The Triple Whammy of Suffering

S

swarm

Registered Senior Member
Religion is a tripple whammy of suffering based on...

Religious Faith - the purposeful choosing of ignorance over knowledge.
Heavens - The ultimate imaginary object of lust
Hells - The ultimate imaginary object of fear

It bases these on an "epistomology" based on the primacy of authority over investigation and dogma over fact.
 
You're preaching, swarm.

Do you have a question or a point of discussion?
 
swarm,

I think it depends on the religion. Buddhism may be a bit different.

Overall I agree that monotheistic belief is base, but, it also has some other things that may be good. For example, there is no need to seek revenge or hold a grudge against so and so because they are going to hell (God will judge them). I don't know anyone who really thinks (or worries) they are going to go to hell (sure maybe it's a good scare for kids but adults???)
 
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To qualify the statement on Buddhism. Buddhist meditation appears to up regulate neurogenesis in the hippocampus physically strengthening the neural limbic system and increasing overall sense of well being. Given that many, maybe most, people need superstition to get by in life, I'd say this is a pretty good benefit in Buddhist belief.
 
draqon said:
how is faith and religious faith different?
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Ordinary faith is about things concerning which you have sufficient understanding for drawing reasonable conclusions.

So it might not be a given that a gambler will lose and particular time they gamble, but I have great faith that the house is not losing in the long run.
 
Michael said:
To qualify the statement on Buddhism. Buddhist meditation appears to up regulate neurogenesis in the hippocampus physically strengthening the neural limbic system and increasing overall sense of well being. Given that many, maybe most, people need superstition to get by in life, I'd say this is a pretty good benefit in Buddhist belief.
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The core Buddhist practices avoid religious faith, heaven and hell.

Like meditation, its about things which have direct application, being compassionate, living morally, sharpening your mind. In fact one is admonished not to take things on faith but to verify them personally first and make sure they work and are reasonable.
 
swarm said:
Religion is a tripple whammy of suffering based on...

Religious Faith - the purposeful choosing of ignorance over knowledge.
Heavens - The ultimate imaginary object of lust
Hells - The ultimate imaginary object of fear

It bases these on an "epistomology" based on the primacy of authority over investigation and dogma over fact.
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not sure what heaven has to do with (imaginary) lust (unless you are purposefully choosing ignorance over knowledge in your investigation on the subject).

Do you mean as opposed to an object of lust based in reality?
:D


but anyway

no need to look so afar for a triple whammy of suffering

we have it right here

in the form of
  1. suffering caused by natural phenomena (earthquakes, floods, etc)
  2. suffering caused by one's body and mind
  3. suffering caused by the bodies of other living entities (from tax agents to mosquitoes)
 
swarm said:
It is falsely protrayed as being the most desirable place to be.
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actually this material world (with it's triple whammy of suffering as previously mentioned) is falsely portrayed as the most desirable place to be

In their lust for heaven people will do all manner of dispicable acts to themselves and others.
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so your reasoning is that "anything goes" in the pursuit of a place in the spiritual world?
 
lightgigantic said:
actually this material world (with it's triple whammy of suffering as previously mentioned) is falsely portrayed as the most desirable place to be
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No it is rightly portrayed as the place we are.

so your reasoning is that "anything goes" in the pursuit of a place in the spiritual world?
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My reasoning is that imaginary heavens aren't worth the breath wasted on them.
 
swarm
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
actually this material world (with it's triple whammy of suffering as previously mentioned) is falsely portrayed as the most desirable place to be
”
No it is rightly portrayed as the place we are.
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yes
smack bang in the thick of illusion
“
so your reasoning is that "anything goes" in the pursuit of a place in the spiritual world?
”
My reasoning is that imaginary heavens aren't worth the breath wasted on them.
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that's fine but it still doesn't throw any light on your ambiguous suggestions of "anything goes"
 
swarm said:
Don't make me laugh.



I never made any such suggestion. Its your nonsense, you defend it.
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In their lust for heaven people will do all manner of dispicable acts to themselves and others.


well?

(being prone to forgetfulness is but one symptom of illusion)
:shrug:
 
Unfortunately, people will always suffer. Buddha was big on that. Buddhists still suffer. We all suffer. People don't suffer from religion. People suffer under the human condition.
 
munty13 said:
Unfortunately, people will always suffer. Buddha was big on that. Buddhists still suffer. We all suffer. People don't suffer from religion. People suffer under the human condition.
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Actually that is not what Buddhism teaches, though many, even Buddhists get confused on this issue. Here is the full deal...


The Nature of Suffering (Dukkha):
"This is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering."

Suffering's Origin (Samudaya):
"This is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there, that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination."

Suffering's Cessation (Nirodha):
"This is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, nonreliance on it."

The Way (Mārga) Leading to the Cessation of Suffering:
"This is the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering: it is the Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths

The intent of the eightfold path is to develop sila/morality, pranna/wisdom and samadhi/attention and focus. While developing these there are five precepts which are recommended to help keep one out of trouble: abstain from harming others, lying, stealing, abusing sex, and abusing intoxicants.

To sum up, the carrot of enlightenment is the cessation of suffering.
 
swarm said:
Well what? What does this have to do with your claim that "anything goes?"

As for my claim, the inquisition seems sufficient.
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"all manner of despicable acts" doesn't seem to have exclusive demands
:rolleyes:

And the inquisition, eh?
Strange choice of ecclesiastical bodies to use as a bench mark for analyzing "the means of getting into heaven" (but then, you being the type of atheist that you are, perhaps not).

I don't know what sort of congregational activities you have participated in where they used the example of the inquisition to inspire people to be more vigilant in the pursuit of spiritual ideals.

Geez

The catholic church even publically apologized for the activities of the inquisition.

Its kind of like someone discussing some wayward political leader (stalin, hitler, pol pot, etc) as a key for a comprehensive argument for anarchy or a world without any form of political rule.

Just listening to this makes me feel like I am dealing with a teenager with unresolved anger issues ...
:eek:
 
lightgigantic said:
"all manner of despicable acts" doesn't seem to have exclusive demands
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Oh we could go with the massacre of xtians in Japan or the massacre of buddhists in China and so on there is plenty of universal "love" for every one.

And the inquisition, eh?
Strange choice of ecclesiastical bodies to use as a bench mark for analyzing "the means of getting into heaven" (but then, you being the type of atheist that you are, perhaps not).
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They are as good as any. And what type of atheist do you think I am any way?

I don't know what sort of congregational activities you have participated in where they used the example of the inquisition to inspire people to be more vigilant in the pursuit of spiritual ideals.
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The seeds of the inquisition have been in every church I've been too.

The catholic church even publically apologized for the activities of the inquisition.
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"Oops! Sorry about all the murder and torture. Sorry about the dark ages. Sorry about persecuting any one who speaks for the truth or worships differently. We promise not to do it again until we seize power."

Just listening to this makes me feel like I am dealing with a teenager with unresolved anger issues ...
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That's ok. I often feel like I'm dealing with a delusional idiot.
 
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