The Trump Presidency

[Schmelzer]

That would be a major weakness in your argument, then. Because you seem to be unable to see how Assad benefits here, or could easily see himself as benefitting as other such strongmen have.
So completely have you dismissed Assad benefits that you have overlooked an obvious source of bad fakes of gas attack videos - fakes so bad that they can be seen through by those who know better immediately, and thereby discredit the entire claim of gas attacks by Assad.

I can easily see that in principle, and in general, this could be a motivation. But not in this particular situation. Because for the population on the ground the difference between gas and other bombs is quite irrelevant, the increase of horror would be minimal. But the danger of US starting a war would be great.

And, read again, the "fakes so bad" to discredit the entire claim of gas attacks by Assad is the content of my "really funny conspiracy theory", so I have not overlooked it. But this particular theory works only if 1.) the Brits really asked for a fake attack, and they were ready to accept what they get, whatever the quality, and 2.) if there is no real gas used on the ground, not even by those who fake the fake.

but if he actually gassed people then is that not a real gas attack regardless of motivation?

Of course. (I see, I have used "fake" where "false flag" would be the correct phrase. If the terrorists really gas people, but blame Assad for doing this, it is indeed not fake gas attack, but a false flag gas attack. In the actual case it seems to be a fake gas attack, nobody really gassed.) I was not talking about the possible inconsistency in the hypothesis that it was simply a fake - why they would simply fake, instead of really gassing some people in a false flag attack? If they have gas, and if they want to fake a gas attack, the natural way to do is is to gas some people. (If they prefer to gas completely innocent civilians or their prisoners, who cares.)

I thought you denied that you are a conspiracy theorist?

That's why I have only quoted that "Russian speznas killed British special forces" conspiracy without supporting it.

the motivation being to bait the West into action yes?

From terrorist's side, of course. In my funny conspiracy at the end, the motivation from Russia to bait the West into starting a gas attack hysteria and then being completely discredited.

Why do you think that this issue is limited to the known players?
Is their room for a possible unknown player in this bizarre game that seems to be going on?

Occam's razor. Don't multiply players without necessity.

We have the terrorists with a simple motive, they are already discredited as liars, and in that particular situation they were unable to organize the false flag as planned, with really gassed people. We have the Brits doing everything to fight Russia. No necessities for further players. (Introducing more players, in particular the Elders of Zion, I leave to conspiracy theorists.)

btw regarding that video,
You believe the reporters commentary. Why?
No eyewitness statements, no corroborating testimony ...only his word? Really?

Why not? He tells exactly what I would have expected to see myself.

Do you believe that the recent ongoing global cyber attack is a fake as well and as such there is no one to blame?

After the combined Skripal and Douma fakes, I would not wonder if more fakes follow. Given that a professional attack you cannot reliably trace back, and that you can cry "our specialists have found that it was Russia" for free, it is, of course, an ideal place for the modern Western fakes, where it does not even matter at all if you have some proofs or not.

I have no doubt that the Russian secret services will try to hack whatever they can. But these will be hacks with the intention to gain information, thus, to remain undetected. Not openly attacking sites in a way which is easily detectable.

 

[Quantum Quack]

I can easily see that in principle, and in general, this could be a motivation. But not in this particular situation. Because for the population on the ground the difference between gas and other bombs is quite irrelevant, the increase of horror would be minimal. But the danger of US starting a war would be great.

And, read again, the "fakes so bad" to discredit the entire claim of gas attacks by Assad is the content of my "really funny conspiracy theory", so I have not overlooked it. But this particular theory works only if 1.) the Brits really asked for a fake attack, and they were ready to accept what they get, whatever the quality, and 2.) if there is no real gas used on the ground, not even by those who fake the fake.

Of course. (I see, I have used "fake" where "false flag" would be the correct phrase. If the terrorists really gas people, but blame Assad for doing this, it is indeed not fake gas attack, but a false flag gas attack. In the actual case it seems to be a fake gas attack, nobody really gassed.) I was not talking about the possible inconsistency in the hypothesis that it was simply a fake - why they would simply fake, instead of really gassing some people in a false flag attack? If they have gas, and if they want to fake a gas attack, the natural way to do is is to gas some people. (If they prefer to gas completely innocent civilians or their prisoners, who cares.)

That's why I have only quoted that "Russian speznas killed British special forces" conspiracy without supporting it.

From terrorist's side, of course. In my funny conspiracy at the end, the motivation from Russia to bait the West into starting a gas attack hysteria and then being completely discredited.

Occam's razor. Don't multiply players without necessity.

We have the terrorists with a simple motive, they are already discredited as liars, and in that particular situation they were unable to organize the false flag as planned, with really gassed people. We have the Brits doing everything to fight Russia. No necessities for further players. (Introducing more players, in particular the Elders of Zion, I leave to conspiracy theorists.)

Why not? He tells exactly what I would have expected to see myself.

After the combined Skripal and Douma fakes, I would not wonder if more fakes follow. Given that a professional attack you cannot reliably trace back, and that you can cry "our specialists have found that it was Russia" for free, it is, of course, an ideal place for the modern Western fakes, where it does not even matter at all if you have some proofs or not.

I have no doubt that the Russian secret services will try to hack whatever they can. But these will be hacks with the intention to gain information, thus, to remain undetected. Not openly attacking sites in a way which is easily detectable.

If it were a rebel false or fake gas attack and their motive was to bait the West then:
Why haven't they finished the job of baiting?
Why did they stop ?
Why haven't they faked another gas attack immediately after Trumps retaliation?

After all faking it seems so easy to do....(no gas required)
If the rebels launched another fake or false flag attack immediately after the USA, French and UK missile strikes what do you think would have happened? They would have probably succeeded in setting up ww3 but they failed to.

Trump threatened Syria with ongoing military action/pressure yet the fake gas attacks stopped. Surely the rebels had an ideal opportunity to get further Western involvement but they didn't take advantage of it. Why is that do you think?

This says quite clearly that the rebels didn't launch fake gas attacks. If they had done so they would have further provoked the USA by launching another immediately after the latest missile attack on Syria.
You do realize that the world may be in a really dark place at the moment, but pictures/video of corpses ( 40 odd) with out any visible sign of injury lying on the ground are not the sort of thing made public ( typically)

Do you think that the WEST would have only acted on the video evidence you have seen?

Perhaps you may consider rogue elements of the Syrian military, Russian military as potentially responsible.
I don't think Putin has as much control over the military situation as he pretends to have. Both in Syria and in Russia and that could be why this whole thing is so bizarre...and why the Pentagon advised as it did and why Trump warned Putin in advance.
The last thing the world needs is a bad arsed military coup in Russia.
Putin can not even control the cyber efforts currently occurring... such a stupid waste of advantage..and managing to stress test Western IT security for free as well.

 

[Schmelzer]

If it were a rebel false or fake gas attack and their motive was to bait the West then:
Why haven't they finished the job of baiting?
Why did they stop ?
Why haven't they faked another gas attack immediately after Trumps retaliation?

It makes not much sense to do such a thing if nobody pays for this and if nobody asks for this.

The West organizing/paying for this is part as of Lavrov's version (he has named Britain, not explicitly, but everybody understood that he means Britain) and my main version, as of my funny conspiracy, where the terrorists sell the connection with the West to the Russians, and the Russians fake the false flag. The terrorists are only local executors. They anyway do whatever you want for money, but in this case there is not even a conflict of interest.

If the West does not pay, there will be also no attacks, and even if there will be claims about attacks in some terrorist twits, nobody cares. In fact, during the last year, there have been a lot of twits with claims of yet another gas attack, but nobody has cared about this in the Western media. It is the West, those who decides what becomes Big News in the Western media, who decides if such a local claim becomes big news or not.

After all faking it seems so easy to do....(no gas required)
If the rebels launched another fake or false flag attack immediately after the USA, French and UK missile strikes what do you think would have happened? They would have probably succeeded in setting up ww3 but they failed to.

It depends of what the West wants. The terrorists alone decide nothing. They offer their help organizing the false flags, if necessary, that's all.

This says quite clearly that the rebels didn't launch fake gas attacks. If they had done so they would have further provoked the USA by launching another immediately after the latest missile attack on Syria.
You do realize that the world may be really dark at the moment but pictures/video of corpse ( 40 odd) with out any visible sign of injury lying on the ground are not the sort of thing made public ( typically)

??????? Corpse without any visible sign of injury are boring and not impressive at all. Moreover, too easy to fake. Some people lying around. After the picture, they stand up and have fun. Corpse should be severely damaged, else nobody cares.

Do you think that the WEST would have only acted on the video evidence you have seen?

Do you think Hitler would have attacked Poland without Poland attacking Gleiwitz? The West acted because he wanted to act, and that's why he has paid the terrorists to do a false flag operation.

If it is a false flag, then the West has organized this, and done this with the intention to attack. And the West attacks, knowing that this is faked. "The West" is, of course, a simplification. In this case, it looks like the MI6, but this is already guesswork for conspiracy theorists. It is what I name the globalist faction of the deep state.

 

[iceaura]

Occam's razor. Don't multiply players without necessity.

Says the espouser of multiple "deep states" and their various players.

Why not? He tells exactly what I would have expected to see myself.

And that is as always your primary criterion for belief.
- - - - -

Because for the population on the ground the difference between gas and other bombs is quite irrelevant, the increase of horror would be minimal.

That isn't what other strongmen have decided - guys like Assad have often gone to considerable trouble to use gas instead of other weapons.

But this particular theory works only if 1.) the Brits really asked for a fake attack, and they were ready to accept what they get, whatever the quality, and 2.) if there is no real gas used on the ground, not even by those who fake the fake.

On the contrary, it works regardless of anything the Brits think or do, and especially well if there is real gas on the ground and everybody knows Assad has some.

If it is a false flag, then the West has organized this, and done this with the intention to attack.

Or Assad has done it, with the intention to terrorize. Or Israel has done it, with the intention of having somebody else attack somebody else. Or Saudi Arabia has done it, with the intention of trapping the US - lots of people are taking Trump's rhetoric seriously, not just you.

 

[iceaura]

For anyone who still needs an explanation of the Republican Party and its media wing:

Michael Cohen was working for the following three people:

Donald Trump
Elliot Broidy
Sean Hannity

Those were his only "legal service" clients, apparently. So he claims.

Speculation on the Left is connecting Hannity's involvement with that Dem campaign computer guy who was murdered under odd circumstances during the Clinton email hacking publicity. Hannity was in the middle of pushing that scandal.

 

[Schmelzer]

Says the espouser of multiple "deep states" and their various players.

You think if one thinks there is a deep state, which is nothing but an inofficial network among the ruling elites, this is already conspiracy theory? Ok, in this case I propose a conspiracy theory.

And that is as always your primary criterion for belief.

Show me those who think "He says what I think, he must be a liar".

That isn't what other strongmen have decided - guys like Assad have often gone to considerable trouble to use gas instead of other weapons.

Examples, please, but without guys supported by the US so that they could feel safe doing it. And without those who have simply tried to get such weapons - that chemical weapons are the atomic weapons of the small man is well-known.

On the contrary, it works regardless of anything the Brits think or do, and especially well if there is real gas on the ground and everybody knows Assad has some.

No, it works only if the Western media want it. They give a shit what really happens on the ground.

Or Assad has done it, with the intention to terrorize. Or Israel has done it, with the intention of having somebody else attack somebody else. Or Saudi Arabia has done it, with the intention of trapping the US - lots of people are taking Trump's rhetoric seriously, not just you.

I have talked about false flags. If Assad would have done it, it would not be a false flag. Israel is part of the West. Saudi Arabia is part of the West. So this was all already covered. And while there are important splits in "the West", a false flag works only if supported by the faction which controls the major Western media.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Corpse without any visible sign of injury are boring and not impressive at all. Moreover, too easy to fake. Some people lying around. After the picture, they stand up and have fun. Corpse should be severely damaged, else nobody cares.

Well you know... the inspection team that is still being blocked from access by the Syrians and Russians ( as of last reports) would most likely want to do or organize autopsies as a priority. A bit hard to hide 40 odd corpses killed by chemical weapons, even if they have to be exhumed...so I guess we shall have to wait and see ....

Also I am confident that many video recordings were taken by many persons on the ground at the time, just a matter of time and opportunity for them to surface and be assessed.

We have already had shown on TV here victim testimony, mother and child, describing in detail the cloud of gas and the effect on their breathing. But of course this is all staged and fake according to you...yes?

 

[iceaura]

You think if one thinks there is a deep state, which is nothing but an inofficial network among the ruling elites, this is already conspiracy theory? Ok, in this case I propose a conspiracy theory.

No - "conspiracy theory" didn't come up. I didn't mention it.

Examples, please, but without guys supported by the US so that they could feel safe doing it.

? What's unsafe about being supported by Russia?
Not counting tear gas and the like, one supposes - - There's the famous Saddam gas attacks, some while actually at war with the US. The Iran/Iraq war, some stuff in Yemen by Egypt a while back, Rhodesia, Vietnam (against Thais), the Soviets against the Afghans,

and now probably Assad, of course. Those are all wars, more or less: gas as State terrorism is usually smaller scale.

No, it works only if the Western media want it

State terrorism works without media at all, sometimes.

Show me those who think "He says what I think, he must be a liar".

That's not the choice.

I have talked about false flags. If Assad would have done it, it would not be a false flag

Why not? If it's supposed to look like an attempt to fix false blame on Assad, but Assad intentionally arranged that appearance, that's a false flag operation.

Saudi Arabia is part of the West.

Uh, no. Hell no.

 

[Schmelzer]

State terrorism works without media at all, sometimes.

??????????
We talk here about a false flag operation which leads to a media hysteria in the Western media and a bombing by Western forces, if you have forgotten. This does not happen without Western media (and without support by their rulers).

Why not? If it's supposed to look like an attempt to fix false blame on Assad, but Assad intentionally arranged that appearance, that's a false flag operation.

This would be the sort of faked false flag which I have named "my funny conspiracy theory". Fine, but the point of such an operation would be that no gas is used in reality, thus, the claims that gas was used would then appear to be wrong, and those who made the claims discredited as liars. So, this would be another sort of game.

About Saudi Arabia as part of the West:

Uh, no. Hell no.

Without America, there would be no Saudi Arabia today. They have made too many enemies around the world by exporting terrorism, and even with their extremely large military budget they appear unable to win even against Yemen. (But, ok, if one believes bin Salman, without America, SA simply would not have done this and behaved like a civilized country.)

Well you know... the inspection team that is still being blocked from access by the Syrians and Russians ( as of last reports) would most likely want to do or organize autopsies as a priority. A bit hard to hide 40 odd corpses killed by chemical weapons, even if they have to be exhumed...so I guess we shall have to wait and see ....
Also I am confident that many video recordings were taken by many persons on the ground at the time, just a matter of time and opportunity for them to surface and be assessed.
We have already had shown on TV here victim testimony, mother and child, describing in detail the cloud of gas and the effect on their breathing. But of course this is all staged and fake according to you...yes?

According to the physicians working in the hospital were the fake video was made, there were several fires at this day, and wind, so a mix of dust and fume from fire, and they have had patients with breathing problems because of this. So no contradiction. But in general I agree - we will see.

The blocking was caused by some nearby shooting.

BTW, the Russians continue their disinformation campaign by claims that they have found other participants, namely a boy who has done the job for some food as the payment:

 

[iceaura]

Without America, there would be no Saudi Arabia today.

So?

We talk here about a false flag operation which leads to a media hysteria in the Western media and a bombing by Western forces,

So?
It might very well have succeeded in demonstrating that Assad can gas people and get away with it - that all the noise and bombing by the West will not save you, only submission to Assad. Pretty standard State terrorism, that would be.

 

[Quantum Quack]

BTW, the Russians continue their disinformation campaign by claims that they have found other participants, namely a boy who has done the job for some food as the payment:

Can't say! Any one would do anything if there is a gun held at their heads.
The amount of violent coercion being applied by Assad and Putin would be more than sufficient to get people to bear false witness.
Perhaps Syria offered the boy the food?
Perhaps Assad offered the boy his families safe passage?
Perhaps Assad used dire threat to gain false witness?
Perhaps later the boy, and his family might have something to say? ( if they stay alive of course)

 

[Quantum Quack]

Without America, there would be no Saudi Arabia today.

hee hee
with out the USA aid they would be no Russia today nor Germany, nor Japan....either.
The only reason the cold war ended was because the USSR lost it, not because the USA won it.

 

[Schmelzer]

Can't say! Any one would do anything if there is a gun held at their heads.

Any idea how difficult it is to make child actors to play in a natural, believable way? Especially if you don't have hundreds of children to make a choice, but you have a quite limited choice, namely those on the video?

As I said, with such child actors in Assad Film Studios Hollywood is doomed.

Perhaps later the boy, and his family might have something to say? ( if they stay alive of course)

This is the question which the Russians ask now about the Skripals.

with out the USA aid they would be no Russia today nor Germany, nor Japan....either.

Makes no sense. Aid may decrease the number of victims in some cases, but plays no role in the survival of nations or states. For Russia, US aid played no role at all, their firms have gained much more than US has given in form of aid. Germany, Russia and Japan were established national states, not even 40 years of political split in Germany have been able to destroy this. Instead, Saudi Arabia is not a nation at all, not even in the weak meaning typical for Arabian countries with artificial borders made by colonial powers. And, note, my point is not the survival of the people living in Saudi Arabia, they would have been fine without US, and there was no US aid at all, never. Without political support of the US, the political construction of that monarchy would have faded away.

 

[iceaura]

Any idea how difficult it is to make child actors to play in a natural, believable way? Especially if you don't have hundreds of children to make a choice, but you have a quite limited choice, namely those on the video?

It's pretty simple to decide whether or not to release a video depending on how well the shoot went.
Yet another reason to remember that video is the liar's medium of choice.

Any idea when the UN inspection team is going to be allowed to check out the scene?
No reason to worry about Trump, after all - he's been careful not to interfere with Russia's agenda.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Local news has it that Trump has gone Twitter nuttso

 

[Schmelzer]

It's pretty simple to decide whether or not to release a video depending on how well the shoot went.
Yet another reason to remember that video is the liar's medium of choice.

Nice explanation why the White Helmets like to make videos.

Any idea when the UN inspection team is going to be allowed to check out the scene?

They were already on the scene today. And Russia is worried because it learned that the OPCW plans to visit less sites than the Russians have proposed, and to talk with less witnesses.

 

[iceaura]

Nice explanation why the White Helmets like to make videos.

Absolutely.

They were already on the scene today.

What do mean "already"? They're way late - it's going to be hard to find out anything for sure now.

And Russia is worried because it learned that the OPCW plans to visit less sites than the Russians have proposed, and to talk with less witnesses.

They aren't following the Russia setup? Might as well have let them in right away, then, and saved the trouble.
Unless that would have turned out badly.
But that's hard to credit, with the UN being a US lackey and Trump buddies with Putin - right?

 

[Schmelzer]

They aren't following the Russia setup?

Setup or not, investigations are investigations, and those doing investigations usually would hear everything what all sides want to say. Remember the basic strategy every lawyer recommends everybody? Don't tell the police anything.

Might as well have let them in right away, then, and saved the trouble. Unless that would have turned out badly.
But that's hard to credit, with the UN being a US lackey and Trump buddies with Putin - right?

Sorry, I'm unable to make sense of this. Just to correct the obvious nonsense: Those who have power in the UN structures are globalists. Two of the three fighters (May, Macron) are globalists. Those who have organized the fake gas attack, probably MI6, are globalists. So nothing at all strange with hidden support of UN guys with the Western position. Then, even if Trump is not a globalist, Trump and Putin are not buddies, except in anti-Russian conspiracy theories.

 

[iceaura]

Setup or not, investigations are investigations, and those doing investigations usually would hear everything what all sides want to say.

And they are, apparently.

Remember the basic strategy every lawyer recommends everybody? Don't tell the police anything.

That doesn't apply to witnesses. That's for suspects.

Two of the three fighters (May, Macron) are globalists

And Trump, and the heads of State of every other country involved including Putin.
You've got yourself another term to beat into meaninglessness.

So nothing at all strange with hidden support of UN guys with the Western position.

So? You expect dishonesty from the UN inspectors? That's not how it worked with the UN weapons inspectors in Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, various Africa, etc - W the globalist had to explicitly reject their findings and disregard their reports, to invade Iraq.
Biggest problem with UN inspectors so far has been the US packing their ranks with spies. But that wouldn't be a factor here, right? Nobody can learn secrets about Assad's weapons and so forth from an event in which he was not involved and nowhere around.

 

[Kittamaru]

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/trump-if-farmers-get-hit-theyll-understand

“When we do a deal with China – which probably we will, if we don’t they’ll have to pay pretty high taxes to do business with our country. That’s a possibility. But if we do a deal with China, if during the course of a negotiation they want to hit the farmers, because they think that hits me, I wouldn’t say that’s nice, but I tell you, our farmers are great patriots. These are great patriots. They understand that they’re doing this for the country. And we’ll make it up to them. In the end they’re going to be much stronger than they are right now.”

Basically... fuck the farmers...