The speed of light may have been broken.

You can't count very well. Count me out, please, as I've not claimed the CERN findings prove anything, and indeed, as per my next post, I believe they are well contradicted by existing physics.
I read the following...
Walter L. Wagner said:
Sixth, if John Ellis is willing to entertain that Einstein's theory needs overhaul, how can he be so certain that dangerous strangelets can't be created by collisions of Lead nuclei at conditions that don't happen in nature, other than in deep space far away from astronomical bodies?
...as saying "See? Those Physicists claim they have all the answers while I've been saying they don't know what they're doing. Now shut down the LHC before we all die in a fiery explosion!"
OK, maybe it's a stretch. ;) Anyway no offense was intended. I have an abrasive sense of humor
Smithison said:
Also, gold dust is a new member here and the only post I saw him make was the one in this thread... and as far as I know, he never claimed he predicted the superluminal neutrino??
Hmm you may be right. I think I confused Gold Dust with Hansda
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2824707&postcount=368
 
So far, I count 5 posters that claim the CERN findings validate their theories:

Wellwisher
Reiku
Motor Daddy
Walter Wagner
Gold Dust


I make no comments on the theories, I just find it interesting that all of the authors seem to have had a speeding neutrino in common. :rolleyes:

you may say that a different set of relativity will rule when speed of light is superceeded.
 
Originally Posted by RJBeery
So far, I count 5 posters that claim the CERN findings validate their theories:

Wellwisher
Reiku
Motor Daddy
Walter Wagner
Gold Dust

I make no comments on the theories, I just find it interesting that all of the authors seem to have had a speeding neutrino in common.


Well the theory was posted for everyone to see 4 years ago. So I guess at least one of the above is correct in this post. I am not sure about the other 4 posters.

in this thread "Is a Neutrino a Tachyon?",
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=71654

I would say Reiku was pretty correct, or at least on the right track.


Big deal. I know.

The guy says something 4 years ago in sciforums. It is met with scepticism and ridicule. Then it is proven right 4 years later, and is still subject to the trolls.

Kudos to Reiku, and shame on the trolls.
 
@ Dywy,



I am usually wrong?
LMAO. This coming from Dywy. Oh noes!
Gonna fling some poop at me now.
Go on; Fling some poo. I know you want to.

Reiku was proven correct as I said in my last post based on the link in post # 1 of this thread. This entire thread is about the recent discovery that neutrinos travel faster than light.

Admit you are wrong Dywy, and give it up. (like that will ever happen).

Reiku is a genius compared to Dywy. I challenge anyone here to read through threads Reiku has started and not become fascinated. Yet Dywys major contribution to this website is trolling.

Dywys famous lines,
"Wrong!" (when he is)
"Support your position" (when it is common knowledge)
"You doodoohead" (sorry think he says crank)
"Not so" (even if it is,)

what would you think if I told you there is a parallel universe and you are part of it and live it by your every action . A second information stream is what I call it . It is intertwined with our common comprehension also . Your lack of free will on an individual bases is non existent and by seeing it which you can , but choose to ignore because of the self wanting to believe there is freewill . What you think about that crankery . Huuu ( blows on my freshly painted finger nails )

Hey guys I could never quite get that speed has a limit . Would not the rules of time dilation be the constant . Meaning if I am going 3 miles an hour and you was going 5 miles an hour there still would be a time dilation . Which you could witness over time by the productivity of an event . I don't really see what the speed has to do with the out of phase situations
 
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Let us briefly review the history of the discovery of neutrinos.

From Wikipedia: "Historically, the study of beta decay provided the first physical evidence of the neutrino. In 1911 Lise Meitner and Otto Hahn performed an experiment that showed that the energies of electrons emitted by beta decay had a continuous rather than discrete spectrum. This was in apparent contradiction to the law of conservation of energy, as it appeared that energy was lost in the beta decay process. A second problem was that the spin of the Nitrogen-14 atom was 1, in contradiction to the Rutherford prediction of ½.
In 1920-1927, Charles Drummond Ellis (along with James Chadwick and colleagues) established clearly that the beta decay spectrum is really continuous, ending all controversies.
In a famous letter written in 1930 Wolfgang Pauli suggested that in addition to electrons and protons atoms also contained an extremely light neutral particle which he called the neutron. He suggested that this "neutron" was also emitted during beta decay and had simply not yet been observed. In 1931 Enrico Fermi renamed Pauli's "neutron" to neutrino, and in 1934 Fermi published a very successful model of beta decay in which neutrinos were produced.
[edit]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_decay

"Before the idea of neutrino oscillations came up, it was generally assumed that neutrinos travel at the speed of light. The question of neutrino velocity is closely related to their mass. According to relativity, if neutrinos are massless, they must travel at the speed of light. However, if they carry a mass, they cannot reach the speed of light. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino

In other words, in order to conserve both momentum and energy during beta decay, the theoretical particle called a 'neutrino' was predicted. It was presumed that the neutrino either travelled at the speed of light and had zero rest mass (most dominant theory until the 1980s) but momentum (analogous to the electromagnetic photon, speed of light, momentum, but zero rest mass); or else it travelled at near-relativistic speeds with very small rest-mass. (less popular and unproven).

However, with the apparent discovery of neutrino oscillation, it became popular though not universal to assert that neutrinos have a very small rest mass: "Neutrinos are most often created or detected with a well defined flavor (electron, muon, tau). However, in a phenomenon known as neutrino flavor oscillation, neutrinos are able to oscillate between the three available flavors while they propagate through space. Specifically, this occurs because the neutrino flavor eigenstates are not the same as the neutrino mass eigenstates (simply called 1, 2, 3). This allows for a neutrino that was produced as an electron neutrino at a given location to have a calculable probability to be detected as either a muon or tau neutrino after it has traveled to another location. This quantum mechanical effect was first hinted by the discrepancy between the number of electron neutrinos detected from the Sun's core failing to match the expected numbers, dubbed as the "solar neutrino problem". In the Standard Model the existence of flavor oscillations implies nonzero differences between the neutrino masses, because the amount of mixing between neutrino flavors at a given time depends on the differences in their squared-masses. There are other possibilities in which neutrino can oscillate even if they are massless. If Lorentz invariance is not an exact symmetry, neutrinos can experience Lorentz-violating oscillations."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino

Thus, observed oscillations in 'flavor' (type of neutrino based on origin source) suggested that neutrinos had a small rest mass, and therefore according to Einstein had to travel at less than c. But do they?

"Lorentz-violating neutrino oscillation refers to the quantum phenomenon of neutrino oscillations described in a framework that allows the breakdown of Lorentz invariance. Today, neutrino oscillation or change of one type of neutrino into another is an experimentally verified fact; however, the details of the underlying theory responsible for these processes remain an open issue and an active field of study. The conventional model of neutrino oscillations assumes that neutrinos are massive, which provides a successful description of a wide variety of experiments; however, there are a few oscillation signals that cannot be accommodated within this model, which motivates the study of other descriptions. In a theory with Lorentz violation neutrinos can oscillate with and without masses and many other novel effects described below appear. The generalization of the theory by incorporating Lorentz violation has shown to provide alternative scenarios to explain all the established experimental data through the construction of global models." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz-violating_neutrino_oscillations

If they have a rest mass, and travel at near-c but slightly below c, there should be a slight variation in their speeds based upon their total energy (most of which would be kinetic energy, not rest-mass energy). In other words, various high-energy neutrinos would travel at, for example, .99999997 c or .99999995 c, etc., and this variation in speed, however slight, should be detectable.

So let us again turn to the 1987a supernova data. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova_1987A

In this observation, a star core collapsed and released a lot of energy. Most of the excess energy is predicted in theory to be radiated away in a massive burst of neutrinos/anti-neutrinos formed from pair-production, and these neutrinos would be of all 3 flavors.

"The light from the supernova reached Earth on February 23, 1987." ... "Approximately three hours before the visible light from SN 1987A reached the Earth, a burst of neutrinos was observed at three separate neutrino observatories. This is likely due to neutrino emission (which occurs simultaneously with core collapse) preceding the emission of visible light (which occurs only after the shock wave reaches the stellar surface). At 7:35 a.m. Universal time, Kamiokande II detected 11 antineutrinos, IMB 8 antineutrinos and Baksan 5 antineutrinos, in a burst lasting less than 13 seconds."

In other words, these neutrinos travelled a total distance of 5.3 X 10^12 light seconds (168,000 light years), all originating at roughly the same time (within about a 10 second burst of neutrino emission), and all arrived at earth (the light-transit time of earth's diameter is less than 1 second, and is not a factor due to the spacing of the detectors) within about 10 seconds of each other. In other words, they all travelled at close to the same speed to within 12 orders of magnitude, far greater than any other measurement precision ever made for the speed of light. And, they all travelled at very close to the speed of light (travelling the same distance as the photons at a speed consistent to c to within about 1 part per 500 million).

One would expect that since the neutrinos are emitted with potentially a range of energies, that their transit time would have exhibited a range of speeds as mentioned at the start of this discussion. But that is not what was observed. The actual observation is consistent with neutrinos as having zero rest mass, and traveling at c, and inconsistent with having a rest-mass and ejected with a spectrum of varying energies.

It should be further noted, however, that "Approximately three hours earlier, the Mont Blanc liquid scintillator detected a five-neutrino burst, but this is generally not believed to be associated with SN 1987A.".

In other words, during the 1987a burst, 29 neutrinos were counted total (if the first five are counted as part of the burst); 1/6th (5) arrived 3 hours early (though not previously believed to be part of 1987a), and 5/6th (24) arrived at light speed (after taking into consideration the head-start they had over the photons). This might imply that 5 types of neutrinos travel at c, and 1 type travels at slightly above c.

This is all still very confusing, is it not?
 
the atomic theory is wrong. that is a fact. now, we shall construct a new sysytem.

i ponder why physicists try to break eveything down to building blocks. why do they try to find the smallest object?

think of cantors set theory. the smallest object was actually the empty set, containing nothing. could everything constructed out of tiny 'nothings'? and what exactly do we mean by the term nothing?
 
Let us briefly review the history of the discovery of neutrinos.

From Wikipedia: "Historically, the study of beta decay provided the first physical evidence of the neutrino. In 1911 Lise Meitner and Otto Hahn performed an experiment that showed that the energies of electrons emitted by beta decay had a continuous rather than discrete spectrum. This was in apparent contradiction to the law of conservation of energy, as it appeared that energy was lost in the beta decay process. A second problem was that the spin of the Nitrogen-14 atom was 1, in contradiction to the Rutherford prediction of ½.
In 1920-1927, Charles Drummond Ellis (along with James Chadwick and colleagues) established clearly that the beta decay spectrum is really continuous, ending all controversies.
In a famous letter written in 1930 Wolfgang Pauli suggested that in addition to electrons and protons atoms also contained an extremely light neutral particle which he called the neutron. He suggested that this "neutron" was also emitted during beta decay and had simply not yet been observed. In 1931 Enrico Fermi renamed Pauli's "neutron" to neutrino, and in 1934 Fermi published a very successful model of beta decay in which neutrinos were produced.
[edit]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_decay

"Before the idea of neutrino oscillations came up, it was generally assumed that neutrinos travel at the speed of light. The question of neutrino velocity is closely related to their mass. According to relativity, if neutrinos are massless, they must travel at the speed of light. However, if they carry a mass, they cannot reach the speed of light. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino

In other words, in order to conserve both momentum and energy during beta decay, the theoretical particle called a 'neutrino' was predicted. It was presumed that the neutrino either travelled at the speed of light and had zero rest mass (most dominant theory until the 1980s) but momentum (analogous to the electromagnetic photon, speed of light, momentum, but zero rest mass); or else it travelled at near-relativistic speeds with very small rest-mass. (less popular and unproven).

However, with the apparent discovery of neutrino oscillation, it became popular though not universal to assert that neutrinos have a very small rest mass: "Neutrinos are most often created or detected with a well defined flavor (electron, muon, tau). However, in a phenomenon known as neutrino flavor oscillation, neutrinos are able to oscillate between the three available flavors while they propagate through space. Specifically, this occurs because the neutrino flavor eigenstates are not the same as the neutrino mass eigenstates (simply called 1, 2, 3). This allows for a neutrino that was produced as an electron neutrino at a given location to have a calculable probability to be detected as either a muon or tau neutrino after it has traveled to another location. This quantum mechanical effect was first hinted by the discrepancy between the number of electron neutrinos detected from the Sun's core failing to match the expected numbers, dubbed as the "solar neutrino problem". In the Standard Model the existence of flavor oscillations implies nonzero differences between the neutrino masses, because the amount of mixing between neutrino flavors at a given time depends on the differences in their squared-masses. There are other possibilities in which neutrino can oscillate even if they are massless. If Lorentz invariance is not an exact symmetry, neutrinos can experience Lorentz-violating oscillations."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino

Thus, observed oscillations in 'flavor' (type of neutrino based on origin source) suggested that neutrinos had a small rest mass, and therefore according to Einstein had to travel at less than c. But do they?

"Lorentz-violating neutrino oscillation refers to the quantum phenomenon of neutrino oscillations described in a framework that allows the breakdown of Lorentz invariance. Today, neutrino oscillation or change of one type of neutrino into another is an experimentally verified fact; however, the details of the underlying theory responsible for these processes remain an open issue and an active field of study. The conventional model of neutrino oscillations assumes that neutrinos are massive, which provides a successful description of a wide variety of experiments; however, there are a few oscillation signals that cannot be accommodated within this model, which motivates the study of other descriptions. In a theory with Lorentz violation neutrinos can oscillate with and without masses and many other novel effects described below appear. The generalization of the theory by incorporating Lorentz violation has shown to provide alternative scenarios to explain all the established experimental data through the construction of global models." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz-violating_neutrino_oscillations

If they have a rest mass, and travel at near-c but slightly below c, there should be a slight variation in their speeds based upon their total energy (most of which would be kinetic energy, not rest-mass energy). In other words, various high-energy neutrinos would travel at, for example, .99999997 c or .99999995 c, etc., and this variation in speed, however slight, should be detectable.

So let us again turn to the 1987a supernova data. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova_1987A

In this observation, a star core collapsed and released a lot of energy. Most of the excess energy is predicted in theory to be radiated away in a massive burst of neutrinos/anti-neutrinos formed from pair-production, and these neutrinos would be of all 3 flavors.

"The light from the supernova reached Earth on February 23, 1987." ... "Approximately three hours before the visible light from SN 1987A reached the Earth, a burst of neutrinos was observed at three separate neutrino observatories. This is likely due to neutrino emission (which occurs simultaneously with core collapse) preceding the emission of visible light (which occurs only after the shock wave reaches the stellar surface). At 7:35 a.m. Universal time, Kamiokande II detected 11 antineutrinos, IMB 8 antineutrinos and Baksan 5 antineutrinos, in a burst lasting less than 13 seconds."

In other words, these neutrinos travelled a total distance of 5.3 X 10^12 light seconds (168,000 light years), all originating at roughly the same time (within about a 10 second burst of neutrino emission), and all arrived at earth (the light-transit time of earth's diameter is less than 1 second, and is not a factor due to the spacing of the detectors) within about 10 seconds of each other. In other words, they all travelled at close to the same speed to within 12 orders of magnitude, far greater than any other measurement precision ever made for the speed of light. And, they all travelled at very close to the speed of light (travelling the same distance as the photons at a speed consistent to c to within about 1 part per 500 million).

One would expect that since the neutrinos are emitted with potentially a range of energies, that their transit time would have exhibited a range of speeds as mentioned at the start of this discussion. But that is not what was observed. The actual observation is consistent with neutrinos as having zero rest mass, and traveling at c, and inconsistent with having a rest-mass and ejected with a spectrum of varying energies.

It should be further noted, however, that "Approximately three hours earlier, the Mont Blanc liquid scintillator detected a five-neutrino burst, but this is generally not believed to be associated with SN 1987A.".

In other words, during the 1987a burst, 29 neutrinos were counted total (if the first five are counted as part of the burst); 1/6th (5) arrived 3 hours early (though not previously believed to be part of 1987a), and 5/6th (24) arrived at light speed (after taking into consideration the head-start they had over the photons). This might imply that 5 types of neutrinos travel at c, and 1 type travels at slightly above c.

This is all still very confusing, is it not?
Yes, confusing to those who know enough to be confused, and interesting to the rest of us, lol.

Your post is most interesting and appreciated. I know what a discrete spectrum is, for example the electromagnetic spectrum is discrete. Can you describe in the most basic language how a continuous spectrum would apply to neutrinos. Is it a spectrum of frequencies that change as the energy of neutrinos change, but the change is continuous with out gaps?

And does the arrival of the five early neutrinos correspond with the increase in speed detected at CERN?
 
I make no claim as having predicted faster than light travel, only that my absolute motion concept is not limited by the new finding.

My system keeps on ticking, and Einstein's bites the dust!!!!

I have a preferred frame, he doesn't. ;)
 
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And does the arrival of the five early neutrinos correspond with the increase in speed detected at CERN?

Simple answer - no.

They were only 3 hours early. Over the distance of some 186,000 light years, that is slightly faster than c by 1 part per 543 million. To correspond with the CERN results (as reported, assuming no systematic error), they would have had to arrive about 3 years early, as CERN results show faster than c by 1 part per 40,000 (about 10,000 times greater). Rather, they are more consistent with Fermilab's discovery of possibly faster-than-c neutrinos referenced in my earlier post. But again, that Fermilab result is also consistent with neutrinos traveling at c, within experimental error.

So the assumption that that short burst 3 hours earlier is not associcated with 1987a remains plausible, but likewise consistent with Fermilab data of neutrinos very slightly faster than c.

Certainly it would be simple to check CERN data if a small bore (1 foot diameter) were drilled connecting the sending and receiving ends of the neutrino apparatus. That would allow for measuring the distance between the two ends accurately with a laser, as well as the timing. Instead, they have to rely on indirect measurements, which is likely where the source of their probable error arises. However, drilling a hole that long, and at a maximum depth of some 12 kilometers, would be a formidable challenge. One could try to drill from opposite ends, but it would be difficult to get them to meet. Or, drill from one end, and be off at the other from the target by several meters? That wouldn't be too bad. At a drilling cost of some $20,000/mile, it would only cost about $10,000,000; well within a CERN budget. They'll probably be proposing that soon.
 
Simple answer - no.

They were only 3 hours early. Over the distance of some 186,000 light years, that is slightly faster than c by 1 part per 543 million. To correspond with the CERN results (as reported, assuming no systematic error), they would have had to arrive about 3 years early, as CERN results show faster than c by 1 part per 40,000 (about 10,000 times greater). Rather, they are more consistent with Fermilab's discovery of possibly faster-than-c neutrinos referenced in my earlier post. But again, that Fermilab result is also consistent with neutrinos traveling at c, within experimental error.

So the assumption that that short burst 3 hours earlier is not associcated with 1987a remains plausible, but likewise consistent with Fermilab data of neutrinos very slightly faster than c.

Certainly it would be simple to check CERN data if a small bore (1 foot diameter) were drilled connecting the sending and receiving ends of the neutrino apparatus. That would allow for measuring the distance between the two ends accurately with a laser, as well as the timing. Instead, they have to rely on indirect measurements, which is likely where the source of their probable error arises. However, drilling a hole that long, and at a maximum depth of some 12 kilometers, would be a formidable challenge. One could try to drill from opposite ends, but it would be difficult to get them to meet. Or, drill from one end, and be off at the other from the target by several meters? That wouldn't be too bad. At a drilling cost of some $20,000/mile, it would only cost about $10,000,000; well within a CERN budget. They'll probably be proposing that soon.

There is no reason to drill anything, the neutrinos propagate through the Earth crust.
 
There is no reason to drill anything, the neutrinos propagate through the Earth crust.

Pay attention. The bore hole is not for the neutrinos. It is for a laser beam to shine through it to accurately measure the distance between the two endpoints of the apparatus, which distance measurement is currently based on indirect methods.
 
Simple answer - no.

They were only 3 hours early. Over the distance of some 186,000 light years, that is slightly faster than c by 1 part per 543 million. To correspond with the CERN results (as reported, assuming no systematic error), they would have had to arrive about 3 years early, as CERN results show faster than c by 1 part per 40,000 (about 10,000 times greater). Rather, they are more consistent with Fermilab's discovery of possibly faster-than-c neutrinos referenced in my earlier post. But again, that Fermilab result is also consistent with neutrinos traveling at c, within experimental error.

So the assumption that that short burst 3 hours earlier is not associcated with 1987a remains plausible, but likewise consistent with Fermilab data of neutrinos very slightly faster than c.

Certainly it would be simple to check CERN data if a small bore (1 foot diameter) were drilled connecting the sending and receiving ends of the neutrino apparatus. That would allow for measuring the distance between the two ends accurately with a laser, as well as the timing. Instead, they have to rely on indirect measurements, which is likely where the source of their probable error arises. However, drilling a hole that long, and at a maximum depth of some 12 kilometers, would be a formidable challenge. One could try to drill from opposite ends, but it would be difficult to get them to meet. Or, drill from one end, and be off at the other from the target by several meters? That wouldn't be too bad. At a drilling cost of some $20,000/mile, it would only cost about $10,000,000; well within a CERN budget. They'll probably be proposing that soon.
Edit out the drilling down, lol.
Thank you for the explanation.
 
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Pay attention. The bore hole is not for the neutrinos. It is for a laser beam to shine through it to accurately measure the distance between the two endpoints of the apparatus, which distance measurement is currently based on indirect methods.

The current methods have been proven to be correct with an accuracy of 20 cm, Read the paper.
The 60ns time difference is equivalent to about 18m, about two orders of magnitude larger than the distance measurement precision.
 
The current methods have been proven to be correct with an accuracy of 20 cm, Read the paper.

They are believed "proven". But the method is indirect, and is the likely source of a systematic error. Or else the timing. Both of those potential errors can be removed, and all doubt removed, by having a direct line-of-sight distance measurement and timing measurement.
 
They are believed "proven". But the method is indirect, and is the likely source of a systematic error. Or else the timing. Both of those potential errors can be removed, and all doubt removed, by having a direct line-of-sight distance measurement and timing measurement.

You are way off base, in la-la land. If what you claim is true, GPS would miss routinely by about a block.
 
Walter,

I think that including the five neutrinos arriving earlier at Mont Blanc, was very misleading since no extra early neutrinos were detected at the other sites. Or at least no other noted early bursts were mentioned.

It would generally seem suspect to have any neutrino detector demonstrate detection events, involving astronomical origins, that are not at least to some extent confirmed by other detectors. We may have a variation in sensitivity, or neutrino type from one detector to the next but five out lying events at one detector, just seems.., fishy.

I think excluding them from the SN 1987A event data was a good call.
 
You are way off base, in la-la land. If what you claim is true, GPS would miss by about a block.

No, it would have to miss by a few meters.

So I take it to mean that you believe Relativity is no longer valid, and that they do not have any systematic error, and the issue is settled? Sounds like la la land to me.
 
Walter,

I think that including the five neutrinos arriving earlier at Mont Blanc, was very misleading since no extra early neutrinos were detected at the other sites. Or at least no other noted early bursts were mentioned.

It would generally seem suspect to have any neutrino detector demonstrate detection events, involving astronomical origins, that are not at least to some extent confirmed by other detectors. We may have a variation in sensitivity, or neutrino type from one detector to the next but five out lying events at one detector, just seems.., fishy.

I think excluding them from the SN 1987A event data was a good call.

Agreed. It is statistically improbable (but not impossible) that the early neutrinos were not detected at the other detectors. This implies a non-astronomical source for those neutrinos.

And as I mentioned, they were not an indicator that the CERN data is correct, as they were only 3 hours early, and quite probably not related.

Thanks for the clarification.
 
here's my theory. How do they know that the neutrinos that 'arrived' we the same neutrinoes that were fired off?
 
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