The Speed of Light is Not Constant

No. The clock moves slower. And other things move slower too. Things like light.

So the clock would move slower, radioactive decay would be slower, my metabolism would be slower, my heart would beat slower, sound waves would move slower..etc but this does not mean to you that time is moving slower? It sure LOOKS like time is moving slower. Doesn't it?

Saying that light moves slower in different inertial frames is not what Albert Einstein thought. When you say you agree with Einstein, were you perhaps refering to his great nephew Jimmy Einstein who works at the KFC?
 
Einstein said what he said. End of story.

Pay attention! Einstein said what he said . . , but he did not say it to you. It was a different time and his audience had an entirely different background than even a layperson does today. You read Einstein out of context because you do not consider the time and environment of what he said.

The same or similar is true of most of your ideas. You seem to have made up your mind before you open the book.

From Wiki on Atomic Clocks said:
The actual time-reference of an atomic clock consists of an electronic oscillator operating at microwave frequency. The oscillator is arranged so that its frequency-determining components include an element that can be controlled by a feedback signal. The feedback signal keeps the oscillator tuned in resonance with the frequency of the electronic transition of caesium or rubidium.

Note that the time standard is base on an electronic oscillator . . . and pay special attention to that part in bold...

Farsight, I have never built or worked on an atomic clock, but it does not seem as simple as you suggest.., that it involves only the microwave frequency light emitted!

I always understood that electronic oscillator to be the hyper fine transition rate, I could be wrong but from the above it is not simply the microwave frequency of the emitted light!
 
So the clock would move slower, radioactive decay would be slower, my metabolism would be slower, my heart would beat slower, sound waves would move slower..etc but this does not mean to you that time is moving slower? It sure LOOKS like time is moving slower. Doesn't it?
No, because time isn't moving at all. Read the time travel is science fiction OP. A clock is not some kind of cosmic gas meter with time flowing through it. A clock clocks up some kind of regular cyclic motion. When the clock goes slower, that motion is going slower.

Saying that light moves slower in different inertial frames is not what Albert Einstein thought.
Oh yes he did. That's why I quoted him in the OP.
 
Pay attention! Einstein said what he said . . , but he did not say it to you. It was a different time and his audience had an entirely different background than even a layperson does today. You read Einstein out of context because you do not consider the time and environment of what he said.
Again, he said what he said. Trying to say he didn't or playing the "out of context" card is just specious dismissal.

Note that the time standard is base on an electronic oscillator . . . and pay special attention to that part in bold...
And again, one hyperfine transition event emits a photon with a frequency. The frequency isn't the frequency of the hyperfine transitions. And when you're defining the second you can't refer to frequency because frequency is cycles per second and you have no second until you've counted 9192631770 periods of radiation.
 
No, because time isn't moving at all. Read the time travel is science fiction OP. A clock is not some kind of cosmic gas meter with time flowing through it. A clock clocks up some kind of regular cyclic motion. When the clock goes slower, that motion is going slower.

Oh, I see absolutely EVERTHING is slower; except time. This is either some sort of semanitics problem you are having or you are horribly confused about reality.

Oh yes he did. That's why I quoted him in the OP.

Wow, all of these millions that were educated about Special Relativity are wrong and all because that darn Einstein never went back and corrected his paper! We all know one of the postulates in his paper on Special Relativity was that the speed of light is constant in all inertial frames and now you find out he decided he was wrong and he never went back and changed it! Well golly, that is just unforgivable.

Of course I suppose there another possiblity, which is that you are wrong and confused. Hmmm, are you wrong and confused or did Eistein change his mind about Special Relativity and just elected to not to correct it. Boy, that's a real toughy!!!:rolleyes:
 
Oh, I see absolutely EVERTHING is slower; except time. This is either some sort of semanitics problem you are having or you are horribly confused about reality.
I'm not at all confused. See A World without Time: The Forgotten Legacy of Godel and Einstein. There is no actual time passing or flowing. Like I said, a clock doesn't literally measure the passage of time or the flow of time like it's some kind of gas meter. A clock clocks up motion. That's the reality.

Wow, all of these millions that were educated about Special Relativity are wrong and all because that darn Einstein never went back and corrected his paper! We all know one of the postulates in his paper on Special Relativity was that the speed of light is constant in all inertial frames and now you find out he decided he was wrong and he never went back and changed it! Well golly, that is just unforgivable.
GR subsumes SR, you've been taught a cargo-cult pastiche of relativity, and I'm trying to put you straight.
 
I'm not at all confused. See A World without Time: The Forgotten Legacy of Godel and Einstein. There is no actual time passing or flowing. Like I said, a clock doesn't literally measure the passage of time or the flow of time like it's some kind of gas meter. A clock clocks up motion. That's the reality.

GR subsumes SR, you've been taught a cargo-cult pastiche of relativity, and I'm trying to put you straight.

I'm thinking you have a 'wiki' physics education and will never be swayed in your belief, so I guess all I can say is, enjoy the fantasy that you and you alone have penetated the 'truthiness' of relativity. Clearly, any further discussion is a waste of time.
 
Hmm... so all known processes slow by the same amount? Wouldn't it be nice to have a device that measures the rate of those processes and a name for that thing that that device measures, against which the rate is determined...?
 
Again, he said what he said. Trying to say he didn't or playing the "out of context" card is just specious dismissal.

And again, one hyperfine transition event emits a photon with a frequency. The frequency isn't the frequency of the hyperfine transitions. And when you're defining the second you can't refer to frequency because frequency is cycles per second and you have no second until you've counted 9192631770 periods of radiation.

And how was that number, 9192631770, derived?

Didn't you ever stop and wonder why they used that and not 10,000,000,000 or 9,000,000,000?

Because that's the number of periods of oscillation that have the same duration as 1/86,400 of a day, each period of oscillation has a duration of 1.3x10[sup]-15[/sup] days, or, somewhere on the order of 3x10[sup]-18[/sup] of the time it took the earth to move around the sun in 1900.
 
Hmm... so all known processes slow by the same amount? Wouldn't it be nice to have a device that measures the rate of those processes and a name for that thing that that device measures, against which the rate is determined...?

It is just amazing the corner that farsight has put himself in, ain't it? Not that he would ever admit it....
 
It is just amazing the corner that farsight has put himself in, ain't it? Not that he would ever admit it....
I'll let him out:
I'll name the device a "clok" and call the thing it reads "tyme" - in units of "secants". That way, in casual conversation and in the math, nothing needs to change. Then Farsight can claim, with plausible deniability, that "time" doesn't exist even when using it in discussion and using the "t" in equations.

Sample conversation:
Farsight: Time does not exist, only motion.
Me: What are the units of motion?
Farsight: Meters per secant!
 
The point is przyk, that the speed of light varies in the room you're in. This is what the OP makes plain. Since coordinates are an artefact, we can strike out your first complaint.

No, this reinforces my first complaint! The coordinate speed of light and its variation is only ever given with respect to coordinate systems, which as you yourself point out are nothing more than a man-made artefact. You can change the coordinate speed of light as easily as you can change the coordinate system. That is a reason to disregard the coordinate speed of light as a useful physical quantity in GR.


We can strike out your second complaint because in SR the speed of light is constant, and you only observe it not to be when you accelerate.

Which means it isn't always constant. In fact, that's exactly the example from SR I had in mind. This, again, only reinforces my second point.


We can also strike out your third complaint because it is enough to construct the metric for a static spherical body.

Which is useless for the real world. The gravitational field throughout the universe we live in is neither static nor spherically symmetric.


It's no ad-hominem. I will repeat it. You dismiss what Einstein said and the evidence because it doesn't tally with what you've been taught.

That is a baseless insult.

The simple fact is that Einstein was a perfectly capable technical writer and his work is readily available to anyone who wants to read it. It's not hidden away in some underground vault that only you have access to. It wasn't buried in peat for 90 years until you found it. Einstein did not write his work in some secret language that only you understand. He did not appoint you as his prophet when he died. I can see how Einstein formulated his theory, and I can see how you are describing it here, and they don't match in a lot of important respects. I am far from the only person capable of seeing that. You're going to have to deal with that sometime.

Or don't. Keep slinging mud at the physics community and see where that gets you.


And in that very section he says this: "Therefore the clock goes slowly when it is placed in the neighbourhood of ponderable masses".

...with respect to the coordinate system he was using, and modulo all the caveats I've already pointed out to you.


And all observers will agree that the lower clock goes slower and the light bends down.

All observers? Einstein never proves any such thing from his theory.
 
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Yes, but don't forget that a worldline is not something real. Nor is a coordinate system.

I haven't said anything that requires coordinates to be real. It's just a simple fact that 1) we need coordinates for various practical reasons, 2) coordinate-dependent statements are very sensitive to the choice of coordinate system, and 3) Einstein used coordinates, and many of the statements you quote by Einstein on the speed of light and time dilation are, in fact, only true in the particular coordinate systems Einstein worked them out in.


I haven't downplayed it. See gravity works like this where I say the Riemann-curvature rubber-sheet analogy is depicting the varying speed of light.

I've already told you that the rubber sheet analogy is, at best, a gross oversimplification of the Riemannian geometry Einstein formulated general relativity in terms of. It's little more than a simple picture we show kids. Case in point: it only depicts curvature in space instead of spacetime. That's important, because the weak field metric (that we recover Newtonian gravity as well as some GR effects like time dilation from) is actually intrinsically flat in its spatial sections. The spatial part is just the Euclidean metric of flat space, and it's only in allowing some curvature in spacetime when you bring the time dimension into consideration that you recover Newtonian gravity and gravitational time dilation. Your thread OP has no basis in how Riemannian geometry is actually used in GR. Concerning the Riemann curvature itself, Einstein already explained its basic significance better and more accurately than you do in your thread:

Albert Einstein said:
The mathematical importance of this tensor is as follows: If the continuum is of such a nature that there is a co-ordinate system with reference to which the $$g_{\mu\nu}$$ are constants, then all the $$B^{\rho}_{\mu\sigma\tau}$$ vanish. If we choose any new system of co-ordinates in place of the original ones, the $$g_{\mu\nu}$$ referred thereto will not be constants, but in consequence of its tensor nature, the transformed components of $$B^{\rho}_{\mu\sigma\tau}$$ will still vanish in the new system. Thus the vanishing of the Riemann tensor is a necessary condition that, by an appropriate choice of the system of reference, the $$g_{\mu\nu}$$ may be constants. In our problem this corresponds to the case in which,* with a suitable choice of the system of reference, the special theory of relativity holds good for a finite region of the continuum.

--------------------

* The mathematicians have proved that this is also a sufficient condition.

Of course, by "mathematicians" in the footnote, Einstein is referring to the mathematicians who worked on and proved theorems about Riemannian geometry, and that's where you should go if you want to learn more about the Riemann and other curvature tensors than Einstein covers in his own paper. Needless to say, there's nothing in Einstein's paper or any of the mathematical literature about the Riemann curvature (a tensor with 20 independent components!) being obtainable by a simple plot of clock rates.


I try not to have any beliefs.

Your track record says otherwise. You have expressed strong beliefs on space, time, light, gravity, time travel, electromagnetism, and other topics, usually without the slightest hint you're open to the possibility you might be wrong in any of your beliefs. Instead of "proposed explanation of gravity" and "I've shown X under condition Y, in future I hope to generalise what I've shown here to Z", with you it's "Gravity works like this". Case closed.

Since we're having fun quoting science celebrities anyway, let's bring in Richard Hamming, who gave a famous speech in 1986 on effective research habits based on his over 40 years of research experience. Contrast your own attitude with what Hamming has to say about really good researchers:

Richard Hamming said:
There's another trait on the side which I want to talk about; that trait is ambiguity. It took me a while to discover its importance. Most people like to believe something is or is not true. Great scientists tolerate ambiguity very well. They believe the theory enough to go ahead; they doubt it enough to notice the errors and faults so they can step forward and create the new replacement theory. If you believe too much you'll never notice the flaws; if you doubt too much you won't get started. It requires a lovely balance. But most great scientists are well aware of why their theories are true and they are also well aware of some slight misfits which don't quite fit and they don't forget it.
 
The coordinate speed of light and its variation is only ever given in with respect to coordinate systems, which as you yourself point out are nothing more than a man-made artefact. You can change the coordinate speed of light as easily as you can change the coordinate system. That is a reason to disregard the coordinate speed of light as a useful physical quantity in GR.

That is an equally valid reason for discarding the 'coordinate system' itself, and concentrating instead solely on the real local GR locations/gravity-well altitude effects on the two clocks that are observable and measurable/compared directly/locally.

Please see my earlier post to you and Farsight (#225) where removing all the non-essentials is the only way you two will ever get 'on the same page' as a starting point for further discussion on this particular aspect. Good luck to you both and enjoy your discussion.
 
So the clock would move slower, radioactive decay would be slower, my metabolism would be slower, my heart would beat slower, sound waves would move slower..etc but this does not mean to you that time is moving slower? It sure LOOKS like time is moving slower. Doesn't it?

Saying that light moves slower in different inertial frames is not what Albert Einstein thought. When you say you agree with Einstein, were you perhaps refering to his great nephew Jimmy Einstein who works at the KFC?

The only observable is motion/cycles, not 'time' abstraction FROM that motion/cycle information sets/comparisons. Where have you been? You have missed all the new perspectives about 'time' as a philosophical/abstract 'overlay' on what the motion/cyclic observable dynamics produce that we then 'graph' and 'compare' in an abstract math model.

Think about it: If the clock rates are affected LOCALLY by GR (as is observed and as predicted by Einstein's GR) depending on locally applicable gravity-well altitude(s), then what does that do for the LOCALLY 'measured/calculated' speed of light when using the different clock rates to do the local measurement/calculation within the two clocks respective location altitudes?

Your 'believing' in some philosophical abstraction from motion/cycles which you later label 'time', does not answer the reality of what is happening locally in the two GR well locations/clocks and the speed of light measurements/calculations dependent on those two locally differing clock rates.
 
On the same page? With Farsight?

This is the last sentence of the, Richard Hamming, quote:

But most great scientists are well aware of why their theories are true and they are also well aware of some slight misfits which don't quite fit and they don't forget it.:

This is what I said to, Farsight, in post 2:

Since you have no math, how do you even convince yourself of the things you say?

Care to guess on how they would be at all related?
 
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