would, if any real analysis were to be attempted.
As usual, if it bears depends on what you want to evaluate. Once corporations are a useful tool for socializing the risks of ownership without a necessity to share the profits, this is a quite natural thing to do.
btw: Unless they are free in a feudal society, which was and is fairly common, and owned in capitalism, which was once a norm and is still common in many places.
Full agreement. (But decide what you want: To blame me for ignoring some differences, or to blame me for mentioning some differences which are common, but not 100%.)
When your terms have been rendered meaningless, you can no longer undertake political and economic analysis.
You may have a problem with this. I don't have.

Because I recognize that the meaning of words, outside the world of mathematics where they have a precise meaning, is always uncertain - but this does not make them meaningless at all.

Maybe a mathematical education is a good starting point for this. Once you have, in a beginners course for topology, first to learn six or so different notions of compactness, one has no problem distinguishing the meaning of the word "capitalism" in six or so different political directions. And you will have no illusion about the possibility to explain some general ideas in a forum where one can be happy if the other guys have some vague idea about what "compactness" possibly means. You will simply use "compactness", being aware that any mathematical proof would require much more, namely a specification of which of the six or so meanings of compactness is used. You will, if necessary, explain that the word "compactness" has different meanings. But you also know that this does not make the word "compactness" meaningless. Because there are, nonetheless, some theorems which are correct for all six or so notions of compactness.
 
schmelzer said:
In the idealized capitalist society, there is no such danger. The state is (idealized as) a state of law, if you do not violate the law, fine, your ownership is safe. In the ideal, political power gives you nothing - it is only a boring job to protect the ownership of others and to arbitrage contract violations.
That's not idealized capitalism, but utopian politics. You can only run that for as long as you don't attempt to describe the mechanics of the political system involved - at which point you will discover that even establishing ownership, let alone protecting it, and even establishing contracts, let alone arbitrating (not arbitraging) them, brings in the entire world of ideologies and wars and violence and so forth.

And if you want free market capitalism on top of it all, you're going to need a fully modern State of some kind - in particular, some kind of redistributive or "progressive" taxation setup. That's not an easy thing to set up and maintain.
schmelzer said:
Differences of the type I have indicated - more socialism means more regulation, more state power, more state ownership and so on
But you keep turning that statement around, as if you did not realize the importance of the direction of implication - it's flatly false in your first direction of implication (more reg, power, own -> more socialism: is false), and only partly true in the second (more socialism -> more State reg, power, own,: depends on what is meant by "more" socialism - if the ownership is community scale and below, the State might hardly be involved even in a completely socialized setup with no capital ownership or private property whatsoever - certain communal setups approximate this even today, within States.)

This seems to be a difficult point. Look at it this way: one could in theory set up a socialist economy in which significant property was "owned" by a designated person - their responsibility to maintain, their injury if lost or stolen, their task to make productive, their privilege to enjoy and benefit by, etc. The designation would be made by some community means - no buying or selling involved. Does that clarify things for you? Note that this setup, or close to it, was once common in North America.
schmelzer said:
The other ideal is the communist one. In this ideal, there is no ownership at all. So the political power is everything,
That depends on the setup. In the examples of communism that populated North America until recently, political power hardly existed. Even war was voluntary.
schmelzer said:
But decide what you want: To blame me for ignoring some differences, or to blame me for mentioning some differences which are common, but not 100%
They are not differences. Those differences don't exist.
schmelzer said:
"When your terms have been rendered meaningless, you can no longer undertake political and economic analysis."
You may have a problem with this. I don't have.
You have no interest in communication or analysis?
schmelzer said:
Because I recognize that the meaning of words, outside the world of mathematics where they have a precise meaning, is always uncertain - but this does not make them meaningless at all.
Your terms as you use them here have been rendered meaningless, somehow. They are not "uncertain" - they are without real referent or coherent implication. It's not a matter of them having varied implications or usages here and there, it's a matter of your inability to make sense when employing them. For example: You don't actually mean anything in your posts here - anything at all - by the terms "socialism" and "capitalism", except the value judgments "bad" and "good". To illustrate: You are on record as claiming effective equivalence between socialism and corporatism - both "bad" - and capitalism and free markets - both "good". The only way to do that is to discard the meanings of those terms.

illustration: You proffered "compactness". Compactness has several meanings. It has various definitions. But if I begin by pointing to the compactness of a firecracker before detonation and after detonation as being no different, because the relative positions of pieces of things are not interesting to me, I am unlikely to be able to say anything meaningful about anything using that term.
 
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That's not idealized capitalism, but utopian politics. You can only run that for as long as you don't attempt to describe the mechanics of the political system involved - at which point you will discover that even establishing ownership, let alone protecting it, and even establishing contracts, let alone arbitrating (not arbitraging) them, brings in the entire world of ideologies and wars and violence and so forth.
To criticize particular models of a society as utopian is, of course, valuable. I do that too. And, in particular, reject minarchistic models as utopian. Once a state exists, it will be misused, and no constitution will prevent this.

But your argument clearly overestimates the problems. There is no problem establishing contracts in a society with freedom of contract - this is a problem which can be solved by the people who want to cooperate with each other. There is a problem with finding an arbiter once some conflict occurs. This is the result of a failure of above sides, because this problem could have been solved at the time of signing the contract without any problem. Arbitrating is not for free, but this is part of the conditions of the arbiter. So, all this are solvable problems, and the solution does not even need a state.

Establishing and protecting ownership is a much more complex problem.
And if you want free market capitalism on top of it all, you're going to need a fully modern State of some kind - in particular, some kind of redistributive or "progressive" taxation setup. That's not an easy thing to set up and maintain.
First, the free market is not on top of it all, but the base. And, no, it does in no way need any redistribution, or even a progressive taxation. (Which is anyway only a propaganda lie, given that the rich will create and protect loopholes for avoiding this "progressive" taxation.)
it's flatly false in your first direction of implication (more reg, power, own -> more socialism: is false), and only partly true in the second (more socialism -> more State reg, power, own,: depends on what is meant by "more" socialism - if the ownership is community scale and below,
Fine. Given your style of discussion, one can never hope for more than a partial agreement in a partial direction, so that this counts always as much as complete agreement ;-) In fact, all what really matters is a correlation. I do not see here any -> of <-, they would make not much sense, because what would be the causality here? The only causal thing would be what happen if some socialists take the power in the state. Would this lead to more or less regulation/state ownership/state power? The answer is, I think, clear. And your point about communal ownership would be quite irrelevant for this.

And, I hope, you recognize that the difference between communal and state ownership may be formally very big, but is not essential at all from a libertarian point of view. The commune is usually nothing but the local representation of the state. The time when there was a really big difference, with towns being often independent political entities, are in the past, and the examples where they have yet some real power are not very much (Swiss, of course. Maybe in the US, I'm not sure.) Usually they are only administrative departments of the state.
one could in theory set up a socialist economy in which significant property was "owned" by a designated person - their responsibility to maintain, their injury if lost or stolen, their task to make productive, their privilege to enjoy and benefit by, etc. The designation would be made by some community means - no buying or selling involved. Does that clarify things for you? Note that this setup, or close to it, was once common in North America.
In some sense, this is simply the fate of any form of common ownership. Because a common decision making process simply does not work. So, common ownership usually ends with some particular person making the decisions, and de facto "owning" it, but only in some restricted sense.

To organize the things in such a way that the private interest of this de facto owner is essentially the same as the common interest of the collective which, in the propaganda, "owns" it, is the way to minimize the economic harm caused by socialism.

That depends on the setup. In the examples of communism that populated North America until recently, political power hardly existed. Even war was voluntary.
That means, these societies were, in these particular aspects, libertarian. Note that libertarians have no problem at all with volitional communities which decide to organize their community following communist principles. As long as these anarcho-communists accept that other communities may decide to organize themself in a capitalist way, no problem. The problems start with how the different communities interact with each other. Here, of course, one community has to accept the property of other communities, or the whole thing ends in a war between the communities.

Some cheap nonsense deleted.
For example: You don't actually mean anything in your posts here - anything at all - by the terms "socialism" and "capitalism", except the value judgments "bad" and "good".
Wrong. I have characterized, in some detail, the properties of ideal models of capitalism and communism. And without any value judgement applied:

In the idealized capitalist society, there is no such danger. The state is (idealized as) a state of law, if you do not violate the law, fine, your ownership is safe. In the ideal, political power gives you nothing - it is only a boring job to protect the ownership of others and to arbitrage contract violations.

The other ideal is the communist one. In this ideal, there is no ownership at all. So the political power is everything, and to add "rich" to "powerful" is only (considered as) a defamation of the powerful.

To illustrate: You are on record as claiming effective equivalence between socialism and corporatism - both "bad" - and capitalism and free markets - both "good". The only way to do that is to discard the meanings of those terms.
Wrong too. What I claim to be effectively equivalent is corporatism and the modern, social-democratic socialism, which no longer aims for state ownership of all means of production. Above being different from the well-defined ideal communism as well as from the well-defined ideal free-market capitalism.

Of course, I personally favor a free society. Because I like freedom for myself, and as well because I think freedom gives advantages to everybody. But does this mean that I have to apply cheap moral levels "good" and "bad" to them? No. I know that freedom, in a reasonable society, means also responsibility for the harm caused by the own free decisions. There are a lot of people who want to get rid of this responsibility. But without this responsibility, freedom becomes harmful for the society as a whole. This is the privatization of the gains, and socialization of the losses.
 
schmelzer said:
But your argument clearly overestimates the problems.
That's irrelevant. The point was that you were not talking about idealized capitalism, but idealized politics.
schmelzer said:
Wrong. I have characterized, in some detail, the properties of ideal models of capitalism and communism
No, you haven't. You talked about politics, utopian politics. You have given no indication you understand even basics, such as the fact that capitalism does not depend on the existence of free markets (one can argue it does not require markets at all - one could in theory set up an economy in which some ownership accrued to capital without even an exchange, let alone a market).
schmelzer said:
First, the free market is not on top of it all, but the base. And, no, it does in no way need any redistribution, or even a progressive taxation.
You keep saying that, but it isn't true. A free market in some good or service is quite difficult to establish and maintain in the face of physical reality and fundamental properties of games or decisions, and if you want one in a modern industrial society you will need to set up a State government of some kind.
schmelzer said:
"That depends on the setup. In the examples of communism that populated North America until recently, political power hardly existed. Even war was voluntary."
That means, these societies were, in these particular aspects, libertarian
They were also communist - an extreme form of socialism - (and some socialist in more casual ways. None were capitalist). So your claim that socialism automatically leads to more State regulation, power, and ownership, was false.
schmelzer said:
In some sense, this is simply the fate of any form of common ownership. Because a common decision making process simply does not work. So, common ownership usually ends with some particular person making the decisions, and de facto "owning" it, but only in some restricted sense
The responsibility and privilege was not "de facto", but explicitly and politically assigned as a formal, personal, obligation and status.
schmelzer said:
The only causal thing would be what happen if some socialists take the power in the state. Would this lead to more or less regulation/state ownership/state power? The answer is, I think, clear
It isn't. It depends on the situation, and one's viewpoint. In the US, in particular, we are currently involved in a political struggle in which the most socialist factions are also the most libertarian in terms of personal - human individual - regulations, ownership, and power of the State. The only increases in State extent advocated by the socialist factions are those involving State replacement of corporate regulation, ownership, and power - because socialism and corporatism are in opposition to each other in the US as well as everywhere else, and corporate power in the US is extensive and significant.

And whether or not we get more worse news for years to come, in the US, depends significantly on the outcome of this struggle.
 
You have given no indication you understand even basics, such as the fact that capitalism does not depend on the existence of free markets (one can argue it does not require markets at all - one could in theory set up an economy in which some ownership accrued to capital without even an exchange, let alone a market).
No doubt that one can set up such an economy, except that there would be nonetheless black markets. And to name such a thing capitalism is already strange. That in all the existing societies named "capitalist" the markets are far away from being free is of course well-known, and I have not questioned this.
A free market in some good or service is quite difficult to establish and maintain in the face of physical reality and fundamental properties of games or decisions, and if you want one in a modern industrial society you will need to set up a State government of some kind.
Nonsense. A free market is, by definition, one where nothing is forbidden to sell or to buy.
They were also communist - an extreme form of socialism - (and some socialist in more casual ways. None were capitalist). So your claim that socialism automatically leads to more State regulation, power, and ownership, was false.
Big deal. Of course, such a statement presupposes a state, which makes it inapplicable to tribes without any state-like structures. So, see it as a statement about modern socialism.
The responsibility and privilege was not "de facto", but explicitly and politically assigned as a formal, personal, obligation and status.
Fine. What anyway happens with collective ownership de facto, in your examples was made explicit and formal. Means, these guys were not that stupid like modern socialist sheeple who believe in ownership by the people or so.
It depends on the situation, and one's viewpoint. In the US, in particular, we are currently involved in a political struggle in which the most socialist factions are also the most libertarian in terms of personal - human individual - regulations, ownership, and power of the State. The only increases in State extent advocated by the socialist factions are those involving State replacement of corporate regulation, ownership, and power - because socialism and corporatism are in opposition to each other in the US as well as everywhere else, and corporate power in the US is extensive and significant.
Which is the general scheme I have used as a rough rule in the past too - the left in favor of political freedom and economic repression, the right in favor of free markets and political repression. Whoever is in power, increases the repression he likes.
And whether or not we get more worse news for years to come, in the US, depends significantly on the outcome of this struggle.
For you, may be.

For the rest of the world, what matters is another subdivision: warmongers vs. rational politicians ready to negotiate. If a nuclear war is started, it does not matter if Clinton or Cruz press the button.
 
Back to the thread. Ok, not about US but the whole world: http://www.financialsense.com/global-liquidity-2008-crisis-levels

bofa-global-liquidity-negative.png

Yet another indicator down to levels not known since 2008/2009.
 
schmelzer said:
"A free market in some good or service is quite difficult to establish and maintain in the face of physical reality and fundamental properties of games or decisions, and if you want one in a modern industrial society you will need to set up a State government of some kind."
Nonsense. A free market is, by definition, one where nothing is forbidden to sell or to buy.
And where no one is excluded from selling or buying. It is also a place where market exchange in whatever goods or services are involved (all markets are limited in that respect) takes place without coercion or distortion.

That's not easy to set up, or maintain, in modern industrial economy. You will need a well-run State, with all the trimmings.
schmelzer said:
Which is the general scheme I have used as a rough rule in the past too - the left in favor of political freedom and economic repression, the right in favor of free markets and political repression. Whoever is in power, increases the repression he likes
In this case we have some in power decreasing the repression they don't like. It's the difference between authoritarian and libertarian ideology.
 
And where no one is excluded from selling or buying. It is also a place where market exchange in whatever goods or services are involved (all markets are limited in that respect) takes place without coercion or distortion.
Which means that in states with a sales tax the only free markets can be black markets. And, no, you need no state. All you need is an institution which prevents coercion and distortion. This does not need a state. It needs a sufficiently strong defense against robberers and so on. Which is, of course, the most problematic thing for a libertarian society, because one would have to defend the markets not only against a few criminal robberers, but also against states.
In this case we have some in power decreasing the repression they don't like. It's the difference between authoritarian and libertarian ideology.
Yes, in principle those in power can also do something against repressions they don't like. Moreover, this would give them support by the voters, because in the campaigns they emphasize much more those domains where they would prefer less repression and present themself as freedom fighters to the sheeple.

Unfortunately, not much happens in these domains too. Much more happens in the domains where the rulers want more state power.
 
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